Sulcatas are aggressive and everyone should stop breeding????

[sibi]

While your statements sound reasonable, it really won't change things needing change. As Tom brought out, things will never be perfect because of human nature. As a rescue worker yourself, you know the challenges of trying to educate and inform people. There will always be those who will breed recklessly for a buck, not caring who get the hatchling, and not caring if it's raised badly. Can you stop those people from breeding? You know you can't. So why would people try to scare people into believing that sulcatas are taking homes away from the DT? Why would some make the sulcata a scapegoat? Why give the government more reasons to step in and infringe on the rights of all people to stop buying, selling, or breeding sullies? Like Tom mentioned, why give our enemies more ammunition to go after tortoise lovers?

Hello,
Never a dull moment on TF I want to make a comment and ask a few questions, but mostly I want to keep receiving notices about this thread as I am very interested.

My comment - early in this thread someone mentioned expensive adoption fees, yard inspections, must return it if you don't keep it yourself, can take it back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it, can't breed, and must sign a crazy contract...Something along those lines - no quote here. To me this does sound extreme. A large adoption fee, can take back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it specifically I think is overboard. But I do find some of the rest of it may hold water for me - as we are doing opinions here.

If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?

Next, breeding obviously goes against a rescue as that is only adding work to their load. Why hold it against a rescue for trying to keep their work load reasonable? They are after all getting these animals turned into them so they do exist.

Food for though - crazy contracts with the description I read I would have to agree. But what is wrong with a contract that is mostly to inform of what you are doing and allows the rescue recognition for their work with the authorities. Rescues can be audited by the authorities too and if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's they could lose the the right and capability to do a much needed job.

I am a rescue worker so breeding isn't for me. With that said, I do see the importance of quality breeders who share extremely important information with the pet public. I happen to think Tom (southern CA Dog Trainer) is an excellent example. There is respect for the species, accountability for what he breeds, and certainly he takes responsibility. The information he shares is invaluable. On the other hand there are plenty who are not any of those things and that is where I would disagree with breeding. So, I vote for more education as I am not a fan of the government

Answer away, but please let's play nice after all everyone here is a tortoise lover so we are connected

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

I agree with many of your points, except one.... sulcatas as lawn mowers. Mine do not seem to be up to the job and do rather lopsided at best "mowing". I wonder is there a school to train sulcatas how do a good job of mowing?

Too funny.
Okay, I stand corrected. So they do not go straight up and down and then across and all pretty and perfect. That is so last century lawn care anyways. No longer stylish.
The fashion forward person thinks sulcata. Why sulcata is the new green. Sulcatas are carbon neutral, free non-toxic weed eater/killers and they give back (literally) with wonderful compost amendments and/or organic fertilizer. Yeah, baby.
I ask you, what is not to love? Everyone who does not have other tortoises in their yard, should have one. And if you partake in more acreage, have another, or two. That is why God created barrier materials. And clumping grasses. And boulders for sight barriers. Use them.
The 2010 census tells me there are an estimated 114,825,428 households in the USA, give or take a few million I am sure.

Let's get busy educating all y'all, because the potential for happy, informed host homes for everyone is certainly there. All hail the tortoise, all tortoises! : )

 

[Tom]

Tom, and me, and others are part of the INFORMED sulcata owners. And a few of those INFORMED who do breed, as in the case of Tom, not for the money but for the love of the tortoise and with care. I apologize not to clearly include these people in my scenario.

My job has always been to tell the truth (sometimes in an often odd and funny way) about the nature of sulcata.

It's just sad that the INFORMED are in the minority. In my experience, the INFORMED always try to share good information because they CARE. I forgot that here on this forum, the INFORMED roam freely.

I appreciate and accept your apology. Thank you.


Still, I think the picture you paint is much more bleak than reality. I know at least a dozen people who breed sulcatas and not a one of them matches your description. All of them care very deeply about their animals and love them with the same passion as you or I. Now I am sure that there are some people out there who might match your description, but I think the ratio of bad ones to good ones is significantly better than you think. It would be just too much coincidence if every single breeder I know just happens to be one of the good guys and I have never met a single bad one.

