Sulcatas are aggressive and everyone should stop breeding????

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Thats why we live in the USA we have the freedom to do what we please

* Amen!

* This was our last drop off, a very active male that destroyed the pen i put him in, lol!

This is the funniest thing I've read to date on this forum!!!
Ok, so the person who breeds the biggest, heaviest tortoises can't house an itty bitty (relative to Aldabra) Sulcata???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Ok, picking an yah. It just painted a very funny image in my head.
But actually, it's a good example of house destructive they can be.

My 50 lb house Sulcata is very gentle and other than a few dings in a shelf unit, he roams around, lounges under his PowerSun, and is a joy to live with. But he is just not an active, aggressive Sulcata. They are all individuals and all have their own personalities. My hatchling from Tom bulldozes his house to pieces...he potentially will be a yard wrecker! LOL

I can't agree more with the overpriced rescues. Charge $50, send with a care sheet, done. Next!!
Charge $400 and interrogate and force to sign overly demanding contracts? Have fun with that

 

[Tom]

I can't agree more with the overpriced rescues. Charge $50, send with a care sheet, done. Next!!
Charge $400 and interrogate and force to sign overly demanding contracts? Have fun with that

Yeah. Have fun with that and then get on the internet and tell everyone about the "sulcata overpopulation problem" and how your rescue is overflowing with sulcatas that you can't find homes for.

There is no shortage of homes for sulctas. There is, however, a shortage of people willing to pay money and jump through hoops when they can go get a free one with no hassles instead.

Again. I am not saying any rescue is "wrong" for their policies. I have no problem with them being careful about the animals that they have been given. I just want to shed some light on the subject for interested readers so people can hear both sides of the story and make up their own minds.

 

[tortoiselady]

I can't agree more with the overpriced rescues. Charge $50, send with a care sheet, done. Next!!
Charge $400 and interrogate and force to sign overly demanding contracts? Have fun with that

Yeah. Have fun with that and then get on the internet and tell everyone about the "sulcata overpopulation problem" and how your rescue is overflowing with sulcatas that you can't find homes for.

There is no shortage of homes for sulctas. There is, however, a shortage of people willing to pay money and jump through hoops when they can go get a free one with no hassles instead.

Again. I am not saying any rescue is "wrong" for their policies. I have no problem with them being careful about the animals that they have been given. I just want to shed some light on the subject for interested readers so people can hear both sides of the story and make up their own minds.

Thank you for the added disclosure as all rescues are not created equal. The rescue I work with has a zero adoption fee, period. We operate 100% on donations that are not required at all, or even suggested amounts. That is why I get the big bucks for often spending 40 hours a week at it - $0.00. Not even the gas I use to drive them. The home is the most important goal and to not have them turned back in. But like Yvonne noted - it is getting harder to find homes for the larger males. Yes, I too could sell babies no problem. We are up to turned in sulcatas in the 160 to 200 pounds now. The 50 to 80 pound males are the most common being turned in, in the "Valley" area of Southern California. Can't speak for other areas.

A thought on the population subject - there may be more geographical issues going on with sulcatas which may be blowing this population issue out of proportion. Certain areas my be experiencing a very high population while others seem to have very low population. Something to consider when hearing complaints of over population, and yet you don't see it where you are.

Please note - there is NO such thing as a free pet. All pets require $ at one time or another spent on them and that can be considered a hassle at times.

 

[Saleama]

Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree

turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend. Instead a lovely creature that once accommodated , can lower blood pressure and also do what I noted above. Educating people to look at it that way, would be great for our environment. Recent studies show/prove that a garden (native, drought tolerant, edible) is more cost efficient than a lawn and better for our environment and for birds and butterflies. These studies were shared by our Metro Water District. Woo hoo.

And once again, we simply must share with others in order to help and to educate ... which is why TFO is so wonderful. Ghandi said we are accountable for what we do and for what we do not do. Share.

Every tortoise should come with a little note that says, please join (or troll, like I did for a year LOL) TFO for the sake of your new pet.

And yeah, I agree about the HOA thing as some can be kinda Stepford Wife-ish. (eyes wide open).

