Sulcata growth rate /pyramiding questions

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CRMstar

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Hello! I joined the forum to connect with other Sulcata owners for support/tips/ideas in my journey to raise my Sulcata. She is a happy 4 year old, and she lives indoors on a diet of grasses, occasional hays, greens, and extremely occasional fruit/veggie/cactus pad treats. She goes outside a lot in the spring and summer to eat and walk in the yard. I feed her every other day, calcium/D3 supplement every other feeding, soak every other/every 2 days, no water kept in tank. Her enclosure is a 75 gallon aquarium (4ft x ~2 ft) which she seems to like it better than her old tortoise table of the same size (looks around and is more active); temp ~75-80 F and 100F in basking area, substrate 50/50 mix of top soil and sand, has hide log burrow. She seems to be healthy; active, hard shelled, a good eater, and very curious.

Given the info above, I have noticed a little raising in her scutes in the past few months, and she is only about 5 inches across her carapace, which seems small for her age (although I know growth rates vary widely; see photos below). I would like to prevent pyramiding, determine the cause, and get opinions about her size and routine.

I love this tortoise, probably more than one should love a reptile (as most of you probably understand), and I want to make sure she is healthy. Thanks for any comments/advice you have-- they are greatly appreciated by us, and by Disco!
 

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oknursedana

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Welcome. I'm new here too but I have read a lot. At 4 yrs old it should be spending the majority of time outside. They should always have access to water in their enclosure. As for the pyramiding yours looks very minimal to my extremely untrained eyes. Definitely a cutie!!!!!
 

CRMstar

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Thanks for your reply. And, I have read on here that people often keep water in their Sulcatas' enclosures, but that is the opposite of everything I have ever read. :/
I might try to increase her soakings to every day maybe? I would like to know what people think about their water requirements and their humidity needs.
I plan on keeping her outdoors all year round when she gets bigger, but right now she is so small, I do not let her out without my or my husband's supervision. I feel it is too dangerous to keep her out without us because she is tiny.
 

Levi the Leopard

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Yours should live outside. It's large enough/old enough. Build a large secure enclosure and maybe bring it in for nights. She can have whole yard access later when she is larger.

The new info about water and humidity IS opposite to everything you've read. But that's the old info... Why do the care sheets, vets and "experts" say "raise a sully dry with no water or humidity" when that's not their natural environment??

Take a look at the conditions in Africa where they hatch in the wild. What are those weather conditions like? It's hot, humid and rainy with green plants (food) everywhere. That is the environment we should mimic in the beginning of their life to get them growing naturally from the start.

It's just in these past few years that we've been realizing this important factor.

Have you read The End of Pyramiding I and II threads yet? You don't have a sulcata hatchling and it won't necessarily apply to you now but it will shed light on the "why" of water and humidity needs for a sulcata.
Take a look there for details about why hydration is so important. Come back if you have questions after that. :)

Btw, your sully is small at 4 yrs because of the conditions it was raised in. When they are raised in an environment that mimics their natural environment they grow not just smoothly but quickly. 6"-8"is typical for a 1 year old raised naturally.

To sum it up. Build an outdoor pen with opportunity for unlimited grazing, provide water access always and watch your sully blossom :)

Sent from my TFOapp
 

ZombiiePoopp16

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Cactus pads are wonderful give them to her more often. My tort gets some every other day
 

jjsull33

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I think you should definitely put a shallow water dish in her enclosure for her. I use a terracotta saucer that you can get for 2-5 bucks at home depot, just one of those saucers you put underneath a pot to catch water. The tortoises do not use it only for drinking but also as a way to cool down and adjust their body temp since they are cold blooded.

I also suggest reading those threads that Heather suggested, they are good reads even if you aren't raising a baby.
 

