substrates
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Bed a beast, aspen, a mix of soil/sand
I am trying a new substrate now. And it is becoming my favorite.
It's Reptibark from Zoomed. It's fir bark. I like the texture, soft compared to cypress mulch, and also like the way it keeps the moisture. It doesn't get overly soggy but retain humidity nicely. I have a layer of bark on top of a layer of topsoil.
I think it will work great for RFs, especially for babies. Bad part is, it is rather expensive. $19 for 24 quarts at petco or petsmart. You can probably find it cheaper. It's a pretty big bag. For 6x2 enclosure, you might slightly less than an inch thick layer out of this bag. It is washable and reusable. I think it's worth it.
I tried cypress mulch, coir, sand/soil mix and didn't like any of them. Too dusty or did not retain moisture nicely.
And there's another issue with cypress mulch.
http://tortoiseforum.org/cypress-mulch-t-2650.html
Hope this helps.
Em
It's Reptibark from Zoomed. It's fir bark. I like the texture, soft compared to cypress mulch, and also like the way it keeps the moisture. It doesn't get overly soggy but retain humidity nicely. I have a layer of bark on top of a layer of topsoil.
I think it will work great for RFs, especially for babies. Bad part is, it is rather expensive. $19 for 24 quarts at petco or petsmart. You can probably find it cheaper. It's a pretty big bag. For 6x2 enclosure, you might slightly less than an inch thick layer out of this bag. It is washable and reusable. I think it's worth it.
I tried cypress mulch, coir, sand/soil mix and didn't like any of them. Too dusty or did not retain moisture nicely.
And there's another issue with cypress mulch.
http://tortoiseforum.org/cypress-mulch-t-2650.html
Hope this helps.
Em
Hi,
Yes fir is a conifer, but so is cypress. It is actually cedar that is harmful to reptiles. I learned this from Zoomed biologist. I asked them because I was concerned about this issue. There is no finding that shows pine and fir are harmful to reptiles. This is because of the kind of aromatic resin that is present in cedar that is harmful to reptiles, but not found in pine or fir.
My torts are fine on fir bark. I would not use it if I didn't think it would be safe for them. Some people use orchid bark, which is usually fir bark.
Em
Yes fir is a conifer, but so is cypress. It is actually cedar that is harmful to reptiles. I learned this from Zoomed biologist. I asked them because I was concerned about this issue. There is no finding that shows pine and fir are harmful to reptiles. This is because of the kind of aromatic resin that is present in cedar that is harmful to reptiles, but not found in pine or fir.
My torts are fine on fir bark. I would not use it if I didn't think it would be safe for them. Some people use orchid bark, which is usually fir bark.
Em
Hystrix, I know you advocate Reptibark and have read your thread above. This is my take on it;
I personally would not use this type of bark or mulch with my torts. Of course this is my personal opinion. I feel it is better to be safe than sorry when my shelled little ones are at stake.These aromatic woods can cause respiratory and/or eye problems in tortoises. I won't take the chance of causing them these types of problems. Please be careful when using Fir bark. Fir bark is from the Douglas fir tree it is a conifer. It is suggested not to use conifer trees as mulch or building pens for your torts. So I advocate Aspen or a hardwood when using woods. Here are only a few of many sites that state this.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/substrates.html
http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Care/cs-russian.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinophyta
Of course I am sure there are probably just as many sites that state that it is OK to use it, as they also state calci sand is fine ( which I am against due to impaction problems). I am happy your torts are doing fine on Reptibark. Like most things with Tortoises and Turtles there are conflicting ideas, feelings and findings.
Just the other side of the coin so to speak- See even in a toroise forum there are differences of opinions.
I personally would not use this type of bark or mulch with my torts. Of course this is my personal opinion. I feel it is better to be safe than sorry when my shelled little ones are at stake.These aromatic woods can cause respiratory and/or eye problems in tortoises. I won't take the chance of causing them these types of problems. Please be careful when using Fir bark. Fir bark is from the Douglas fir tree it is a conifer. It is suggested not to use conifer trees as mulch or building pens for your torts. So I advocate Aspen or a hardwood when using woods. Here are only a few of many sites that state this.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/substrates.html
http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Care/cs-russian.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinophyta
Of course I am sure there are probably just as many sites that state that it is OK to use it, as they also state calci sand is fine ( which I am against due to impaction problems). I am happy your torts are doing fine on Reptibark. Like most things with Tortoises and Turtles there are conflicting ideas, feelings and findings.
Just the other side of the coin so to speak- See even in a toroise forum there are differences of opinions.
Thank you for your concern, Robyn.
I thought a lot about this. Here's my take on it for now, if you are interested. It is rather boring..
I saw someone recommending orchid bark. So I went and found out what exactly orchid bark is. It is fir bark used to plant orchid. Orchid bark is also recommended on TT site and anapsid.org and so on. Reptibark is 100% fir bark. I wanted to find out why fir is ok but pine or cedar are not. I contacted Zoomed and I was told that cedar resin is primarily composed of plicatic acid which is very toxic, and pine resin is mostly abietic acid which does not have the same effect as plicatic acid. Which is true, I checked.
