Sulcata won't eat much, might need to poop

ZamTheMan

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Hello all, I have some concerns about my tortoise. I know I could post in some other threads, but sometimes they go unanswered or lost, so I thought I'd play safe and make a new thread. Whichever mod that wants to move it can when they like. I have posted here once before. My family recently rescued a Sulcata tortoise, and I came here for aid. I've found everything quite helpful. While my tort's enclosure is not the best as of yet, he seems to be doing ok, except for some days where I go into a panic when I think something's wrong. We have a heat bulb, gotten him some tortoise pellets to eat and usually mix them with mustard greens, which he loves, as well as kale. The bulb I think reaches to temps of around 80-100, and he is soaked daily at least once or 2-3 times a day in nice warm water, which he stays in on his own for hours at a time until he gets up and out on his own. He sometimes drinks the water too. Once he got comfortable and used to being around people, I started taking him out of his pen when he got active and took him into my room so he had some room to roam around wherever he pleased maybe once a day or so so he got exercise, and make sure my room is at least warm enough for him for roughly a half hour. When he settles down into a corner, I would put him back in his pen. So far he hasn't had any issues, aside from one case of him having diarrhea. After that though he has pooped normally. He eats out of a little dish maybe a half the size of his body, and it's always stacked with greens and a few pellets. He mostly eats every bite, and sometimes has seconds. Only rarely will he leave food on his plate, like today. Last night he ate almost everything on his plate, yet this morning he just doesn't seem to want to eat. From what I can tell, they eat a lot, so not seeing him eat automatically made me go into panic mode. Is it possible he might just not be hungry? He also hasn't been pooping too much, maybe once every few days to a week, and it worries me greatly. I read that they are known to eat their poop, but I don't want to assume that. We tried giving him pumpkin since it's supposed to be a laxative, but he never eats it. Also, the one thing we do not have yet for his shelter is proper humidity. I do not know how I would maintain humidity in his pen, which this I think might be the problem. What kind of substrate would I need and be able to get during winter? He's currently in a hamster cage filled with timothy hay on the direction of a zoo caretaker. I try to make up for the lack of humidity with regular soaking, which I know isn't going to be enough or make up for it, but I'm trying my best. It is January now, and I live on the east coast in PA, so currently the climate is dry and cold, the worst season to rescue a reptile. As soon as my family can find it, we were going to replace the timothy hay with proper soil. Most stores around here aren't going to be selling soil in the dead of winter. I know there are specific care sheets on here too, and I'm doing my best to gather information from as many sources as I can, some of them contradicting each other. The problem is is that, I'll just be honest and say we do not have a lot of money to throw around right now, so we're taking his care step by step as best we can. Thank you all for the help in advance!

I will add pictures tomorrow. Currently Gamera is asleep in his pen with tin foil around it to retain heat, as suggested by a user on this forum, as well as having a low-light heat heating bulb. I do however have a recent picture of him.
 

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Tom

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"The bulb I think reaches to temps of around 80-100…"

You need to know his temps. All four of them. Warm side, cool side, basking area and over night low.

What are you doing for night heat?

That substrate is much too dry and your cage is much too small.

Your diet needs much more variety and less kale.

Putting him in a bowl he can walk out of at will is not soaking.

It is not safe to let him roam on the floor and its too cold down there, even in a "warm" room. Many tortoises die from this practice.

What are you using for UV?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing out the potential causes of your issue. Fix all of these things and your issue will disappear.

All the care info is right here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
 

ZamTheMan

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"The bulb I think reaches to temps of around 80-100…"

You need to know his temps. All four of them. Warm side, cool side, basking area and over night low.

What are you doing for night heat?

That substrate is much too dry and your cage is much too small.

Your diet needs much more variety and less kale.

Putting him in a bowl he can walk out of at will is not soaking.

It is not safe to let him roam on the floor and its too cold down there, even in a "warm" room. Many tortoises die from this practice.

