Sulcata woke up acting unusual, not eating - help?

zovick

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My vet specified two doses total.

Because of the way in which Panacur (fenbendazole) works to kill parasites, it is more effective if it is given for several consecutive days (from 3 up to 5 straight days are even recommended). Here is a scientific article excerpted from the book "Understanding Reptile Parasites" written by an experienced reptile vet stating this in no uncertain terms. Maybe you folks should bring it to the attention of your vets to see if they agree after reading it. The link below will also allow one to purchase the book itself via Kindle or as a paperback:

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Rep...es-Nematode-Parasites-Treatment-Fenbendazole/
 

Jay Bagley

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Because of the way in which Panacur (fenbendazole) works to kill parasites, it is more effective if it is given for several consecutive days (from 3 up to 5 straight days are even recommended). Here is a scientific article excerpted from the book "Understanding Reptile Parasites" written by an experienced reptile vet stating this in no uncertain terms. Maybe you folks should bring it to the attention of your vets to see if they agree after reading it. The link below will also allow one to purchase the book itself via Kindle or as a paperback:

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Rep...es-Nematode-Parasites-Treatment-Fenbendazole/
I am not doubting you, but at the same time if a single dose every two weeks will get the job done, I am good with that. The less poison I have to pump into his body the better. I don't know if I ever came across any old posts where they did it three consecutive days. I have come across some where they were doing the one dose every two weeks.
 

zovick

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I am not doubting you, but at the same time if a single dose every two weeks will get the job done, I am good with that. The less poison I have to pump into his body the better. I don't know if I ever came across any old posts where they did it three consecutive days. I have come across some where they were doing the one dose every two weeks.


Hi Jay,

If you read the article I referenced in that post you quoted, you will see that almost no Panacur is absorbed by the tortoise itself. It is passed through the tortoise's digestive tract virtually unchanged. IE, it does not poison the animal, it just kills the parasites. Because of that, it is considered to be very safe.

Looking through old posts from laymen is not going to give you the proper information on the drug or how it works.

The rationale for doing 3-5 days in a row is that a single dose is usually not sufficient to kill all the parasites. It takes the repeated doses to effectively wipe out the adult parasites. Then the subsequent doses two or three weeks later kill the parasites which were in earlier life stages during the first doses and therefore may not have been killed such as eggs and certain larval stages.

I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to fully explain the reasons for the regimen which is recommended by the vets I use and know personally.
 
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Markw84

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Hi Jay,

If you read the article I referenced in that post you quoted, you will see that almost no Panacur is absorbed by the tortoise itself. It is passed through the tortoise's digestive tract virtually unchanged. IE, it does not poison the animal, it just kills the parasites. Because of that, it is considered to be very safe.

Looking through old posts from laymen is not going to give you the proper information on the drug or how it works.

The rationale for doing 3-5 days in a row is that a single dose is usually not sufficient to kill all the parasites. It takes the repeated doses to effectively wipe out the adult parasites. Then the subsequent doses two or three weeks later kill the parasites which were in earlier life stages during the first doses and therefore may not have been killed such as eggs and certain larval stages.

I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to fully explain the reasons for the regimen which is recommended by the vets I use and know personally.
I agree with Bill. When using panacur, the consecutive days is much more effective. Most vets do seem to perscribe a single dose repeated 2 - 3 times, but to better match the speed food passes through a tortoise, I see the value of Klingenbergs finding. Panacur has such an unbelievably wide safety margin, there is really no risk to an otherwise healthy animal. To be much more effective at eliminating a worm, the multiple doses is far more reliable.

I will add, however, in the same book referenced, Klingenberg does say he feels pinworms are a normal and even beneficial gut flora for tortoises and rarely recommends treatment unless symptoms of weigh loss, lethargy, diarrhea, etc are present indicating an unusually large load has built up.