Totally cool if people don't want to breed, or if they think we have enough sulcatas, but I just don't see the vast majority of people breeding these amazing animals as villains. If you do, that's okay. I just don't share your opinion.

 

[tortoiselady]

Thank you for reading and responding to my post, but I was not commenting on the scapegoat tactics - until now. I agree it is pathetic and the two really should be separate issues in my opinion.

I was really looking to defend the rescues that work very hard at what they do and acknowledge that not all rescues are created equal, like not all breeders are created equal. Someone posted a rather bleak comment about ALL breeders and I felt the same happened to rescues in this discussion. That was my real goal with my post.

As for the education part, I would much rather be part of the solution than the problem. I too do not care for the big government as stated before, but I am actively trying to educate to be part of the solution. The only way I can educate is to continue to learn and that is in part thanks to the quality responsible researchers that do breed.

While your statements sound reasonable, it really won't change things needing change. As Tom brought out, things will never be perfect because of human nature. As a rescue worker yourself, you know the challenges of trying to educate and inform people. There will always be those who will breed recklessly for a buck, not caring who get the hatchling, and not caring if it's raised badly. Can you stop those people from breeding? You know you can't. So why would people try to scare people into believing that sulcatas are taking homes away from the DT? Why would some make the sulcata a scapegoat? Why give the government more reasons to step in and infringe on the rights of all people to stop buying, selling, or breeding sullies? Like Tom mentioned, why give our enemies more ammunition to go after tortoise lovers?

Hello,
Never a dull moment on TF I want to make a comment and ask a few questions, but mostly I want to keep receiving notices about this thread as I am very interested.

My comment - early in this thread someone mentioned expensive adoption fees, yard inspections, must return it if you don't keep it yourself, can take it back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it, can't breed, and must sign a crazy contract...Something along those lines - no quote here. To me this does sound extreme. A large adoption fee, can take back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it specifically I think is overboard. But I do find some of the rest of it may hold water for me - as we are doing opinions here.

If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?

Next, breeding obviously goes against a rescue as that is only adding work to their load. Why hold it against a rescue for trying to keep their work load reasonable? They are after all getting these animals turned into them so they do exist.

Food for though - crazy contracts with the description I read I would have to agree. But what is wrong with a contract that is mostly to inform of what you are doing and allows the rescue recognition for their work with the authorities. Rescues can be audited by the authorities too and if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's they could lose the the right and capability to do a much needed job.

I am a rescue worker so breeding isn't for me. With that said, I do see the importance of quality breeders who share extremely important information with the pet public. I happen to think Tom (southern CA Dog Trainer) is an excellent example. There is respect for the species, accountability for what he breeds, and certainly he takes responsibility. The information he shares is invaluable. On the other hand there are plenty who are not any of those things and that is where I would disagree with breeding. So, I vote for more education as I am not a fan of the government

Answer away, but please let's play nice after all everyone here is a tortoise lover so we are connected

 

[turtlesteve]

Okay, I stand corrected. So they do not go straight up and down and then across and all pretty and perfect. That is so last century lawn care anyways. No longer stylish.
The fashion forward person thinks sulcata. Why sulcata is the new green. Sulcatas are carbon neutral, free non-toxic weed eater/killers and they give back (literally) with wonderful compost amendments and/or organic fertilizer. Yeah, baby.

Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree

Sibi, Tortoiselady,
As to rescues vs. breeders, I fail to see the conflict - are there any examples of reptile rescues publicly calling for breeding regulations? Have I just not heard of this before? Even if I disagree with most rescues' adoption policies, they have the right to do with their animals as they see fit, as long as they don't (forcibly) impose their standards on others.

 

[Tom]

If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?

I am all for playing nice, and I am glad we are all having this discussion. Its great that we can all be friends at the end of the day and still share our differing points of view.

