Sulcata Looks Very Sick (likely RI) - Advice Needed

[AliM29]

Before I go on, please note that I have already taken him to the vet. I need further advice.

I rescued a tortoise (male, roughly 36 pounds, and 3-5 years old) several months ago, and within a short time after rescuing him, the weather in Arizona dropped and he started burmating. Once it dropped below 50 F, I brought him inside so that he could stay warm. Now that the weather has warmed up, I brought him outside to get some sun and I noticed that he was bubbling out of his nose and he also sounded congested when breathing through his nose. He didn't really eat anything but a bite or two at the time. I took him immediately to the vet and they said that he potentially has a minor respiratory infection. They supplied him with 7 doses of Enrofloxacin (100 mg/ml at 1.6 ml per shot) to be given to him in his armpit every 48 hours. They told me the best way to apply it (due to the fact that he will fight having a needle placed in him) is to flip them on their back and give them the shot. This is what I had been doing every two days at exactly the same time.

Unfortunately, it has been 4 days and the tortoise has not improved at all. He is actually more lethargic than before, and the bubbles are still coming out of his nose. He seems very sluggish to move around. I've also noticed that he angles his head towards his right front leg as if almost scratching his face (not quite sure if this is what the behavior is). I've been keeping him warm at an ambient of 80-85 degrees (using a ceramic space heater), and have a hot spot of around 90 degrees.

I have owned reptiles before, but never a tortoise, so I am not sure what to do here. Is there something else wrong here that I am missing? Could me flipping him on his back be affecting his behavior or does that not matter at all (obviously I flip him back once I am done)? Can I do anything else to improve his health?

I would very much appreciate any advice that you can give. Thank you!

EDIT: I should note that he also looks very dehydrated (as best as my inexperienced eyes can tell). Should I consider putting him in a warm tub (in my shower) to hydrate him? Or is this not a good idea at his condition?

 

[Yvonne G]

Your first mistake was in thinking that your sulcata would brumate...they don't. Where they come from in Africa the weather is warm and warmer, never cold enough for them to know what "cold" is. Captive sulcatas need to be kept warm at all times.

How do you have this animal set up? Does he just live outside, or do you have some sort of heat source for him in his hiding place? In order for the antibiotic to work, he needs to be warmed up and kept warm. And yes, giving him a nice, warm soak daily would probably do him a world of good.

Just give it time. Hopefully he'll start showing improvement soon.

 

[sibi]

Sulcatas should never be kept in temps below 80 degrees. He has a RI because of the cold. I doubt you had any heat provided in his hide outside since you thought they brumate.
Keep him inside with a heat lamp, a heat blanket, warm soaks (at least two a day while he's sick), and try to keep his hide humid. If you're providing that much heat, you'll need to keep his enclosure humid...very humid like about 80% humidity. There's ton of information here on the proper care of sulcatas. I suggest you search under care sheets for sulcata.

 

[Meganolvt]

Also remember that reptiles heal slower than mammals and it will take some time for the enrofloxacin to work.

 

[Pearly]

So sorry to hear you have a sick tort. Here're couple of things that jumped at me from your post: keeping the tort too cold is what's got him sick. There couple of golden standards that we always do for sick tort: 1) bump their ambient temp up (at least to 85F) and 2) long warm soaks! The more the better. Put him in a shallow warm water (your shower tub or such) keep room warm and heat lamp over his carapace. When one of my babies was sick I used heating blanket underneath my water tub where he was soaking and basking bulb or CHE from the top to keep the air and water warm for him. This way if you soak for 30-40 min you only have to change water after the poop and not every few minutes bcs water got too cool

 

[AliM29]

Thank you all for the input. I've been operating under the advice from various different care guides as well as friends who own Sulcatas in Arizona that they tend to do fine in colder temperatures as long as it doesn't drop below 50 F.