I wanted to find out more about it so kept looking for information. There are studies done on human and mammals on effects of abietic acid, but not on reptiles. To make the long story a little shorter, pine resin seems to have some negative effect, though not as strong as cedar resin. Fir resin contains abietic acid, but much less than pine does.
Also, abietic acid is volatile at 250C (482 F). So harm comes more from dust than "fume". I like reptibark because it is washed to remove dust (I also bought a bag of orchid bark to compare).
I read that some people have kept their reptiles on pine without any obvious problem. But I would stay away from pine because of its higher content of the aromatic compound. I also read that many people use, orchid bark or fir bark successfully.
I decided to give it a try because I have never heard of problems associated with chemicals in fir bark. It has some important qualities I am looking for in the substrate. And it is recommended by "experts". It's not perfect. Accidental ingestion can cause problems. I am actually more worried about that. Most of the pieces are too big for my torts to swallow, but there are small ones. I would not use it for my larger tortoise.
Anyway, I wrote all this, in case someone is wondering or interested in this. Tortoise husbandry is so confusing with all those conflicting informations and different opinions.
I completely respect your opinion, better safe than sorry. That is the safest approach.
Em
I thought a lot about this. Here's my take on it for now, if you are interested. It is rather boring..
I saw someone recommending orchid bark. So I went and found out what exactly orchid bark is. It is fir bark used to plant orchid. Orchid bark is also recommended on TT site and anapsid.org and so on. Reptibark is 100% fir bark. I wanted to find out why fir is ok but pine or cedar are not. I contacted Zoomed and I was told that cedar resin is primarily composed of plicatic acid which is very toxic, and pine resin is mostly abietic acid which does not have the same effect as plicatic acid. Which is true, I checked.
I wanted to find out more about it so kept looking for information. There are studies done on human and mammals on effects of abietic acid, but not on reptiles. To make the long story a little shorter, pine resin seems to have some negative effect, though not as strong as cedar resin. Fir resin contains abietic acid, but much less than pine does.
Also, abietic acid is volatile at 250C (482 F). So harm comes more from dust than "fume". I like reptibark because it is washed to remove dust (I also bought a bag of orchid bark to compare).
I read that some people have kept their reptiles on pine without any obvious problem. But I would stay away from pine because of its higher content of the aromatic compound. I also read that many people use, orchid bark or fir bark successfully.
I decided to give it a try because I have never heard of problems associated with chemicals in fir bark. It has some important qualities I am looking for in the substrate. And it is recommended by "experts". It's not perfect. Accidental ingestion can cause problems. I am actually more worried about that. Most of the pieces are too big for my torts to swallow, but there are small ones. I would not use it for my larger tortoise.
Anyway, I wrote all this, in case someone is wondering or interested in this. Tortoise husbandry is so confusing with all those conflicting informations and different opinions.
I completely respect your opinion, better safe than sorry. That is the safest approach.
Em
Em, nice research and I do respect your opinion. It’s nice to see people research products they use and discuss this in these forums so people, new or old to torts, can make informed decisions.
Thank you, Robyn
Your kind words means a lot to me because I was beginning to think I was irritating some people.. I just wanted to share what I found out about things I find interesting.
I am and have always been the kind of person who has to know whys and hows of things. Gave my mom a hard time when I was little because of it
I am monitoring my tortoises closely. If I see anything concerning, I'll let you guys know.
Em
Your kind words means a lot to me because I was beginning to think I was irritating some people.. I just wanted to share what I found out about things I find interesting.
I am and have always been the kind of person who has to know whys and hows of things. Gave my mom a hard time when I was little because of it
I am monitoring my tortoises closely. If I see anything concerning, I'll let you guys know.
Em
I have 3 rt's.
I use bed a beast or eco eath,cocunut coir.Anyone of those and mix it with play sand.
I also keep it moist.
I had my tort in bark when I first got them,and they were getting sick.I learned that any type of bark is to dusty and holds no moisture.
I go buy this care sheet,for it has alot of info and has saved my torts http://www.russiantortoise.org/care_sheet.htm
I use bed a beast or eco eath,cocunut coir.Anyone of those and mix it with play sand.
I also keep it moist.
I had my tort in bark when I first got them,and they were getting sick.I learned that any type of bark is to dusty and holds no moisture.
I go buy this care sheet,for it has alot of info and has saved my torts http://www.russiantortoise.org/care_sheet.htm
Poor water in substrate.Just anough to make a ball of substrate in hand,no dripping.Then everyday , stir up substrate.
And add more water when needed.Thats what I do.
And add more water when needed.Thats what I do.
Sorry so late to reply.Computer was down.
I have my substrate at 3 to 4 inches deep.They love to dig.
I have my substrate at 3 to 4 inches deep.They love to dig.
I have just joined this forum and was interested in your views on substrates. I had prepared a tortoise table for the arrival of 7 year old male Horsfield.I had used a mixture of loam and playsand 1/3 to 2/3 but have now been advised that I should only use a substrate that can be "digested"to avoid compaction. I was given alfalfa granules which I have now read are too high in protein. This has left me very confused as to what is the ideal substrate for these tortoises. Most of the reputable sites still seem to recommend a soil/sand combination. I Know (as you have pointed out that opinions differ but I was wondering if you knew what the most up to date advice is. Thank youCrazy1 said:
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i use dried cocanut shels
it works well
it works well
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