I get your point about not all rescues being the same. I believe I mentioned the rescues that don't ask for all of this crazy stuff in my post that your were paraphrasing (not quoting). My point was not to say that rescues are bad, or that they are all the same. My point was to explain why some rescues have a whole bunch of sulcatas sitting around and other people have no problem placing as many as they come across. The more hoops to jump through and the more fees to pay, the more people will look for an easier/cheaper way to get a tortoise. Thats all. Rescues with less stringent requirements, or even local animal shelters, have no problem placing sulcatas into homes. Its okay if a rescue wants to make up contracts, do yard inspections and charge adoption fees. I have no problem with that. But I think most people would prefer to get a tortoise from a place that did not make them go through all that. Its pretty obvious that I'm right about this because rescues with high standards who create a bunch of hoops to jump through have a lot of sulcatas sitting around, and rescues that don't, don't. I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm not telling any rescue how to do business. I'm just pointing out what should be an obvious fact.

You also mentioned that you are a rescuer and not a breeder. And that breeding would make more work for you. I don't get this. Why can't a person do both? Breeding and selling healthy hatchlings to responsible people who will take good care of them has nothing to do with irresponsible people obtaining a pet and then dumping it on you when they get tired of it. This is two different groups of people doing two different things. And yes, I HAVE walked in those shoes. I have done a lot of rehabbing and rescuing over the years. When I place a tortoise, I don't do a yard inspection, collect a fee, or make them sign a contract. If I don't think they will do the right thing, I won't give or sell someone a tortoise. I have refused sales LOTS of times. Anyhow, I don't understand your either/or point of view on this one. I know lots of people who do both, and its not a conflict in my opinion.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree

turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend. Instead a lovely creature that once accommodated , can lower blood pressure and also do what I noted above. Educating people to look at it that way, would be great for our environment. Recent studies show/prove that a garden (native, drought tolerant, edible) is more cost efficient than a lawn and better for our environment and for birds and butterflies. These studies were shared by our Metro Water District. Woo hoo.

And once again, we simply must share with others in order to help and to educate ... which is why TFO is so wonderful. Ghandi said we are accountable for what we do and for what we do not do. Share.

Every tortoise should come with a little note that says, please join (or troll, like I did for a year LOL) TFO for the sake of your new pet.

And yeah, I agree about the HOA thing as some can be kinda Stepford Wife-ish. (eyes wide open).

 

[sibi]

Yes there have been rescues of RES because of overproduction of this breed. It had caused a huge health problem in some states. As a result, the government had to step in and restrict breeding and set restrictions. So, while rescuers do a great service to animals that are no longer wanted, they also tend to not encourage breeding. It's like polar opposites. It doesn't have to be like that, though. If rescuers educated people who wish to adopt animals, and accept that there are responsible breeders out there, then they wouldn't discourage breeding.

I fail to see the conflict - are there any examples of reptile rescues publicly calling for breeding regulations? Have I just not heard of this before? Even if I disagree with most rescues' adoption policies, they have the right to do with their animals as they see fit, as long as they don't (forcibly) impose their standards on others.

 

[Tom]

turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend.

But, but, but... my lawn is my tortoise food growing pasture. Where am I gonna get a five gallon buckets worth of food everyday without my lawn?

Can I get a special pass on this one?

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

But, but, but... my lawn is my tortoise food growing pasture. Where am I gonna get a five gallon buckets worth of food everyday without my lawn?
Can I get a special pass on this one?

I am such a knucklehead. Of course, hello? duh? Sulcatas love-love-love and need grass. I guess what I was seeing in my head and meant was that whole perfectly manicured lawn, all lawn everywhere that is so suburbia. The kind that was/is part of many homes in a Tim Burton Edward Scissorhands opening scene type of way. I remember hearing that called "synchronized suburbia" LOL.

You said it perfectly Tom, we need pasture gardens not lawny lawns. Thank you for noticing that right away. How can we say it? We need more tortoise friendly grass pasture gardens? Yeah, that's it. Grass pasture gardens. More of them, please. Tortoise happy. Me and you happy. : )

 

[wellington]

I like the lawn idea. It works for me. So much less work. Let the weeds grow. If all the other people, you know those weird ones that don't have a tortoise in their back yard. If they only could see how beautiful a yard is with a tortoise grazing in it

 

[sibi]

You're so funny BeeBee. Love all your remarks. You seem to be such an uppity positive person!