Tom

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You have been misinformed, as was I, and many many other people. The books, breeders, experts and vets are largely wrong, and have been wrong for more than two decades. Only in the last few years have we started to figure out what we have been doing wrong, and much of "the establishment" is still bucking the new info despite obvious and overwhelming info to the contrary. Imagine if you had written a book espousing "hot and dry", been paid a lot of money for it, sold thousands of copies, and now some stranger stands before you telling you that you are wrong. And not just telling you, but holding living proof in hand. Imagine all the vets that read that book and then tell their clients this for years. Imagine breeders that have been doing it this way for decades, but can't explain why their own holdbacks look like a medieval weapon, instead of a bowling ball, like what occurs in nature. ...its a hard pill to swallow. I was one of "them". I nearly quite tortoise keeping many times over the last two decades because no matter how hard I tried to follow all of "their" advice, I was met with nothing but failure.

Well now we know better. I thought of a new analogy to explain this the other day. Look up the weather in sulcata territory. Outside of the rainy season it is hot and dry. So the daily high today in some portion of the range is is 112 with low humidity. Lets say I'm an earthworm fancier. So if I go to that part of Africa, dig up an earthworm and bring it home, should I house it in a dry glass box, with a thin dry substrate and set the temp to 112 degrees since those are the conditions in its natural environment? What do you think would happen to my earthworm? Well the same thing happens to the INSIDE of a tortoise when we keep them that way. The way the books, experts, breeders and vets recommend.

About your tortoise specifically: It is very undersized and a bit misshapen. This is most likely due to what the breeder did with it, before you got it, and also how its been housed for the last 4 years. Here is what I would do, if I was given a tortoise like yours and wanted to make it as healthy as possible.

1. Build a 4x8' closed chamber like this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html. Include a humid hide in your design.
2. Set up a basking bulb on a 12 hour timer and adjust the height so that the temperature directly under the bulb is around 100.
3. Set up a Ceramic Heating Element on a timer so your ambient stays no lower than 80 all the time.
4. Get rid of the sand and then dampen your substrate little by little until your humidity inside the chamber stabilizes at around 80%.
5. Get an 8-10" terra cotta plant saucer and sink it into the substrate so the rim is level with the surface and fill it with water. Clean and refill daily, or more often as needed.
6. Keep up your soaking routine.
7. Feed your tortoise, or let him graze, everyday. Stop the fruit and veggies. The rest of your diet sounds great. You might want to introduce some Mazuri. It ensures their nutritional needs are being met and gives them the protein they need for growth. Here is something I typed up on diet the other day:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-76744.html
8. Build a large planted enclosure outside and let your tortoise sun, graze and exercise out there when weather permits, but let it sleep inside overnight or an super hot days (95+) or cool ones. Make sure your tortoise is secure, has shade, and is protected from predators, like the family dog.


Welcome to the forum, and I hope we are able to help you. There is a lot more sulcata info in my signature, and a better explanation of all of this too.
 

alysciaingram

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I will also testify that the humidity bump and outdoor enclosure will greatly benefit your tortoise. When I received mine I had no information other than incorrect information. She was raised dry, and is pyramided and stunted as a result. Within the last six months I made drastic improvements to her health and she has made leaps and bounds. I cannot go back and undo what I had already done, or lack there of, but she is in much better shape and continuing this way. Here are some pictures to prove it, mind you our sulcatas look very similar in all aspects in the before picture, give or take on the age difference between them when the photo was taken.
Before: ImageUploadedByTortForum1376948358.721916.jpg
Now: ImageUploadedByTortForum1376948384.600319.jpg

This is within six months. Her appetite is amazing, her new growth is smooth and constant, and she all around is a happier tortoise. Please consider the changes for the benefit of your tort.
 