What are you using for UV?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing out the potential causes of your issue. Fix all of these things and your issue will disappear.

All the care info is right here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

I know you're not being mean. I want to give them as good a home as I can. I'm trying to make sure he's happy and healthy as best I can with what we can get.

We don't have a proper thermometer right now, at least not specifically for reptile enclosures, but I'll start looking for one.

The bulb is an Exo Terra Basking Light: http://www.petsmart.com/gsi/webstor...LK9OS3FXBEWNjpAwZ_2fr513E9jx2jwutEaAqWa8P8HAQ
It's a hundred watts and can reach 131 degrees directly under the light. It's an infrared light. Only looking at it now do I see it gives off no UV rays...

For night we have a Zilla Night Black Heat Incandescent bulb: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VGZ15G/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
This light is 75 watts and can reach 85 degrees.

I thought the same about the cage and substrate after some research, but we don't have anything else for substrate as of right now. What would you suggest we can get for the dead of winter? I was already planning on getting topsoil the moment it's in stores, since it's one of few substrates that is consistent among various sources. Though some suggest adding in sand, which I won't do. Heck, I'd go outside and dig up some soil for him (we don't use chemicals or anything in our yard) if I could, but it's 3" deep under snow and more than likely frozen solid. As for the cage, I know it's a bit small, but it was all we had at the time. We're waiting to maybe get a bigger tank for cheap, which are usually $200+ and drop to about $50-80 when on sale.

He has mustard greens, spring mix, and kale, as well as tortoise pellets we sprinkle on top. We rarely give him the kale to begin with. Usually we feed him the mustard greens since he eats those the most. More variety is doable though. Next trip out to the store, I'll be sure to look for some more he might enjoy. Also, is there a way to get him to eat pumpkin? Every attempt he's either ignored it or walked through it. I've read it's supposed to be a laxative, and I worry about him going to the bathroom. But he just won't eat it.

In terms of soaking, nothing I've read is really specific, and mostly geared towards hatchlings. I'm not entirely sure what age my tortoise is, but he's roughly 6" in length if that gives anyone a general idea, unless that is still considered a "hatchling". Should I just use a pool of some sort that he can't just climb out of on his own? The water is usually pretty warm and fresh every time we put him in it, and he stays in there for at least an hour on his own before getting out, sometimes drinks out of it too. So I figured he's doing what I'm supposed to be doing for him on his own.

If it is too cold on the floor despite heating up my room, I'll stop taking him out of his pen. Sometimes he seems antsy and he's doing laps around his enclosure, sometimes climbing on things and digging in the corners, so I try to give him some room to roam freely since I can't take him outside this time of year. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's unfortunate we had to find him in the worst possible season, not that that's meant to be an excuse. I just wish I could let him outside on a humid summer day to make up for the lack of things we have right now.

I was under the impression the light we got him would be what he needed, but I only now found the box my mother got, and as I said before, it unfortunately does not give off UV rays. Should we take back this basking light and get something that gives off UV instead?

To add, his shell doesn't feel soft to me, something I keep seeing with people's concerns on this forum while I was looking for answers before posting myself. He's also active off and on. The day before yesterday he was constantly active and barely sat still, clearing his plate of food and all. Yet, yesterday he was mostly in the corners of his pen sprawled out and sleeping and not eating very much. He hasn't gone to the bathroom to my knowledge, but as I said before I read that they sometimes eat their poop, but I don't wanna rely on that idea. He's recently started to dig into one of the corners of his enclosure, which I read was normal since they're technically not meant to be in an enclosure at all, and it's in their nature to roam and dig. He's also had a shelter almost constantly in his pen, but only recently has he seemed uninterested in going in it. I think it may be too dry or cool for him, since he's favored staying under the bulb as of late, oddly right when the snow started to fall outside. That's all the information I have about him and his behavior. I'll go back and read through the care sheets again. If anyone has any more questions or suggestions, by all means let me know.
 

