Substrate for 9 month old Ibera Greek?

mrsbotero912

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Hello!
Apollo is about 9 months old, apx 5.2cm long, and has been on 100% coco coir since I got him. He LOVES burrowing into it when he goes to sleep for the night.
I'm thinking of mixing in something else that's not quite so messy, and possibly switching over completely eventually. The most common recommendation I see is cypress mulch - would this one work well to mix with the coco coir and eventually use on its own?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KZDT1R0/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Possible concerns I recall reading about before I first got him were that the more uneven surface could put more stress on a baby's legs when walking around rather than a smooth surface of coco coir, and also risk of them trying to eat the substrate since it's more separated pieces.
Are these valid concerns, or should the cypress mulch in the link above be OK?

Thank you in advance!
 

Yvonne G

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You can get fir bark at chewy.com and it's a much better surface to walk on. It's called Reptibark and it comes in a 24 quart bag.
 

mrsbotero912

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You can get fir bark at chewy.com and it's a much better surface to walk on. It's called Reptibark and it comes in a 24 quart bag.

I'm looking at getting this from PetSmart - but I see a few different reviews about there being bugs in it.... is that a common problem with this product??
 

GBtortoises

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The best substrate for baby and young tortoises is organic potting or topsoil. It can be purchased at home centers and is very inexpensive. I have used it for several years to keep hundreds of baby tortoises on with no negative issues whatsoever. Being a soil, not a wood by product it holds moisture very well (for body hydration), it compacts to allow for good footing (muscle development) but it also allows for digging and burrowing into which is important for baby tortoises for security and for body moisture and temperature retention. It is also very easy to spot clean. Wood based substrates which include bark products tend to be too dry can create airborne dust which can be inhaled. Even when sprayed they dry out too quickly and in some cases can harbor mold spores. Bark products are also not solid, they move when the tortoise steps which does not provide good leg muscle development. Bark products are also more difficult to spot clean because wastes runs down in between the pieces rather than sitting on top. This makes the substrate more susceptible to mold and bacteria growth. In many cases some bark products are simply too big for a small tortoise to easily maneuver around on too.
 

mrsbotero912

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The best substrate for baby and young tortoises is organic potting or topsoil. It can be purchased at home centers and is very inexpensive. I have used it for several years to keep hundreds of baby tortoises on with no negative issues whatsoever. Being a soil, not a wood by product it holds moisture very well (for body hydration), it compacts to allow for good footing (muscle development) but it also allows for digging and burrowing into which is important for baby tortoises for security and for body moisture and temperature retention. It is also very easy to spot clean. Wood based substrates which include bark products tend to be too dry can create airborne dust which can be inhaled. Even when sprayed they dry out too quickly and in some cases can harbor mold spores. Bark products are also not solid, they move when the tortoise steps which does not provide good leg muscle development. Bark products are also more difficult to spot clean because wastes runs down in between the pieces rather than sitting on top. This makes the substrate more susceptible to mold and bacteria growth. In many cases some bark products are simply too big for a small tortoise to easily maneuver around on too.
Thanks! Is there anything that makes one option better than the other between soil, coco coir, or a mixture of the two?
 

Tom

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Soil should never be used as a substrate under tortoises. This is an old way of doing it and we know better now. Bought in a bag soil is made of composted yard waste. It can be anything, and it can be toxic plants or contain toxic yard chemicals. The makers and sellers don't intend for little animals to live on it. The very act of "compositing" is mold, fungi and bacteria breaking down organic material. The wood mulch and bark based substrates recommended are recommended SPECIFICALLY because they inhibit mold, fungus and bacterial growth.

Coco coir, orchid bark and cypress mulch all absorb water just as well as soil.

Soil is made of damp dirt and decomposing organic matter. Nothing gets more dusty than dry dirt. Any type of substrate for a baby needs to be kept damp, so dust should not be an issue with any of them.