As soon as the temperature dropped to 50, I moved him into our Arizona room (partially outdoors room which is shielded from wind/rain and generally warmer), and I allowed him to burrow in a large substrate of hay with two heat lamps on top of his carapace. Once it dropped near 40, I completely moved him inside in a large, ventilated storage room in our house and heated that room to 75 deg. F using a space heater and provided him with additional heating lamps. He has been there for a couple of months now. He did not use the heating lamps at all during that period.

Once I discovered his illness, I bumped up his ambient temperature to 85 deg, and that's how he's been since then. He has access to a heat lamp, but does not use it. He tends to just go hide in his hide box. The room is not accessed by anyone but me, so it's as low of a stress environment that I can provide him (with the exception of me moving him around to provide him with medication). I have attached two pictures of how his setup is currently. The space heater is located behind the wooden board (not pictured). He doesn't have substrate currently because that room is only temporary, but if it's absolutely essential, I can bring in some hay to put in the room. I am in the process of building him a very large outdoor enclosure that is fully insulated, but that's still another month or so away before it is completed. I have also attached a picture of the enclosure's current state.

I will start soaking him tonight. Is there a specific temperature that is best for him? I have been told about 80-85 degrees is good for about 30 minutes of soaking.

 

[sibi]

Yes those temps are good. You could even go to 90 degrees, so long as you keep those temps up. Also, you obviously was given bad advice from previous owners. Sulcatas can barely survive in 50,degrees, BUT they will not thrive. And, at those temps, it would be cruel and just put them at risk of RI. One other thing, I don't know if you have a temp gun, but you should measure the temps of his top carapace directly under his heat lamp. Depending on the lighting you're using (btw, it should be a light that gives off UVB), if the bulb is 100w, the light should be about 12" from his top shell. Measuring the heat that it radiates, you can adjust the levels to get at about 95-100 degrees. What you don't want is to overheat the shell and thus, burning it. Of course, the higher the wattage, the higher the distance it should be from the top shell.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. I'm really gad you found us, but I'm constantly frustrated by the amount of misinformation that circulates around out there in the world.

Some parts of AZ are about the only place in this country where sulcatas can survive, just barely, outside with no heat at least some of the time. But as previous posters already spelled out, this is not "good" for them. Usually, they are down underground in burrows and they just manage to live through conditions that are way too cold for this species. Because some percentage of them survive there this way, some people go around telling other people that their sulcata "brumates", or "hibernates" and that cold temps are fine for them. Then there is the percentage of AZ sulcata owners whose tortoises get sick and or die there every year. Those guys aren't talking… Some of them have no idea why their tortoise died. Even the ones whose tortoise live will tell you they don't eat or come out of their burrow for weeks or months at a time in winter. This is not normal and its not good. Heck, this is not even okay. Its a failure to understand what this species needs and where it comes from. My sulcatas all eat like pigs all winter long. It is such a shame to me that more people don't understand this.

You've gotten good advice in this thread so far, but I'd like to add a few things:

1. You didn't make any mention of your vet addressing the CAUSE of your tortoises illness. Did he/she? Without addressing and solving the problem, treating the symptoms will be futile.
2. Are you saying that it is 85 degrees down there on the floor at all times day and night? Room temp would have to be keep at 100 24/7 to achieve that. This tortoise got sick because it was kept too cold. Your enclosure looks okay, but the tortoise would do much better outside where it can get nice and hot in the sun all day, of course with some shade available so it doesn't over heat. Then it needs to be brought in at night and kept no lower than 85-90 until all symptoms are gone for at least a couple of weeks. After all symptoms have disappeared for at least two weeks, night temps can be brought down to 80ish for a while until summer gets here. Are you measuring the floor temp there? What is it? What are you using for night heat? They need it dark at night, but still warm.
3. Burrowing into hay or other bedding does not help keep an ectotherm warm. The insulation might slow heat loss a little bit, but they can not warm up on their own. They need a heat source. The right heat source.
4. Here are some examples of night boxes that will work well where you are. There are a couple of different, safe, heating strategies here:
This one would suit your boy very well: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
These are a little bigger: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...ght-box-with-exploded-view.97697/#post-911275
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/
5. This one is very IMPORTANT: With all this added electric heat, you are going to be desiccating your big boy like a prune. It is very important that you warm water soak him DAILY during this time. Use 90-95 degree water and keep it warm during the whole 45 minute soak time. The soaking and hydration will also help fight the sickness and pass the harsh drugs out of his system. His kidneys will appreciate the extra help. You can use the bath tub for this and simply trickle in warm water as needed to maintain the temperature of the soak water. A little bleach spray after the tortoise is back in its enclosure, followed by a rinse, will keep the tub clean for humans later on too.