So funny to see someone say they lower blood pressure! I am a 44 year old diabetic with high blood pressure and anxiety (caused by work stress, unimportant) and since aquiring and caring for my torts and turts, I am 100% free of the medications ( I was on 6 different ones). I garden, I shop exotic stores, I have started to learn how to build things, all in an effort to take care of my little guys and gals.
I think with proper education and making sure people know what they are getting into and what will be required, these animals can do as much for us as we for them. Dogs and Dolphins have been used for theropy for decades, why not tortoises? And about overbreeding? One thing I have noticed about anything is that you don't see the abundance of something until you actually become involved with it. For example, I never once "saw" a Hyundai Tiberon until I started driving one and then they were EVERYWHERE. I never saw a live Sulcata tortoise until July of this year, now I own five of them and know, on line, a bunch of people who have them. Still, I don't think the "overbreeding" issue is here yet. The ammount of rescue animals can't be used as a barometer unless you know the ammount of happy, healthy animals that are NOT in need of rescue.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

This is an interesting discuss....I mean the "overpopulation" of Sulcata.
We have a new TFO member in the Los Angeles area looking for a big Sulcata to rescue. She's unable to find one! Not sure if she checked shelters...I can advise her. She even looked into having one shipped from another state. Ugh.

Tom, can you give me any ideas on where she can look in that area? Animal shelters up here don't take turtles and tortoises, they call rescues like IRR. I'm the contact for my county. I have a group for turtles, as I only handle tortoises.

 

[erica anne]

Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree

turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend. Instead a lovely creature that once accommodated , can lower blood pressure and also do what I noted above. Educating people to look at it that way, would be great for our environment. Recent studies show/prove that a garden (native, drought tolerant, edible) is more cost efficient than a lawn and better for our environment and for birds and butterflies. These studies were shared by our Metro Water District. Woo hoo.

And once again, we simply must share with others in order to help and to educate ... which is why TFO is so wonderful. Ghandi said we are accountable for what we do and for what we do not do. Share.

Every tortoise should come with a little note that says, please join (or troll, like I did for a year LOL) TFO for the sake of your new pet.

And yeah, I agree about the HOA thing as some can be kinda Stepford Wife-ish. (eyes wide open).

So funny to see someone say they lower blood pressure! I am a 44 year old diabetic with high blood pressure and anxiety (caused by work stress, unimportant) and since aquiring and caring for my torts and turts, I am 100% free of the medications ( I was on 6 different ones). I garden, I shop exotic stores, I have started to learn how to build things, all in an effort to take care of my little guys and gals.
I think with proper education and making sure people know what they are getting into and what will be required, these animals can do as much for us as we for them. Dogs and Dolphins have been used for theropy for decades, why not tortoises? And about overbreeding? One thing I have noticed about anything is that you don't see the abundance of something until you actually become involved with it. For example, I never once "saw" a Hyundai Tiberon until I started driving one and then they were EVERYWHERE. I never saw a live Sulcata tortoise until July of this year, now I own five of them and know, on line, a bunch of people who have them. Still, I don't think the "overbreeding" issue is here yet. The ammount of rescue animals can't be used as a barometer unless you know the ammount of happy, healthy animals that are NOT in need of rescue.

They definitely reduce stress. They are the last animal I would have pegged for this. People automatically think of dogs as an animal that do this, not tortoises. We have a Gardner that looks for Franklin when he comes by. It is obvious how much he enjoys him, he says Franklin makes him feel relaxed. I agree

 

[Tom]

A thought on the population subject - there may be more geographical issues going on with sulcatas which may be blowing this population issue out of proportion. Certain areas my be experiencing a very high population while others seem to have very low population. Something to consider when hearing complaints of over population, and yet you don't see it where you are.

This brings up a very good point: Perspective. When I hear about a rescue that has a whole lot of them, I always run it through MY frame of reference. I live in a warm southern state. I know lots and lots of people that have big sulcatas, and love and care for them well. I know of more people in my "area of operation" that are looking to get one, than are looking to place one (although not a lot of either).

I wonder if sulcatas are more of a problem in the frozen areas of the country because people get them and then realize they are in over their heads, or are they more of a problem in Southern states because people get them thinking they will be easy to handle due to their climate, and then realize they are in over their heads. What are your thoughts on this?

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Still, I don't think the "overbreeding" issue is here yet. The ammount of rescue animals can't be used as a barometer unless you know the ammount of happy, healthy animals that are NOT in need of rescue.

This is a good point. You put into words a big part of the thoughts that run through my head when I hear about the "dire over-population problem" that so many people speak of.

I know of hundreds of sulcatas that have a happy home where they are loved and cared for. I hear of maybe 2 or 3 a year than need a new home, and those are snapped up pretty quick. Even the one's that are sold are snapped up quickly. The freebies go even quicker.