Sometimes the cypress mulch bought in bulk will be made of irregular pieces and some pieces that are too large. If you choose to use this substrate, you'll have to asses the particle size for your self, and this is one of the reason cypress is not my favorite. Fine grade orchid bark is all fairly uniform in size and provides an excellent walking surface for baby tortoises. For decades I've been raising babies of all species on it.

I used to use soil. I used to use soil/sand mixes. These are what the "experts" of yesteryear all recommended and I followed their advice. I've tried just about everything there is, and along the way I've seen the good and bad points of each. Nothing works better than Coco coir, fine grade orchid bark or cypress mulch. These three offer the most benefit and least risk. Coco coir is messy, and cypress mulch is sometime lacking uniformity, and this is why orchid bark is mr clear preference for most situations.

Some people get into a habit of using one thing or another because that is what they were taught, and it seems to work well enough for them. That is what I did. Some people are unwilling to try or learn new things, and just stick with the old info until it causes them a problem. What they fail to realize is that other people, in other parts of the world, might have problems caused by what they are recommending. I bought some soil from Lowes, filled my planter/outdoor sunning enclosure with it, grew some great greens in it, and then put some baby tortoises in there for some sun, grazing and exercise. I noticed one of the babies eating something on the ground. Upon further inspection, the baby was eating a partially decomposed Jacaranda leaf. Jacaranda is toxic. I removed it from the babies mouth and removed the babies from the soil. If I had not noticed the baby eating that leaf, it could have died. There is no way to know what toxic plants or chemicals your neighbors are putting in their greens bins, and so no way to know what is in that bag of soil you are buying at the store. Not a risk I'm willing to take, even if someone has has been gambling that way for years and has not yet had a problem, or hasn't attributed a problem they've had to that cause.
 

mrsbotero912

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Soil should never be used as a substrate under tortoises. This is an old way of doing it and we know better now. Bought in a bag soil is made of composted yard waste. It can be anything, and it can be toxic plants or contain toxic yard chemicals. The makers and sellers don't intend for little animals to live on it. The very act of "compositing" is mold, fungi and bacteria breaking down organic material. The wood mulch and bark based substrates recommended are recommended SPECIFICALLY because they inhibit mold, fungus and bacterial growth.

Coco coir, orchid bark and cypress mulch all absorb water just as well as soil.

Soil is made of damp dirt and decomposing organic matter. Nothing gets more dusty than dry dirt. Any type of substrate for a baby needs to be kept damp, so dust should not be an issue with any of them.

Sometimes the cypress mulch bought in bulk will be made of irregular pieces and some pieces that are too large. If you choose to use this substrate, you'll have to asses the particle size for your self, and this is one of the reason cypress is not my favorite. Fine grade orchid bark is all fairly uniform in size and provides an excellent walking surface for baby tortoises. For decades I've been raising babies of all species on it.

I used to use soil. I used to use soil/sand mixes. These are what the "experts" of yesteryear all recommended and I followed their advice. I've tried just about everything there is, and along the way I've seen the good and bad points of each. Nothing works better than Coco coir, fine grade orchid bark or cypress mulch. These three offer the most benefit and least risk. Coco coir is messy, and cypress mulch is sometime lacking uniformity, and this is why orchid bark is mr clear preference for most situations.

Some people get into a habit of using one thing or another because that is what they were taught, and it seems to work well enough for them. That is what I did. Some people are unwilling to try or learn new things, and just stick with the old info until it causes them a problem. What they fail to realize is that other people, in other parts of the world, might have problems caused by what they are recommending. I bought some soil from Lowes, filled my planter/outdoor sunning enclosure with it, grew some great greens in it, and then put some baby tortoises in there for some sun, grazing and exercise. I noticed one of the babies eating something on the ground. Upon further inspection, the baby was eating a partially decomposed Jacaranda leaf. Jacaranda is toxic. I removed it from the babies mouth and removed the babies from the soil. If I had not noticed the baby eating that leaf, it could have died. There is no way to know what toxic plants or chemicals your neighbors are putting in their greens bins, and so no way to know what is in that bag of soil you are buying at the store. Not a risk I'm willing to take, even if someone has has been gambling that way for years and has not yet had a problem, or hasn't attributed a problem they've had to that cause.
Thank you for all this information! I do my best to keep the coco coir damp as to avoid dust, but the area under/around the heat lamp still dries out, and of course that's where he spends most of his time. Perhaps I'll give the fine grade orchid bark a try!
 

