Sulcata Hatchlings on Craigslist (Buffalo, NY) - with incorrect/misleading info in ad

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danielledelynn

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http://buffalo.craigslist.org/pet/1872127505.html

I sent a text message a few minutes ago to this guy, to let him know he has some incorrect/misleading information about Sulcatas in his ad. People like him are the reasons why people see baby sulcatas and think, "OMG aww how cute! They are going to stay cute and little for a long time! Gee, I think I'm going to buy a few!" I'm guessing this guy is a breeder looking for a quick buck since he has a bunch.

This is what I texted him:

Hi, I saw your ad on CL about the Sulcatas - I know you're trying to sell them and whatnot, but you shouldn't mislead people who most likely know nothing about them, and tell them that they will reach 10-12 inches. Those things grow to be half as big as a car! No, it doesn't happen overnight but there are people all over the world buying/adopting cute little sulcatas like these because they think they will stay small and cute, when in fact most people don't have yards big enough to care for them as they grow to be 5, 10, 15+ years old. They need to be kept outdoors as they get larger...and larger...and larger. They start off as cute little guys but they turn out to be huge creatures!


He responded a few minutes later with this:

I said in the ad that in 6 or 7 years they should be 10-12 inches, which is TRUE!

Yes, that's all he wrote back...

So I texted this, one last time:

Dude...You should put this in your ad so it doesn't mislead people: "Sulcatas can outlive humans if properly cared for and can grow to weight over 100+ pounds, close to the size of a kiddie pool."


I am afraid most of the people that buy one of these hatchlings from this guy have no idea what they are in for...and then they will end up selling it/them too when they're sick of maintaining it/them.

This really bothers me. This dude doesn't even care. He just wants to make sure he gets rich quick, by lying, obviously.
 

TORTOMANIA

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BuddysParents said:
http://buffalo.craigslist.org/pet/1872127505.html

I sent a text message a few minutes ago to this guy, to let him know he has some incorrect/misleading information about Sulcatas in his ad. People like him are the reasons why people see baby sulcatas and think, "OMG aww how cute! They are going to stay cute and little for a long time! Gee, I think I'm going to buy a few!" I'm guessing this guy is a breeder looking for a quick buck since he has a bunch.

This is what I texted him:

Hi, I saw your ad on CL about the Sulcatas - I know you're trying to sell them and whatnot, but you shouldn't mislead people who most likely know nothing about them, and tell them that they will reach 10-12 inches. Those things grow to be half as big as a car! No, it doesn't happen overnight but there are people all over the world buying/adopting cute little sulcatas like these because they think they will stay small and cute, when in fact most people don't have yards big enough to care for them as they grow to be 5, 10, 15+ years old. They need to be kept outdoors as they get larger...and larger...and larger. They start off as cute little guys but they turn out to be huge creatures!


He responded a few minutes later with this:

I said in the ad that in 6 or 7 years they should be 10-12 inches, which is TRUE!

Yes, that's all he wrote back...

So I texted this, one last time:

Dude...You should put this in your ad so it doesn't mislead people: "Sulcatas can outlive humans if properly cared for and can grow to weight over 100+ pounds, close to the size of a kiddie pool."


I am afraid most of the people that buy one of these hatchlings from this guy have no idea what they are in for...and then they will end up selling it/them too when they're sick of maintaining it/them.

This really bothers me. This dude doesn't even care. He just wants to make sure he gets rich quick, by lying, obviously.

I am the person listing them on craigs list, and you have no idea who i am , and have no right assuming anything about me or my intentions. Do you expect me to write a 1000 word paragraph on there care on craigs list. Most people that have bought them from me i have talked to in person or over the phone, and i have never lied or mislead anyone.. you are lying when u say half the size of a car. an average car weighs 1600 lbs. if you expect me to go back and forth with texting, i'm not into that, just call me.
how am i getting rich quick selling torts for half retail price on CL??
I have a real Job
get a life kid
 

danielledelynn

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Buffalo, NY
Wow.... I'm not even going to say anything else. You're obviously a scum bag. You're calling me a kid? lol... I have a real job, I'm probably older than you..and I seem to know more about tortoises than you, you're just out to make some money. No wonder your ad keeps getting flagged. YES YOU ARE MISLEADING PEOPLE! That's all I have to say, I'm done with you.
 