With good enclosure hygiene and especially daily baths, you will find pinworm loads will not build up and in fact will stabilize in "normal" light levels. For me, I believe the best way to "treat" pinworms is to go through a month of very strict daily cleaning of water and food, pick any fecal matter out of the enclosure as soon as seen, and soak daily for at least 30 minutes. The tortoise will normally poop in the bath and there will be little in the enclosure. By keeping exposure to new eggs to a very minimum this way, the load of pinworms will dramatically reduce in that month to "normal" healthy levels.
 

zovick

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I agree with Bill. When using panacur, the consecutive days is much more effective. Most vets do seem to perscribe a single dose repeated 2 - 3 times, but to better match the speed food passes through a tortoise, I see the value of Klingenbergs finding. Panacur has such an unbelievably wide safety margin, there is really no risk to an otherwise healthy animal. To be much more effective at eliminating a worm, the multiple doses is far more reliable.

I will add, however, in the same book referenced, Klingenberg does say he feels pinworms are a normal and even beneficial gut flora for tortoises and rarely recommends treatment unless symptoms of weigh loss, lethargy, diarrhea, etc are present indicating an unusually large load has built up.

With good enclosure hygiene and especially daily baths, you will find pinworm loads will not build up and in fact will stabilize in "normal" light levels. For me, I believe the best way to "treat" pinworms is to go through a month of very strict daily cleaning of water and food, pick any fecal matter out of the enclosure as soon as seen, and soak daily for at least 30 minutes. The tortoise will normally poop in the bath and there will be little in the enclosure. By keeping exposure to new eggs to a very minimum this way, the load of pinworms will dramatically reduce in that month to "normal" healthy levels.

What Mark says regarding pinworms is correct. They occur in small numbers in many healthy tortoises. The need to treat tortoises for minor populations of pinworms is often debated.

I do know that in tortoises whose health is otherwise compromised, pinworms can be very opportunistic parasites. In other words, if the tortoise is stressed via an infection, or simply by moving it to a new environment, etc., the pinworm population often becomes much greater, and it then become a necessity to treat for them to reduce the extra stress they are causing on the tortoise's system.
 

Jay Bagley

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Thank you both, and I truly mean that. Like I said I was just going by what vet said.
 

Jay Bagley

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Hi Jay,

If you read the article I referenced in that post you quoted, you will see that almost no Panacur is absorbed by the tortoise itself. It is passed through the tortoise's digestive tract virtually unchanged. IE, it does not poison the animal, it just kills the parasites. Because of that, it is considered to be very safe.

Looking through old posts from laymen is not going to give you the proper information on the drug or how it works.

The rationale for doing 3-5 days in a row is that a single dose is usually not sufficient to kill all the parasites. It takes the repeated doses to effectively wipe out the adult parasites. Then the subsequent doses two or three weeks later kill the parasites which were in earlier life stages during the first doses and therefore may not have been killed such as eggs and certain larval stages.

I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to fully explain the reasons for the regimen which is recommended by the vets I use and know personally.
Hey Zovick,

I worked a 12-hour shift last night, so when I read these I was pretty tired and ready for bed. So I hope I didn't sound like I was being argumentative either. I just wanted to say thank you for posting that article, it definitely opened up a new door to the way I thought I should do treatment. I need to keep in mind that I am new to this, and not be narrow-minded to others views. It's really the only way I'm ever going to get good at this and confident in my care. So please keep the advice coming, it's very much appreciated.
 

zovick

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Hey Zovick,

I worked a 12-hour shift last night, so when I read these I was pretty tired and ready for bed. So I hope I didn't sound like I was being argumentative either. I just wanted to say thank you for posting that article, it definitely opened up a new door to the way I thought I should do treatment. I need to keep in mind that I am new to this, and not be narrow-minded to others views. It's really the only way I'm ever going to get good at this and confident in my care. So please keep the advice coming, it's very much appreciated.