mrsbotero912

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Joined
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Messages
24
Location (City and/or State)
Northeast Ohio, USA
Soil should never be used as a substrate under tortoises. This is an old way of doing it and we know better now. Bought in a bag soil is made of composted yard waste. It can be anything, and it can be toxic plants or contain toxic yard chemicals. The makers and sellers don't intend for little animals to live on it. The very act of "compositing" is mold, fungi and bacteria breaking down organic material. The wood mulch and bark based substrates recommended are recommended SPECIFICALLY because they inhibit mold, fungus and bacterial growth.

Coco coir, orchid bark and cypress mulch all absorb water just as well as soil.

Soil is made of damp dirt and decomposing organic matter. Nothing gets more dusty than dry dirt. Any type of substrate for a baby needs to be kept damp, so dust should not be an issue with any of them.

Sometimes the cypress mulch bought in bulk will be made of irregular pieces and some pieces that are too large. If you choose to use this substrate, you'll have to asses the particle size for your self, and this is one of the reason cypress is not my favorite. Fine grade orchid bark is all fairly uniform in size and provides an excellent walking surface for baby tortoises. For decades I've been raising babies of all species on it.

I used to use soil. I used to use soil/sand mixes. These are what the "experts" of yesteryear all recommended and I followed their advice. I've tried just about everything there is, and along the way I've seen the good and bad points of each. Nothing works better than Coco coir, fine grade orchid bark or cypress mulch. These three offer the most benefit and least risk. Coco coir is messy, and cypress mulch is sometime lacking uniformity, and this is why orchid bark is mr clear preference for most situations.

Some people get into a habit of using one thing or another because that is what they were taught, and it seems to work well enough for them. That is what I did. Some people are unwilling to try or learn new things, and just stick with the old info until it causes them a problem. What they fail to realize is that other people, in other parts of the world, might have problems caused by what they are recommending. I bought some soil from Lowes, filled my planter/outdoor sunning enclosure with it, grew some great greens in it, and then put some baby tortoises in there for some sun, grazing and exercise. I noticed one of the babies eating something on the ground. Upon further inspection, the baby was eating a partially decomposed Jacaranda leaf. Jacaranda is toxic. I removed it from the babies mouth and removed the babies from the soil. If I had not noticed the baby eating that leaf, it could have died. There is no way to know what toxic plants or chemicals your neighbors are putting in their greens bins, and so no way to know what is in that bag of soil you are buying at the store. Not a risk I'm willing to take, even if someone has has been gambling that way for years and has not yet had a problem, or hasn't attributed a problem they've had to that cause.
Also - is there a certain brand of orchid bark that you prefer over others? Or just any fine grade should do?
 

Tom

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Also - is there a certain brand of orchid bark that you prefer over others? Or just any fine grade should do?
I buy my orchid bark in bulk at my local nurseries.

If your substrate is drying out over the course of one day there is a problem, you might need to use a thicker layer, make it more damp, or partially cover the top to reduce ventilation.
 

mrsbotero912

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I buy my orchid bark in bulk at my local nurseries.

If your substrate is drying out over the course of one day there is a problem, you might need to use a thicker layer, make it more damp, or partially cover the top to reduce ventilation.
It only dries out that quickly around the heat lamp - the rest of the enclosure stays damp on top. And it's also just the top layer that gets dry and dusty under the lamp - the underneath is usually still pretty damp after a full day. I have also had the rest of the enclosure covered except the end where the heat lamp is, and that doesn't seem to make a difference on that end drying out on top since the heat lamp can't be blocked by anything. Not sure what else might help this situation
 

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