Tom

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I would like to try and help. Let me list some things that you can do cheaply and make some suggestions.

Part of the reason things seem so expensive is because you are shopping at pet stores. Get out of the pet store and into the hardware store.

You need white light during the day. Just use a regular incandescent bulb. I 100 or 10 watt flood will heat a large area. You need to adjust the height to get the right temp under it. Digital, remote probed thermometers are about $10 at the hardware store too. Digital timers are less than $10.

Your black light is okay for night time for now, but you might need more than one in a larger enclosure. I prefer to use Ceramic Heating Elements set on a thermostat. Black lights tend to bun out early, often and at the most inconvenient times. Have a spare on hand if you are going to use that. You can sometimes find them for less than $2 at the hardware store.

For an enclosure, get a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Put some 16-24" tall walls on it with 2x3s for framing and you will be good to go for a while. Plywood is $20 a sheet and you'll need a few $2 2x3s and some screws.

Pick up some orchid bark or cypress mulch from a local garden center while you are out. 2 big bags fill fill it up for you.

Get a large flat rock or a $2 paver for under the basking lamp, and pick up two 12" terra cotta saucers for water and food. Sink them into the substrate for best results.

I large opaque plastic tub flipped up side down with a door hole will make a nice humid hide. Wet the substrate under this and put a couple of rocks, bricks or pavers on top of it, so he doesn't drag it under the heat lamps.

A couple of boulders, potted plants or logs will add some visual barriers and make it feel more "homey" to him.

SInce you live in an area with frozen winters and your tortoise will be stuck inside for months at a time, you are going to need to provide a good UV source. I don't have a cheap solution for this problem. A simple mercury vapor bulb instead of the regular incandescent seems to be the easiest solution for you. Just screw it into the existing fixture and you are good to go. If you prefer, you can get a 48" strip outlet, mount it 10-12" from the substrate and put a ZooMed 10.0 bulb in it. The HO bulbs work MUCH better, but also cost more.

Speaking of fixtures, use this one:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Designers-Edge-10-1-2-in-Brooder-Lamp-with-Hang-Hook-0165/204667675

Soaking: If you don't want to spend money, just use your bath tub. Rinse any cleaning chemicals out of it, fill it with warm water about halfway up his shell and soak him three times a week for about 30-45 minutes. Warm up he water as need during the soak so it doesn't get cold. The exercise of marching around in the slippery tub will do him good too. When finished use a kitty litter scooper to put the large chances and fibers in the toilet for flushing and rinse the small particles down the drain. A little bleach spray will keep it sanitary between soakings. If not, go buy a dedicated tub for him. You want it large with tall opaque sides. 18 gallon plastic bins are about $6 at Walmart, Target or the hardware store.

Diet: If you must use grocery store greens favor endive and escarole. Add in lots of other things for variety. Collard, turnip and mustard greens are good. Cilantro, bok choy, carrot tops, celery tops, grated squash of any type, dandelion greens, squash leaves, spineless opuntia pads from the Mexican grocery stores, etc… Read that diet sheet I linked above for more ideas. Most grocery store foods are lacking in fiber. You can fix this by mixing in soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets or some soaked, chopped grass hay. I prefer bermuda hay or orchard grass hay. Know any body with a horse? Feed stores will often let you scavenge the loose hay off the floor of their hay area. A plastic grocery store bag full would last you a long time. Chop it up with scissors and soak it in warm water for 30-40 minutes. Then thoroughly mix it in with the day's greens. Start with a tiny amount at first and gradually add more over the span of weeks. Eventually, when your tortoise is larger, he can eat just plain dry grass hay and this can be the bulk of his diet. Now is the time to begin introducing it.

Digest all this info and then come back with questions. You seem like a good person and I'd like to see you have success.
 