TORTOMANIA

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BuddysParents said:
Wow.... I'm not even going to say anything else. You're obviously a scum bag. You're calling me a kid? lol... I have a real job, I'm probably older than you..and I seem to know more about tortoises than you, you're just out to make some money. No wonder your ad keeps getting flagged. YES YOU ARE MISLEADING PEOPLE! That's all I have to say, I'm done with you.

you attacked me publicly you are arrogant
 

PeanutbuttER

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I didn't see the ad because it has been flagged, but if there was no mention that sulcatas get HUGE, then I'm glad it was flagged. To not mention something so fundamental as adult size in the case of sulcatas looks a whole lot like an attempt to get people to buy something while shushing the (generally negative for most people) consequences. The irresponsibility comes from the false security that the new tort owners now have about having no idea how big their tort will be soon and how to care for something like that, but they still feel like they do. To say their adult size takes just as much time as saying they get "10-12 inches in 6-7 years" doesn't take "a thousand words". It takes a sentence.

BuddysParents, I agree with you and am glad you're taking a stand. It's unfortunate that this is between 2 members here and that that makes things a bit more touchy. I'm sure there are a lot of potential families who in 6-7 years would have been FREAKED OUT by this ever growing monster they've got.

Tortomania: Here are a few definitions
Lie- intransitive verb
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
Mislead- transitive verb
to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit
intransitive verb:
to lead astray :give a wrong impression

By only saying that in 6-7 years they get 10-12 inches is creating a misleading impression in the minds of your customers. You say "10-12 inches" and they think "adult size". By these definitions (Merriam Webster) it seems that you have both lied and misled by only saying their 6-7 year size. Once again, I haven't seen the ad but the email is where you stated this so it seems that it has also been in the ad. If I'm wrong, then I sincerely apologize.
 

-JM

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I also did not see the add, but if the aforementioned claim has any merit, and you did mislead customers into thinking that the adult size is only 12 inches, then I am ecstatic that the ad was stopped.

I've spent my entire summer working with Sulcata tortoises who were abandoned and mistreated, kept in too small containers or dumped on the side of the road to fend for themselves. And the answer to the obvious "why" is that the owner "didn't know it would get so big."

If you are "responsible" enough to own and breed one of these wonderful creatures, how can you NOT care enough to be sure your buyer is appropriately prepared and educated? It's inhumane and in-human to be so crass! Even if you are trying to turn a profit, there are plenty of buyers around who are willing and able to provide the care a Sulcata needs; there's no reason to mislead anyone (intentionally or not).

Part of being a pet-parent, especially a pet-parent who is selling offspring is being sure that fellow owners are educated. You can't just trust that people know what they're getting. Part of being a responsible breeder is being sure that the people who are buying your animals can provide for them, and that entails making the buyer aware of ALL the necessary details (diet, space requirements, lighting needs, adult size, temperament, and many more). All those things can be summarized in a paragraph or two. I've seen it done.

So, in short, I believe BuddysParents were right to text you, and right to be concerned about the ad. I'm glad that they saw it and asked for details to be added. I don't mind that you have tortoises; I'm sure you're a good tort-parent! I don't mind that you breed and sell. I don't care if you do it for fun or for profit or because you absolutely love your tortoises and you want everyone to have the same wonderful experience. I just want to be sure that anyone who may decide to buy a tortoise (from anyone) knows exactly what they're getting into, so that they and the tortoise can get the most out of the arrangement.
 

TORTOMANIA

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Listen, when i listed these tortoises i had no intentions on misleading anyone nor did i think i was. Everone i have sold tortoises to has known about their care and size requirements. Everyone i have delt with i have talked with extensively in person. I didnt't think i was going to offend someone with a quickly typed out listing. I said they would get 10-12" in 6-7 years because i have experience with them in this age range and have witnessed them first hand. I couldnt say they will grow 25" in 30 years, because people need some way of gauging their growth. I never said they would stop growing at this size, it was simply a reference point to give people an idea. Beleive it or not if you tell them it grows it 150Lbs. they think it's going to grow up in a year like a dog.
Everyone i have sold these tortoises to has been aware of their care
I did not deceive anyone
If this person would have just called me instead of texting this thread would not exist
Text messaging is very interpretive.
It's ok though I have very thick skin, maybe even a shell ha ha
I will be more careful in my listings in the future
 