 

[wellington]

I don't think the colder states rescues, at least not the few I know, Michigan, Indiana and Illinois have an over abundance of Sullies. However, being in a cold state and the amount of room a large sully needs and the very little funds rescues have, I think them having only one or two Sullies is an over abundance to them. Then, if you read the CL listings for these same areas, there is almost always a 20-30 pound sully needing a home. They are on CL for months and months. When they are no longer listed, where did they go? Probably a rescue. I think it probably does have a lot to do with location and their definition of over abundance.

 

[JennBell0725]

Okay its final when I move ill build some enclosures for these ginormous unwanted guys. I'll call my farm "The China Shop" haha. I love my sweet Littlefoot. Then again I like pet cows bit hubby says no. So I just got a shelled cow

 

[Jacqui]

Okay its final when I move ill build some enclosures for these ginormous unwanted guys. I'll call my farm "The China Shop" haha. I love my sweet Littlefoot. Then again I like pet cows bit hubby says no. So I just got a shelled cow

Cute!

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

So funny to see someone say they lower blood pressure! I am a 44 year old diabetic with high blood pressure and anxiety (caused by work stress, unimportant) and since aquiring and caring for my torts and turts, I am 100% free of the medications ( I was on 6 different ones). I garden, I shop exotic stores, I have started to learn how to build things, all in an effort to take care of my little guys and gals.

This is so great. Loved reading this! : )

 

[emysbreeder]

We will all be running for our lives as they all go on the attack. Okay, I guess we don't really have to run. We will all be crawling for our lives as they all go on the attack. . Okay, sorry, seriously. I do always wonder where all those babies go. Are there really that many people that wants a giant tort that could uproot their home? What about those adds wanting to buy whole clutches of them? Who are they and who buys all those babies? My opinion, breed them if you can house them, if you can't sell them. I'm not into culling any animal. If I couldn't sell a puppy for whatever reason, it had a forever home with me.

They are the #1 "pet turtle/tort." in China. Chinese brokers are here in the US and will buy all we can make. (and they are not low-ballers,and pay on the spot. In fact there are a group of Chinese that is called an emerging market that have lots of money to spend. It is a very small number out of China's population of 1.3 B.,but it equals the total number of people in the USA. Their young,rich,and like Japan 30 yrs ago, all want what we have in America. Big cars, exodic pets,and to look like Elvis. A Chinese reptile broker has been here and are coming back tomorrow to buy more. I have not sold a tortoise to anyone in the USA sence the Daytona Expo last Aug. Yes life is strange, it like if I had to buy a box turtle from a Chinaman. The ad your talking about is from the Animal rights people who are backed by the US Gov. who does not want us to own animals, but in China everything is hunky dory. Stranger than fixtion after all, China is a Communist country. Who new?! I think I'll stamp the Asian Mt.Tortoises......Made in the USA. (in a swet shop in Florida) Vic Morgan

---

We will all be running for our lives as they all go on the attack. Okay, I guess we don't really have to run. We will all be crawling for our lives as they all go on the attack. . Okay, sorry, seriously. I do always wonder where all those babies go. Are there really that many people that wants a giant tort that could uproot their home? What about those adds wanting to buy whole clutches of them? Who are they and who buys all those babies? My opinion, breed them if you can house them, if you can't sell them. I'm not into culling any animal. If I couldn't sell a puppy for whatever reason, it had a forever home with me.

They are the #1 "pet turtle/tort." in China. Chinese brokers are here in the US and will buy all we can make. (and they are not low-ballers,and pay on the spot. In fact there are a group of Chinese that is called an emerging market that have lots of money to spend. It is a very small number out of China's population of 1.3 B.,but it equals the total number of people in the USA. Their young,rich,and like Japan 30 yrs ago, all want what we have in America. Big cars, exotic pets,and to look like Elvis. A Chinese reptile broker has been here and are coming back tomorrow to buy more. I have not sold a tortoise to anyone in the USA sence the Daytona Expo last Aug. Yes life is strange, it like if I had to buy a box turtle from a Chinaman. The ad your talking about is from the Animal rights people who are backed by the US Gov. who does not want us to own animals, but in China everything is hunky dory. Stranger than fixtion after all, China is a Communist country. Who new?! I think I'll stamp the Asian Mt.Tortoises......Made in the USA. (in a swet shop in Florida) Vic Morgan

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Vic, is this because tortoises are considered good luck in Chinese culture? Please tell me that is why they buy them and not to have a new food source in the future. Big place, that's a lot of tortoises. And no 4" law. Sucks to be US.