No problem, Jay. I have been keeping turtles since 1952 and tortoises since 1958, so I have had just a bit of experience. I was also a Field Associate in Herpetology with the Bronx Zoo from 1976 through 2006 and got to work directly and indirectly with many respected reptile vets who were on the staff or otherwise affiliated with the zoo. This was a relationship whose value cannot be overstated, and I don't mind sharing some of what I have learned both from that relationship and my own personal experiences with others.
 

Kasia

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No problem, Jay. I have been keeping turtles since 1952 and tortoises since 1958, so I have had just a bit of experience. I was also a Field Associate in Herpetology with the Bronx Zoo from 1976 through 2006 and got to work directly and indirectly with many respected reptile vets who were on the staff or otherwise affiliated with the zoo. This was a relationship whose value cannot be overstated, and I don't mind sharing some of what I have learned both from that relationship and my own personal experiences with others.
.....And my greatest virtue is modesty ...NOT .... ;) just a joke ... I am very happy that I/we have so experienced guys like you here Zovick ;) Thanks for the great info;)
 

zovick

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.....And my greatest virtue is modesty ...NOT .... ;) just a joke ... I am very happy that I/we have so experienced guys like you here Zovick ;) Thanks for the great info;)

Take it however you like, Kasia. It is your prerogative. Anyone who knows me knows that I am as modest as they come. I merely stated the facts about my background to indicate to certain readers that I really do know from my own personal experiences that what I was saying about the use of Panacur was correct.
 

Jay Bagley

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No problem, Jay. I have been keeping turtles since 1952 and tortoises since 1958, so I have had just a bit of experience. I was also a Field Associate in Herpetology with the Bronx Zoo from 1976 through 2006 and got to work directly and indirectly with many respected reptile vets who were on the staff or otherwise affiliated with the zoo. This was a relationship whose value cannot be overstated, and I don't mind sharing some of what I have learned both from that relationship and my own personal experiences with others.
You sound like an awesome individual. Being surrounded by tortoises and turtles for over a half a century, I have no doubt you know your stuff. I've always been fascinated by herpetology, you got to do it for a living... I think that's fantastic. Thanks again.
 

zovick

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You sound like an awesome individual. Being surrounded by tortoises and turtles for over a half a century, I have no doubt you know your stuff. I've always been fascinated by herpetology, you got to do it for a living... I think that's fantastic. Thanks again.

Actually, it was not my vocation, but my avocation. I did it as a very enjoyable hobby. I was a full-time dentist from the time of my graduation from dental school in 1971 until 2014 and I am still practicing dentistry part-time now.
 

vladimir

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So Vlad had an upset stomach on Thursday so we ended up giving him the Panacur two days earlier than scheduled. After administering the prescribed dosage, there was about a half a dose leftover, so we gave that to him the next day.

We found that using pieces of red bell pepper we were able to make a little "dish" the medicine could sit in, and it made it easy for him to get most of it swallowed.

Time to get a sample down to the vet for another test.
 

Jay Bagley

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So Vlad had an upset stomach on Thursday so we ended up giving him the Panacur two days earlier than scheduled. After administering the prescribed dosage, there was about a half a dose leftover, so we gave that to him the next day.

We found that using pieces of red bell pepper we were able to make a little "dish" the medicine could sit in, and it made it easy for him to get most of it swallowed.

Time to get a sample down to the vet for another test.
Good idea, and good luck. Hoping you get some good results back from the test.
 

vladimir

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So Vlad had an upset stomach on Thursday so we ended up giving him the Panacur two days earlier than scheduled. After administering the prescribed dosage, there was about a half a dose leftover, so we gave that to him the next day.

We found that using pieces of red bell pepper we were able to make a little "dish" the medicine could sit in, and it made it easy for him to get most of it swallowed.

Time to get a sample down to the vet for another test.

Just confirmed today's test results - he's now negative for pinworms!

Just in time for his new enclosure to get finished up so he can move in. :D
 

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