Starving tortoise for two days a week to stop pyramiding worsening.

Honey001

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So lately my two year old Hermann has started to be pyramiding quite quickly. He already had a bit of pyramiding when I got him at 1 year old as his previous owner had no idea how to care for a tortoise but it’s noticeably been getting more bad lately. Of course I started going through the list of things that could cause it and the only thing I can think is wrong is that I’m feeding him too much. I’ve seen that it’s best to not feet them for two days a week and so I’ve decided to not feed him every three days. Can someone tell me if I’m doing this right and any advice is welcome!
 

Honey001

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The simple answer is he's being kept too dry. Pyramiding has to do with moisture and humidity, not diet and over eating.
His humidity has been fine for as long as I can remember. And I have started to soak him everyday instead of once a week. Do you think he will be okay? I really wouldn’t be able to cope if anything happened to him
 

Tom

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His humidity has been fine for as long as I can remember.
No it hasn't, or he wouldn't be pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It is not caused by food. The rest of the info wherever you read that rubbish about starving your tortoise is probably also wrong.

Pyramiding can also be cause by using spot bulbs or mercury vapor lamps, even when humidity is good.

The pyramiding won't harm him, but starving him might.

Please give this a read. There is a care sheet for your species at the bottom too:
 

Honey001

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No it hasn't, or he wouldn't be pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It is not caused by food. The rest of the info wherever you read that rubbish about starving your tortoise is probably also wrong.

Pyramiding can also be cause by using spot bulbs or mercury vapor lamps, even when humidity is good.

The pyramiding won't harm him, but starving him might.

Please give this a read. There is a care sheet for your species at the bottom too:
I have just checked and I am using the correct lights. Everywhere i read there is always conflicting info and I don’t know who to believe. So I shouldn’t be starving him for two days a week at all? Also how does pyramiding not harm them? I thought it messed up their spines and lungs. And thankyou for link I will read it all through!
 

ZEROPILOT

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I have just checked and I am using the correct lights. Everywhere i read there is always conflicting info and I don’t know who to believe. So I shouldn’t be starving him for two days a week at all? Also how does pyramiding not harm them? I thought it messed up their spines and lungs. And thankyou for link I will read it all through!
You won't hear very many contradictory things here on this forum. And I would 100% ignore EVERYTHING I hear elsewhere.
Let's start with the lighting and heating...
Can you photograph them?
Your pyramiding IS CAUSED by lack of humidity. Nothing else causes it. Let us help you find out why this is an issue.
Photos of your enclosure, etc can help tremendously since without them we're just tossing guesses out there.
Do not starve your tortoise. Whomever suggested that has no idea what they're doing
 

wellington

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Stop starving your tortoise that is bad for him. In the wild he would eat every day that he finds food. Stop thinking the info you got before finding this forum is good info, it's not!
Give us a run down of the temps, day, night and basking?
What is the actual humidity?
Lighting using and heat using?
Size of enclosure?
Diet?
We need actual info not just that it's all good. If we are to help you, we need the info
 

Tom

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I have just checked and I am using the correct lights. Everywhere i read there is always conflicting info and I don’t know who to believe. So I shouldn’t be starving him for two days a week at all? Also how does pyramiding not harm them? I thought it messed up their spines and lungs. And thankyou for link I will read it all through!
Correct according to who? The thread that I linked for you should help you understand what we are saying and why we are saying it. Let's converse again after you've had a chance to read it.

No. You should not be starving the tortoise any days of the week. That won't kill them, but in no way is it "good" for them, and it certainly has nothing to do with pyramiding. That is old wrong info from a source that has no idea what they are talking about.

Pyramiding does no harm to their spine or lungs. You (Or someone else...) are confusing pyramiding with MBD (metabolic bone disease). Pyramiding does cause malformation of the bones that make up the carapace, but except in severe cases, it does not do any harm. It is cosmetic.
 

Honey001

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Stop starving your tortoise that is bad for him. In the wild he would eat every day that he finds food. Stop thinking the info you got before finding this forum is good info, it's not!
Give us a run down of the temps, day, night and basking?
What is the actual humidity?
Lighting using and heat using?
Size of enclosure?
Diet?
We need actual info not just that it's all good. If we are to help you, we need the info
So here’s all the info: (sorry it’s very long🙏🏻)
Basking temp= 35.1

Cool side= 18

Humidity= 36% , every other day I pour water in the substrate under the lamp

Lamp is 100W and is 300mm from ground.

UVI is 24W 12% 550mm and was recently changed about two months ago.

Substrate is a mix of coco coir and ProRep and in his upper hide he has aspen wood.

Substrate at bottom is about five inches deep and the aspen fills the upper hide.

The reason for the aspen is because this is what he had as a baby and is the only substrate he will burrow deep into.

His diet consists mostly of all types of cabbage, lettuce, watercress, rocket and dandelion leaves with the ProRep Tortoise Food with Calcium and Vitamin D3 mixed into it and I will sprinkle calcium on top usually once a day because he really hates the calcium dust.