Here is some general sulcata info for you. Hopefully you will find some useful tips in these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Please question anything and everything I've said here. It took decades to learn all this and I'm eager and happy to explain any and all of it.

 

[sibi]

Hello and welcome. I'm really gad you found us, but I'm constantly frustrated by the amount of misinformation that circulates around out there in the world.

Some parts of AZ are about the only place in this country where sulcatas can survive, just barely, outside with no heat at least some of the time. But as previous posters already spelled out, this is not "good" for them. Usually, they are down underground in burrows and they just manage to live through conditions that are way too cold for this species. Because some percentage of them survive there this way, some people go around telling other people that their sulcata "brumates", or "hibernates" and that cold temps are fine for them. Then there is the percentage of AZ sulcata owners whose tortoises get sick and or die there every year. Those guys aren't talking… Some of them have no idea why their tortoise died. Even the ones whose tortoise live will tell you they don't eat or come out of their burrow for weeks or months at a time in winter. This is not normal and its not good. Heck, this is not even okay. Its a failure to understand what this species needs and where it comes from. My sulcatas all eat like pigs all winter long. It is such a shame to me that more people don't understand this.

You've gotten good advice in this thread so far, but I'd like to add a few things:

1. You didn't make any mention of your vet addressing the CAUSE of your tortoises illness. Did he/she? Without addressing and solving the problem, treating the symptoms will be futile.
2. Are you saying that it is 85 degrees down there on the floor at all times day and night? Room temp would have to be keep at 100 24/7 to achieve that. This tortoise got sick because it was kept too cold. Your enclosure looks okay, but the tortoise would do much better outside where it can get nice and hot in the sun all day, of course with some shade available so it doesn't over heat. Then it needs to be brought in at night and kept no lower than 85-90 until all symptoms are gone for at least a couple of weeks. After all symptoms have disappeared for at least two weeks, night temps can be brought down to 80ish for a while until summer gets here. Are you measuring the floor temp there? What is it? What are you using for night heat? They need it dark at night, but still warm.
3. Burrowing into hay or other bedding does not help keep an ectotherm warm. The insulation might slow heat loss a little bit, but they can not warm up on their own. They need a heat source. The right heat source.
4. Here are some examples of night boxes that will work well where you are. There are a couple of different, safe, heating strategies here:
This one would suit your boy very well: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
These are a little bigger: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...ght-box-with-exploded-view.97697/#post-911275
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/
5. This one is very IMPORTANT: With all this added electric heat, you are going to be desiccating your big boy like a prune. It is very important that you warm water soak him DAILY during this time. Use 90-95 degree water and keep it warm during the whole 45 minute soak time. The soaking and hydration will also help fight the sickness and pass the harsh drugs out of his system. His kidneys will appreciate the extra help. You can use the bath tub for this and simply trickle in warm water as needed to maintain the temperature of the soak water. A little bleach spray after the tortoise is back in its enclosure, followed by a rinse, will keep the tub clean for humans later on too.


Here is some general sulcata info for you. Hopefully you will find some useful tips in these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Please question anything and everything I've said here. It took decades to learn all this and I'm eager and happy to explain any and all of it.

I sincerely hope you'll read and follow Tom's suggestions because years ago, he (we) made mistakes raising this species, and his (our) mistakes became his efforts to prevent others from making those same mistakes. You and your tortoise will be happy you did.