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Barb, tortoise people (rescues, local groups) should lobby water districts to partner and to encourage and support and heck as public benefit promote grass pasture gardens, all wild and weedy, and fun, and then have pictures to inspire people like they do with native gardens and drought tolerant and prairie garden models. Less water, more possible tortoise homes. If the mind set can be changed and people can visualize and actually see a garden that looks natural, is very low maintenance and is perfect for a sulcata, or any tortoise really. Boom. Solution. No tortoise left behind. : )

---

You're so funny BeeBee. Love all your remarks. You seem to be such an uppity positive person!

Thanks sibi. I am a happy tortoise geek. You can tell I love me the torties. I want more people to love them, too. And take care of them proper. : )

 

[sibi]

Lol BeeBee. Yeah! I can go for that! We can get those pix to the HOA people, and show them how to do it right. I can even bring my three sullies to help demonstrate it for them

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Yeah, HOA meeting with sibi's three sullies. Talk about eyes WIDE open. And gasps. The visual. Too funny.
But, talk about cost effectiveness and greater good for the environment, and therapy, and some, might take the pitch. Baby tortoise steps.

 

[Jacqui]

Less water, more possible tortoise homes. If the mind set can be changed and people can visualize and actually see a garden that looks natural, is very low maintenance and is perfect for a sulcata, or any tortoise really. Boom. Solution. No tortoise left behind. : )

I don't know about any of the rest of you, but using less water does not hold true with my place. The areas not being used for either natural grazing or to be harvested for them by me instead are not watered at all by me. I water for maximum production of plant (grass, blooms, ect) and also use water for tortoise streams/pools/mudwallows/ect. Any "lawn" areas are never watered, heck why do I want those areas to grow faster?? So almost 100% of outside water usage goes to the tortoise area. If you put in time spent harvesting, maintaining, seeding, planting, ect of those living food items for me it's much more then the time I spend mowing (and I mow for my neighbor too). For the record, I use a pushmower. Now you talked of cost, it costs less to mow in the summer months, then to heat and light the sulcatas over winter. Plus, in the sulcata enclosures there are always some plants that they choose to not eat or not eat after they get so high, that I still have to either mow or hand cut out. They do a better job then my other tortoises, but still they don't get everything even.

Not trying to be a negative person or to down your ideas any, but I also had to let you know this may work better (atleast on paper) in some areas more then others. I am also proud to live in a village where other then the church, I don't think anybody waters their lawns nor applies chemicals to them.

 

[sibi]

I can't get over the greenery on the NW of Oregon. One member's 5 acres look like it's still summer. I'm sure he doesn't water all that! I guess it really does depend where one lives.

 

[Yvonne G]

Somewhere up above a statement was made that all the baby sulcatas being raised are sold, no problem.

That's correct. The BABIES are very easy to find homes for, and those people are quite willing to actually PAY money for those babies.

I have a statement that I usually make when people come here to adopt a tortoise, "The pet stores sell these cute little baby sulcatas, then I get them 5 or 10 years later for free."

I'm pretty small potatoes, taking in only about 100 turtles and tortoises per year, but the majority of those that I take in are male sulcatas at around the 35 to 50lb range.

 

[Tom]

I'm pretty small potatoes, taking in only about 100 turtles and tortoises per year, but the majority of those that I take in are male sulcatas at around the 35 to 50lb range.

The majority of the 100 animals a year you take in are subadult male sulcatas? You are very good at finding homes for them then. I have only seen one or two when I've been there.

 

[Yvonne G]

I try to place every tortoise as quickly as possible to tone down the stress of being moved to a new home. I don't have people falling all over themselves to adopt sulcatas, and sometimes have to resort to running an ad in the paper to find a home. It's much harder for me to place a sulcata than it would be for me to sell a baby. Yes, I find homes for them, but I have to work pretty hard to do so.