Speedy-1

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He would be better off in one of those big plastic tubs (for xmas tree storage) the bigger the better , at least you could maintain humidity. It is impossible to do in an open cage . I soak Speedy in a dish tub I bought at WM for 2 dollars I put warm water so it is about halfway up his shell , he will soak for 45 minutes to an hour. When he starts running around it is too cool , so he comes out. You need a CHE rather than a bulb for night heat. You can buy reptibark , or coco coir at any pet smart , its not the best but its better than hay . I think you should figure out what you can afford to spend , and do some shopping. I know things can be tight but anything , starting with his enclosure , would be an improvement . ;)
 

ZamTheMan

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Thank you all for all the help, I'll be sure to keep this up for references and study it thoroughly, as well as the care sheets you've linked me. If I have any more questions I'll let you know. Until then I'll work on what you've said to the best of my abilities. Though it's not the best quality or a good reference, did Gamera look alright in the picture I attached in my first post? I worry about his skin since I see stuff about mouth and shell rot. It was hard to even get that picture, since I sat there for roughly 10min with my phone waiting for him to pull his head out enough without getting up in his face or with flash on.
 

Speedy-1

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Hard to say much from that pic , but Sulcatas are not prone to shell rot , and considering his dry conditions I wouldn't think so .
 

Tom

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Thank you all for all the help, I'll be sure to keep this up for references and study it thoroughly, as well as the care sheets you've linked me. If I have any more questions I'll let you know. Until then I'll work on what you've said to the best of my abilities. Though it's not the best quality or a good reference, did Gamera look alright in the picture I attached in my first post? I worry about his skin since I see stuff about mouth and shell rot. It was hard to even get that picture, since I sat there for roughly 10min with my phone waiting for him to pull his head out enough without getting up in his face or with flash on.

Speedy is right. Shell rot is VERY unlikely. Mouth rot is unlikely too.
 

Judith Gardner

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Speedy is right. Shell rot is VERY unlikely. Mouth rot is unlikely too.

I live in Florida, but currently I am in the very cold state of Illinois and yes I did bring my baby sulcata with me. There has been and still is some snow on the ground here but, he still gets his grass every day, I bundle up go out side and knock the snow back off the still green grass under it and cut grass for Toruk to eat, he loves it, I have even managed to find some dandelion leafs to add to his grass, I brought some hibiscus leafs with me from Florida and cactus pads, also brought the Mazuri tortoise chow. You can feed well and correctly in most any place and leave the grocery store greens at the grocery store. Of course, opinions are like butt holes, we all have one.... Hope your tortoises gets to eating better for you soon.
 

ZamTheMan

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He has been eating better, especially after we got him a few new things to try, even started eating pumpkin too! Just out of curiosity, how often would pumpkin be ok to give him? It's a "treat" right? So maybe once a week at most? I've also noticed he has his moments where he inhales food for a few days, then won't eat too much for a day or two, then start inhaling food again. I figured the shell/mouth rot was a more humid, or too humid issue as well, but I worry so thought I'd ask just in case.

A few more questions I have, sorry still learning here... Gamera passed white poop the other day, and after I went into a panic and looked up some things, I learned it was urate, which is normal and mostly caused by his system passing calcium and/or dehydration. I highly doubt it's any kind of infection, but I know it's only worth worrying about if it keeps happening more than maybe a few weeks at a time. If it's dehydration, how can I get him to drink more? I've noticed he only drinks water when we soak him, and every attempt to have him drink out of anything else, he's either ignored it or tipped over whatever we're using as a bowl. We use a little plate for his food, and I've put a small lid next to his food with water in it in case he's thirsty, yet he ignores it. But once I placed him in his water, he drank instantly.
 

Bducks16

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Pumpkin purée is a natural dewormer. I throw in a half a can with mazuri once a week. With the water you can soak him more. Mine eventually started drinking from their bowl when they were large enough to reach their head in with out getting into the saucer. My water bowl is up against a corner of the wall so it can't be pushed around.
 
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