I feed him usually about three times a day. once in the morning when lights go on, the second when i put him back after his roaming time and usually once again in the afternoon when he has eaten all his food or it had dried out or he has stomped it all over the place.

I get him out of his enclosure once a day in the colder months only for an hour where i keep a close eye on him and in the warmer months he has an outside enclosure which i put him in for most of the day.

I used to bathe him once a week however i have recently started doing it everyday. I can only soak him for about five minutes as he gets very stressed out. i have tried different techniques but nothing will get him to enjoy being in water.

His lights get switched on at 7:30am and it will usually take him about an hour to come out of his burrow and start to bask. He will usually take himself to bed at around 5pm and i will switch his lights off from about 6:30 to 8pm. He has a heat mat that i place out of reach from him at night.

His enclosure is 115cm x 49cm x 46cm.

I’m always looking for more enrichment ideas so any suggestions or hacks are welcome.

I’ve attached pictures of him and his enclosure.

Thankyou for your help
 

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Honey001

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Location (City and/or State)
Birmingham UK
Correct according to who? The thread that I linked for you should help you understand what we are saying and why we are saying it. Let's converse again after you've had a chance to read it.

No. You should not be starving the tortoise any days of the week. That won't kill them, but in no way is it "good" for them, and it certainly has nothing to do with pyramiding. That is old wrong info from a source that has no idea what they are talking about.

Pyramiding does no harm to their spine or lungs. You (Or someone else...) are confusing pyramiding with MBD (metabolic bone disease). Pyramiding does cause malformation of the bones that make up the carapace, but except in severe cases, it does not do any harm. It is cosmetic.
Hi I’ve replied to another comment with all the information about my tortoise if you want to read it!
 

Tom

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Cool side= 18
18C is okay for an over night low, but that is too cool during the day. Cold ambient temperatures cause excessive basking under carapace desiccating lamps, which causes pyramiding.

Humidity= 36% , every other day I pour water in the substrate under the lamp
This is FAR too low for a baby of any species. Should be more like 70-80% while they are growing. This is the primary reason for the pyramiding. You got told the wrong info from whoever told you how to care for your tortoise.

Substrate is a mix of coco coir and ProRep and in his upper hide he has aspen wood.
Coco coir is fine, but it needs to be a thick, hand packed layer and it needs to be kept damp by dumping water into it. If ProRep has sand or soil in it, it should not be used. Aspen is much too dry and should not be used.

His diet consists mostly of all types of cabbage, lettuce, watercress, rocket and dandelion leaves with the ProRep Tortoise Food with Calcium and Vitamin D3 mixed into it and I will sprinkle calcium on top usually once a day because he really hates the calcium dust.
Try for more broadleaf weeds and less grocery store fare. Mulberry and grape vine leaves are great too. The best tortoise food is not found in the grocery store. Calcium should only be supplemented twice a week in most cases. Every day is too much. It interferes with the absorption of other important mineral and trace elements. They can certainly use some extra calcium, but not every day.

UVI is 24W 12% 550mm and was recently changed about two months ago.
Do you have a meter? A meter is the only way to know if you are getting enough UV and how often to change your bulbs. A 12% HO tube only need to run for a few hours mid day. It shouldn't be on all day for 12+ hours. That is not natural and can cause problems.

I feed him usually about three times a day. once in the morning when lights go on, the second when i put him back after his roaming time and usually once again in the afternoon when he has eaten all his food or it had dried out or he has stomped it all over the place.
Three times a day isn't necessary. Sink a terra cotta saucer into the substrate and put food in once a day. Its okay if it wilts, and they all drag it around. There is no harm in it if you want to feed three times a day.

Roaming time? They should never be loose on the floor. This isn't safe and cannot be made safe.

Lamp is 100W and is 300mm from ground.
This looks like an "Intense Basking Spot Bulb" sold at most pet shops. Its the wrong kind of bulb to use for a tortoise and it causes pyramiding. Have you tested the temp under it by laying a digital thermometer under it and letting it cook for an hour or more? A 100 watt spot bulb at that height could be a big contributor to pyramiding.

I get him out of his enclosure once a day in the colder months only for an hour where i keep a close eye on him and in the warmer months he has an outside enclosure which i put him in for most of the day.
Where do you do this? On the floor in the house? This isn't safe. Make his enclosure large enough to meet his exercise needs.

I used to bathe him once a week however i have recently started doing it everyday. I can only soak him for about five minutes as he gets very stressed out. i have tried different techniques but nothing will get him to enjoy being in water.
He doesn't need to enjoy being in the water. He just needs to be in the water for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the whole time. All the scrambling to get out is good exercise. Tortoise treadmill. This is MUCH better than roaming the cold dangerous floor.

His lights get switched on at 7:30am and it will usually take him about an hour to come out of his burrow and start to bask. He will usually take himself to bed at around 5pm and i will switch his lights off from about 6:30 to 8pm. He has a heat mat that i place out of reach from him at night.
Put the lights on a timer set for 12-13 hours if you don't want to brumate him. They should be coming on and off at the same time daily. Gradual seasonal changes are fine when needed, but it should be consistent day to day.