-JM

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TORTOMANIA said:
Listen, when i listed these tortoises i had no intentions on misleading anyone nor did i think i was. Everone i have sold tortoises to has known about their care and size requirements. Everyone i have delt with i have talked with extensively in person. I didnt't think i was going to offend someone with a quickly typed out listing. I said they would get 10-12" in 6-7 years because i have experience with them in this age range and have witnessed them first hand. I couldnt say they will grow 25" in 30 years, because people need some way of gauging their growth. I never said they would stop growing at this size, it was simply a reference point to give people an idea. Beleive it or not if you tell them it grows it 150Lbs. they think it's going to grow up in a year like a dog.
Everyone i have sold these tortoises to has been aware of their care
I did not deceive anyone
If this person would have just called me instead of texting this thread would not exist
Text messaging is very interpretive.
It's ok though I have very thick skin, maybe even a shell ha ha
I will be more careful in my listings in the future

I believe you. I'm glad you talk to people about what they're really buying from you.
As for the ad, now you know ;) I'm sure you won't scare us like that again.
 

TORTOMANIA

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just for the record
I do not breed sulcatas, only redfoots
these are a friend of mines and he had too many
 

Tom

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I didn't see the ad either. Only what was relayed here. I don't see it as misleading. I totally get what he was trying to say and IF (BIG IF) he is educating his customers further upon actually talking to them, I have no problem with the ad or the seller. I have no reason to suspect that TORTOMANIA is not telling the truth when he says he's telling people what they are getting into and how big they get, once he gets them on the phone or in person.
 

PeanutbuttER

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TORTOMANIA said:
Listen, when i listed these tortoises i had no intentions on misleading anyone nor did i think i was. Everone i have sold tortoises to has known about their care and size requirements. Everyone i have delt with i have talked with extensively in person. I didnt't think i was going to offend someone with a quickly typed out listing. I said they would get 10-12" in 6-7 years because i have experience with them in this age range and have witnessed them first hand. I couldnt say they will grow 25" in 30 years, because people need some way of gauging their growth. I never said they would stop growing at this size, it was simply a reference point to give people an idea. Beleive it or not if you tell them it grows it 150Lbs. they think it's going to grow up in a year like a dog.
Everyone i have sold these tortoises to has been aware of their care
I did not deceive anyone
If this person would have just called me instead of texting this thread would not exist
Text messaging is very interpretive.
It's ok though I have very thick skin, maybe even a shell ha ha
I will be more careful in my listings in the future

Wow, that was not what I expected. I believe you because you really do sound sincere. I can understand people assuming they'll be full-sized in a year so giving a reference along the way to full size (at 6-7 years) really isn't a bad idea at all.

It seems that I may have been wrong, so I do apologize for my last post.
 

-JM

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I would also like to apologize, in case my passionate rant caused offense. As you can see, I feel very strongly about the issue, but so long as you are informing the buyers, I have no problem with you whatsoever.

Thank you for addressing our concerns. I appreciate that you do go to so much effort to find good homes!
 

TORTOMANIA

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it's really a shame because i always like meeting local people who are involved in the hobby enough to actually join a forum about it
There is not that many of them around buffalo
 

-JM

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I don't know anybody in my local area that cares enough about torts to join here. I know a few people who keep them as "eccentric pets", and some ma-n-pa stores that sell them, but that's about it.

I love being able to come here and learn about what's going on in the tort world and get expert opinions on everything. This is such a wonderful resource for anyone wanting to get involved in their tort hobby. :) Lots of good input.
 
M

Maggie Cummings

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Hey all...keep this polite even tho you disagree. No name calling no personal attacks...I will close this thread if need be...but that said, y'all seemed to have calmed down some. Please remember name calling and personal attacks could get you a warning:)
Moderator, Maggie
 

TORTOMANIA

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-JM said:
I don't know anybody in my local area that cares enough about torts to join here. I know a few people who keep them as "eccentric pets", and some ma-n-pa stores that sell them, but that's about it.

I love being able to come here and learn about what's going on in the tort world and get expert opinions on everything. This is such a wonderful resource for anyone wanting to get involved in their tort hobby. :) Lots of good input.
wow thats quit an impressive bio you have, what is Organismal Biology specialization ( i had to copy paste that lol) what career are you looking to get into.
 

-JM

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I'm going to respond in a PM, not b/c I don't want other people to know, but that's not what this thread is for :)
 
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