 

[AliM29]

1. You didn't make any mention of your vet addressing the CAUSE of your tortoises illness. Did he/she? Without addressing and solving the problem, treating the symptoms will be futile.

Tom, thank you for the info. The vet did not say the cause of the RI. This is the first time I've taken the sulcata to the vet, so I'm not sure what else she could've told me. His mouth was clean though and everything else was fine. The only problems were the congested sounds, the bubbles out of the nose, and one of his eyes was slightly more watery than the other. When I rescued the tortoise, he was already lost in some neighborhood for a month or so during the summer (I finally found the original owners, but they couldn't take the tortoise back). He had that congested sound when I first got him, so it is possible that I made it worse by leaving him in the cold.

2. Are you saying that it is 85 degrees down there on the floor at all times day and night? Room temp would have to be keep at 100 24/7 to achieve that. This tortoise got sick because it was kept too cold. Your enclosure looks okay, but the tortoise would do much better outside where it can get nice and hot in the sun all day, of course with some shade available so it doesn't over heat. Then it needs to be brought in at night and kept no lower than 85-90 until all symptoms are gone for at least a couple of weeks. After all symptoms have disappeared for at least two weeks, night temps can be brought down to 80ish for a while until summer gets here. Are you measuring the floor temp there? What is it? What are you using for night heat? They need it dark at night, but still warm.

I have a temperature controlled ceramic heater (http://amzn.com/B000TTSXNI). I have set the temperature to 85 deg., and it turns on whenever the ambient (average) temperature drops below this. I have not measured the floor itself. Given the concrete flooring, I suspect the ground temperature is much colder. I am in the process of getting him an electric blanket to offset the floor temperature. Also, the big wooden boards are blocking most of the hot draft from the ceramic heater, so it does take a while longer for his section of the room to warm up. I didn't want to put the ceramic heater directly with him due to safety concerns. Is there anything else that I should do?

Is ambient temp or floor temp more important for tortoises? I am not familiar with their prime method of thermoregulation.

Right now the average high during the day is anywhere from 75-85 deg. depending on the day. When I am not at work and the day is warm enough, I have been putting him outside under the sun to give him some UV light and let him stretch out. Since he's been getting the medication, he just lays there and doesn't move much. Unfortunately I am not home during the day and we have dogs in the house, so I would not want to leave him alone in the yard.

4. Here are some examples of night boxes that will work well where you are. There are a couple of different, safe, heating strategies here:

The place he is in right now is temporary. On my previous post, I put a slightly old picture of the current house that I am building for him outside. The house is very large (6' x 6') and all the walls are fully insulated with fiberglass (sealed so that the fiberglass does not affect the tortoise). I initially raised the house about 18" off the ground in order to avoid water damaging the bottom of the house with plans to build a ramp for the tortoise, but I am now regretting my decision because I am worried that he will not be inclined to climb up into the house at such an elevation. Did I make a mistake on this or will he be okay with climbing up the ramp? This is slightly off topic, so I can make a new thread if necessary.

Thank you again for the advice.

 

[AliM29]

Yes those temps are good. You could even go to 90 degrees, so long as you keep those temps up. Also, you obviously was given bad advice from previous owners. Sulcatas can barely survive in 50,degrees, BUT they will not thrive. And, at those temps, it would be cruel and just put them at risk of RI. One other thing, I don't know if you have a temp gun, but you should measure the temps of his top carapace directly under his heat lamp. Depending on the lighting you're using (btw, it should be a light that gives off UVB), if the bulb is 100w, the light should be about 12" from his top shell. Measuring the heat that it radiates, you can adjust the levels to get at about 95-100 degrees. What you don't want is to overheat the shell and thus, burning it. Of course, the higher the wattage, the higher the distance it should be from the top shell.

I am using this light currently: http://amzn.com/B0002DIAY8. It is 250 watts and placed about 32" above the floor, so about 24" off of his shell. It's difficult to lower it any further and still stay safe (in regards to mounting). Should I get a different source that also provides UVB? I put him outside a couple of times a week, but I don't think that is enough for him.