His enclosure is 115cm x 49cm x 46cm.
This size is okay to start a baby, but it is much too small now. 122x244cm is the minimum needed, and having a viv that size, as opposed to an open topped table, will make it much easier to control the environmental parameters that you need.

All of this and more is contained in this thread right here:

There is a lot of bad info out there ad almost everyone gets taught all the wrong things and sold all the wrong stuff. But now you've got the right info. Questions and conversation are welcome. I know you've been told other info, and I'm happy to explain the difference. :)
 

Honey001

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Mar 30, 2022
Messages
28
Location (City and/or State)
Birmingham UK
18C is okay for an over night low, but that is too cool during the day. Cold ambient temperatures cause excessive basking under carapace desiccating lamps, which causes pyramiding.


This is FAR too low for a baby of any species. Should be more like 70-80% while they are growing. This is the primary reason for the pyramiding. You got told the wrong info from whoever told you how to care for your tortoise.


Coco coir is fine, but it needs to be a thick, hand packed layer and it needs to be kept damp by dumping water into it. If ProRep has sand or soil in it, it should not be used. Aspen is much too dry and should not be used.


Try for more broadleaf weeds and less grocery store fare. Mulberry and grape vine leaves are great too. The best tortoise food is not found in the grocery store. Calcium should only be supplemented twice a week in most cases. Every day is too much. It interferes with the absorption of other important mineral and trace elements. They can certainly use some extra calcium, but not every day.


Do you have a meter? A meter is the only way to know if you are getting enough UV and how often to change your bulbs. A 12% HO tube only need to run for a few hours mid day. It shouldn't be on all day for 12+ hours. That is not natural and can cause problems.


Three times a day isn't necessary. Sink a terra cotta saucer into the substrate and put food in once a day. Its okay if it wilts, and they all drag it around. There is no harm in it if you want to feed three times a day.

Roaming time? They should never be loose on the floor. This isn't safe and cannot be made safe.


This looks like an "Intense Basking Spot Bulb" sold at most pet shops. Its the wrong kind of bulb to use for a tortoise and it causes pyramiding. Have you tested the temp under it by laying a digital thermometer under it and letting it cook for an hour or more? A 100 watt spot bulb at that height could be a big contributor to pyramiding.


Where do you do this? On the floor in the house? This isn't safe. Make his enclosure large enough to meet his exercise needs.


He doesn't need to enjoy being in the water. He just needs to be in the water for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the whole time. All the scrambling to get out is good exercise. Tortoise treadmill. This is MUCH better than roaming the cold dangerous floor.


Put the lights on a timer set for 12-13 hours if you don't want to brumate him. They should be coming on and off at the same time daily. Gradual seasonal changes are fine when needed, but it should be consistent day to day.


This size is okay to start a baby, but it is much too small now. 122x244cm is the minimum needed, and having a viv that size, as opposed to an open topped table, will make it much easier to control the environmental parameters that you need.

All of this and more is contained in this thread right here:

There is a lot of bad info out there ad almost everyone gets taught all the wrong things and sold all the wrong stuff. But now you've got the right info. Questions and conversation are welcome. I know you've been told other info, and I'm happy to explain the difference. :)
Thankyou so much for all the info and I will definitely take all of it and make the changes needed! I think the first thing I will need to do is get him a bigger enclosure and I will make it as big as possible which should be slightly bigger then the measurements you gave me. I just wanted to ask what your opinion on people turning large bookshelves into an enclosure is? It’s just I don’t have the money to buy a custom one or build completely from scratch so I think flipping a bookshelf would be my only option. Will that be okay or do you have any other suggestions?
 

Honey001

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Joined
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
Birmingham UK
Thankyou so much for all the info and I will definitely take all of it and make the changes needed! I think the first thing I will need to do is get him a bigger enclosure and I will make it as big as possible which should be slightly bigger then the measurements you gave me. I just wanted to ask what your opinion on people turning large bookshelves into an enclosure is? It’s just I don’t have the money to buy a custom one or build completely from scratch so I think flipping a bookshelf would be my only option. Will that be okay or do you have any other suggestions?
Also what is your opinion on multiple levels on an enclosure? Like if I put one on top of the other and built a ramp so he has double the floor space.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
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Thankyou so much for all the info and I will definitely take all of it and make the changes needed! I think the first thing I will need to do is get him a bigger enclosure and I will make it as big as possible which should be slightly bigger then the measurements you gave me. I just wanted to ask what your opinion on people turning large bookshelves into an enclosure is? It’s just I don’t have the money to buy a custom one or build completely from scratch so I think flipping a bookshelf would be my only option. Will that be okay or do you have any other suggestions?
I've never seen a book shelf that could work. The backs are too weak and the sides are too low. By the time you reinforce everything, it would have been easier and cheaper to build from scratch. Also, bookshelves tend to be made with particle board and melamine, which will disintegrate when it gets wet. WHEN it gets wet, not if...

I'm not a fan of multilevel enclosures. I've dabbled with it and never found it appealing or useful. It can be done right, and I don't think there is anything "bad" about it, but not my cup of tea.
 

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