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Hauntmom

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Oh yes the humidity and water helps a lot! I know what you must be thinking cuz I know how I felt when I found this forum. You were thinking about how easy taking care of your Sully was before and now everyone is telling you all these things you have to buy and how much you'll have to spend. I know that if we knew everything we learned from here in the beginning that my husband would have said no lol But all this really helps. And It's really worth changing things cuz your sully will be happier in the long run.
Here is Kresh before I found this site notice how much pyramiding he already had


And here he is about 6 months later
 

CRMstar

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Thank you all for your advice. I have been reading a lot on this forum for the past week or so, and am amazed by the idea that Sulcatas need a more humid environment. I mean, as said above, it makes sense given that they are burrowers. I have read most of the information here, and will continue to. I definitely will get rid of the sand and start to mist the tank and close the top. Tom, the pic you put of the closed chamber did not show up, but I am looking at others. I suppose I would feel comfortable putting her outside during the day when the weather permits in a enclosure that is netted so that the predators around here do not grab her or injure her.
I'm very thankful for all of your replies and the time and care you took in them. I feel a bit guilty that Disco is not as healthy as she could be, but I know that I was misinformed by many other sources, I suppose. I thought I was doing everything right until I saw this site, and I thank you all very much (an Disco does too!).
 

CRMstar

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Also, I have read on the forum that for an indoor enclosure fluorescent UVB lights are not that great. Thoughts? I think I might go ahead and redo her entire tank by getting some different substrate like coco coir and making it deep, shallow water dish, deeper burrow, close the top off and create moisture, and get a new UV light like the mercury vapor light.
Also, I know the torts need UV light for D3, but do they necessarily need that much of it if they are getting a D3 supplement? Is one better than the other, and why?
Thanks again for all of your advice. I'm excited to start the change and see results.
 

TortyTom

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This is my Darwin when I rescued him from a neighbor throwing him into a ditch at 8 mo old. You can see the pyramiding had started due to how it was first started off and this is Darwin today only 7 months later and being cared for the right way. The pyramiding can never be removed but the new growth will be smooth and make the pyramiding less noticeable. As far as your lighting question, The fluorescent coil lights are very bad and can blind your tort. If your tort spends a lot of time outside during warm weather, I don't think the UVB lighting is as important as it would be in the winter when your torts not getting natural sun light.
 

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Levi the Leopard

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If your sulcata gets even a few hours of outdoors time in a week, then you don't need any artificial UV lighting indoors. Save the $$ :)

UV rays bounce around and even when in the shade, a tort still receives UV.

Also, I wouldn't use a D3 supplement since yours gets to go outside. It's just not need.

Sent from my TFOapp
 

Baoh

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Do you have pics of her as a hatchling? If so, please post them. There is something I would like to confirm.
 

CRMstar

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Here are her pics when we first got her. I recall the pet shop owner said that she was a 2-3 months old. He was not the breeder, and didn't seem to know too much about the species. He had water in a closed tank and had fed the torts fruits.
Disco had a green mouth, and so she looked like a good eater. She was very lethargic when we brought her home. We also noticed very wet eyes and bubbles in the nose. The vet said to make sure she is warm enough, and not much else. She soon pulled and ate and became more active.
 

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Tom

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Good for you on saving this tortoise. I'm going to guess that your soaking routine was instrumental in saving this tortoises life.

Please feel free to ask any questions. We're happy to help.
 

Baoh

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Thank you. The photos confirm what I suspected.

Her odd shape was actually set in the egg. Look at her tubercles (scales on the forelimbs) as a hatchling and now and compare them to other sulcatas of various sizes. Hers are more plate-like and the quantity is different as well. She is different developmentally in comparison to that which is typical for the species. It is a unique animal.

Making sure hydration status is up is good across the board for her, but her unusual shape (other than the touch of pyramiding) is not due to that, but is inherent to her existence and identity.
 

CRMstar

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Yes, I will keep up with the hydration for sure. I never really noticed her looking different from other sulcatas, but thanks, I think she is pretty unique too :p
I never really thought she had too odd a shape, but hopefully this will be better with more water.
 

Baoh

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Not extreme or anything. Just significant enough to notice.
 
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