 

[sibi]

First of all, I commend you for all your efforts. He will learn to walk the ramp and into the warm house. You'll need to build a small wall on each side so that they'll feel safe to walk it. I used cement blocks to build the sides, and I reinforced it with bars. I converted a shed into an insulated house. I have the pig blankets, Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) for heat and UVB, humidifier, a backup heater as well as the main heater. Here's what it looks like.

It's ok to have the ceramic heat emitter above him so long as it's elevated enough that temps on his back are no higher than 100 degrees. He may even want to sleep there.
Another thing I'm extremely concerned about is that you have dogs. Torts and dogs should NEVER be together, not even for a second. I wouldn't even let the dogs see the tortoise. Is the enclosure you have him in temporarily in a separate room? Because, that room should always have the door closed so that, when you're at work, the dogs can't get to him. We have some real tragedies here of dog attacks on torts. You may want to read Tom's personal story of a deadly dog attack on his torts. He'll have to give you the thread.

 

[AliM29]

My dogs have no access to the tortoise. I definitely make sure of that. In addition, the new outdoor enclosure that I am building is planned to be tortoise escape proof and dog access proof.

 

[sibi]

Oh, and don't forget about humidity. If you can put in a humidifier in the room, it will help him recover faster. And, yes, temps on the ground level is more important. You can have a room reading in the 80's, but if the floor readings are in the 60's, your tort is still very cold, and his behavior will show it.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

What I see is a sick tortoise on a very cold floor. He needs to be 85 to 90 degrees, He cannot digest his food unless his insides are 85 degrees. Get him off that cold floor. Antibiotics usually make them not want to eat, so warm him up off that floor, make his ambient temp 85 to 90 and the basking light 100 degrees. He cannot drink out of that tiny dish. He needs to put his whole head under the water to drink. I'd bet my Camaro he's dehydrated too. I
He needs to be soaked everyday everyday. Please read the care sheets for the sake of you tortoise make the necessary changes.....

 

[sibi]

I agree with maggie. As far as the bulb is concerned, I personally like the mercury vapor bulbs 100w for two reasons: It provides the uvb your tort is lacking in the winter months where they don't go out cause of the cold. And, because it provides heat all in one bulb. If your tort goes out just twice a week, he's probably not getting the UVA/B he needs. Depending on what you feed him, he may need some calcium supplement in his diet. That combined with natural sunlight will convert calcium into vitamin D3, which is what he needs.

 

[Tom]

I am using this light currently: http://amzn.com/B0002DIAY8. It is 250 watts and placed about 32" above the floor, so about 24" off of his shell. It's difficult to lower it any further and still stay safe (in regards to mounting). Should I get a different source that also provides UVB? I put him outside a couple of times a week, but I don't think that is enough for him.

Shame about your vet… Tortoises don't just get sick for no reason. It is inconceivable to me that a vet would prescribe harsh drugs to alleviate a symptom, but not even consider solving the problem that CAUSED the symptom in the first place...

It sounds like you have got all the right info now and know what you need to do. Your new night house will work great, but heating all that airspace might prove expensive and difficult. Certainly doable though. A radiant oil heater should get it done. A large wide ramp wide some 10-12" sides should make your tortoise feel comfortable enough to walk into it. You may have to put him in there every night for a while until he learns to go in on is own. What I like is that the tortoise can get under the house on hot days to find shade and stay cooler. He will probably burrow under there.

I would order or buy a Kane heat mat ASAP to put under your tortoise on that floor. Then you can use the big heater to maintain ambient and the Kane mat to keep him warmer down on the floor. You can also use both of these items in the big night house once you get it all set up. It will be easier to heat the night box than it is to heat the entire room where he is now. I also think you might want to switch to a radiant oil filled heater outside. It will be safer over the long term in the dirty, dusty conditions outside, and even though it is higher wattage, it will run less of the time and actually be more efficient.

 

[AliM29]

Oh, and don't forget about humidity. If you can put in a humidifier in the room, it will help him recover faster. And, yes, temps on the ground level is more important. You can have a room reading in the 80's, but if the floor readings are in the 60's, your tort is still very cold, and his behavior will show it.

I ordered him a UV/heat lamp, a humidifier, an ambient temp/humidity gauge, as well as a heat gun to get surface temps. I also put down an electric heating blanket on the floor, so he should be much better off. I soaked him today for an hour in 90-94 deg. water and he seems to enjoy it. I attached some pictures of him and the new setup with a heated blanket.

Shame about your vet… Tortoises don't just get sick for no reason. It is inconceivable to me that a vet would prescribe harsh drugs to alleviate a symptom, but not even consider solving the problem that CAUSED the symptom in the first place...

It sounds like you have got all the right info now and know what you need to do. Your new night house will work great, but heating all that airspace might prove expensive and difficult. Certainly doable though. A radiant oil heater should get it done. A large wide ramp wide some 10-12" sides should make your tortoise feel comfortable enough to walk into it. You may have to put him in there every night for a while until he learns to go in on is own. What I like is that the tortoise can get under the house on hot days to find shade and stay cooler. He will probably burrow under there.

I would order or buy a Kane heat mat ASAP to put under your tortoise on that floor. Then you can use the big heater to maintain ambient and the Kane mat to keep him warmer down on the floor. You can also use both of these items in the big night house once you get it all set up. It will be easier to heat the night box than it is to heat the entire room where he is now. I also think you might want to switch to a radiant oil filled heater outside. It will be safer over the long term in the dirty, dusty conditions outside, and even though it is higher wattage, it will run less of the time and actually be more efficient.

I am using a human electric blanket to warm the floors. I don't have a temperature reading of it yet, but I bought a temp gun and will know for sure once I get it in. The electric blanket has multiple settings, so I am hoping that it will keep the floor warm. For the outdoor cage, I was actually considering buying one of these: http://pro-products.com/pro-heat/. They're pretty pricy, but every professional reptile keeper that I know has been raving about them. I've never used them, so I cannot attest to their quality.

 

[Pearly]

He sure is a very pretty tortoise, and you my friend seem to be very commited to his wellbeing. You are in very good hands with all the advise you are getting from the very experienced sulcata keepers. I know all about trying to do the right thing for the animal by following tons of conflicting advise that's out there. I'm glad you found this forum. Stick around and keep us posted. I sure hioe your sully gets well very soon

 

[Tom]

I ordered him a UV/heat lamp, a humidifier, an ambient temp/humidity gauge, as well as a heat gun to get surface temps. I also put down an electric heating blanket on the floor, so he should be much better off. I soaked him today for an hour in 90-94 deg. water and he seems to enjoy it. I attached some pictures of him and the new setup with a heated blanket.



I am using a human electric blanket to warm the floors. I don't have a temperature reading of it yet, but I bought a temp gun and will know for sure once I get it in. The electric blanket has multiple settings, so I am hoping that it will keep the floor warm. For the outdoor cage, I was actually considering buying one of these: http://pro-products.com/pro-heat/. They're pretty pricy, but every professional reptile keeper that I know has been raving about them. I've never used them, so I cannot attest to their quality.

Your tortoise does not need indoor UV. He gets plenty of sunshine, so you can skip this expensive step.

Human heating devices are generally not safe for reptiles. The potential for a hot spot or getting tangled with the cord is high. I can see you are trying hard and I don't want to frustrate you, but you need a heat mat designed for animals. Something like this: http://www.kanemfg.com/pet-heating/

The RHPs you are looking at are great, but they don't really fit your application. I use this brand and love them: http://www.reptilebasics.com/rbi-radiant-heat-panels
I use them in my outdoor boxes that are two feet tall. In the boxes housing smaller tortoises, I actually have to lower them with home made 2x4 brackets to get them close enough to be effective. They only work from a few inches away and only in small, well insulated, confined spaces. They are designed to safely heat relatively small enclosures that house large constrictor snakes.

I know you will get this all sorted out, and I hope our tips will help along the way.