Also, even though they are trying to be like us - I read that there is even an "Orange County" there that looks just like our Irvine - the Communist just executed an entrepreneur Zeng Chengjie by firing squad in July. Zeng has been likened by the media to Bernie Madoff. The farmer's-son-turned-entrepreneur was found guilty this summer of defrauding investors in a massive Ponzi scheme similar to the now-disgraced American businessman. However, Zeng's real estate scheme cost him his life. Unlike Madoff, Zeng had a lot of supporters. "Nobody thought he was a crook, he was a decent person—not an unscrupulous businessman." Oy, that Communist party. He obviously fell out of favor. After this happened, a lot of Chinese money has been leaving the country. Weird world we live in.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I found Neal's post interesting. Never thought off this in that way. So the premise, when extrapolated out, is that all these sulcatas are being cared for by people who could be giving homes to DTs that have been illegally removed from the desert instead. If there weren't so many sulcata babies being produced, these people would instead line up to adopt all these DTs?

I don't think so. People want a sulcata because of what they are. Big, bold, beautiful, majestic... Don't get me wrong. DTs are great tortoises and I love the species. I could have as many as I want, but I have chosen other species for a variety of reasons.

Why are we only blaming sulcatas for lack of DT homes. What about all the Russians bought at Petco and Petsmart? How come those people didn't go out and adopt a DT instead? Basically ANY pet tortoise of ANY species could be taking up a potential DT home.

So should we stop ALL captive tortoise breeding until all the DTs have homes? Am I off base here? Does anyone else see it this way?

My thinking is that DTs should not be so difficult to adopt, particularly for folks out of state/country...there's a lot of good keepers all over the place that would gladly save these poor beasties from a life in a toxicly over-crowded "sanctuary", if the Government would simply allow it to happen!

 

[Livingstone]

All breeders and keepers should be required to have a permit/license, it should have to be renewed yearly and there should be a cap on species, especially large breeds. The licenses should be expensive enough to dissuade the masses, I was thinking roughly $500.00 with a renewal cost of $2.00 per animal per year. That's my opinion.

 

[Tom]

All breeders and keepers should be required to have a permit/license, it should have to be renewed yearly and there should be a cap on species, especially large breeds. The licenses should be expensive enough to dissuade the masses, I was thinking roughly $500.00 with a renewal cost of $2.00 per animal per year. That's my opinion.

Involving the government with permits, fees and bureaucracy is NEVER a good idea. This does not solve ANY problems and it creates a whole lot of new ones. I have to strongly disagree with you here. Spent any time at the DMV lately. Does all that bureaucracy and all those fees stop speeding, drunk driving and stupid drivers in general? Now you wanna suggest we have a DTP (Department of Tortoise Permits)? No thank you.

 

[mike taylor]

I agree with Tom! Thats not a good idea . Government controls to much as it is . Their definition of control is ..... well we have no funds and no homes for all of these animals ...... so lets just kill them! Have you been keeping up with the B.L.M lately? They just put a crap load of endangered gopher tortoises down!

 

[Livingstone]

To be perfectly honest the DMV doesn't play much of a role in any of the actions you mentioned. Speeding, drunk driving, and stupid drivers are a product of ignorance and stupidity, not the DMV. None of those people sped, drove drunk, or acted stupidly while taking their driving test, or I can guarantee you they would not have been licensed.

Honestly driving infractions are the worst example to use. Primarily because that system actually works very well. People get a license, people who break the law lose their license. The fines go toward roads, police, and other expenses of the state or county. In fact most of the revenue generated in localities is from traffic infractions. So those repaved roads, street lights, infrastructure, etc are all made possible by people who break the law. The funny thing is that if everybody drove in a legal and calm manner we'd be totally screwed because so much money is generated by those "idiots".

If we did the same thing with tortoise ownership then we would have plenty of money to help endangered species like gopher tortoises because we could afford to provide space for native breeding populations and we could also afford to fight illegal trafficking of tortoises too.

Furthermore people are greedy, and if they can sit on their lazy fat asses and let an animal breed in their backyard to make a profit then chances are they will. Ease of ownership of these animals is the primary reason for the problem, if there was an *** load of paperwork and bureaucracy making it difficult for every would-be sulcata owner to get their hands on one, we would be combating the problem. They would be less accessible and over time the number of breeders who slowly decrease.

YES, there would be fallout and animals would die. But look at all the juveniles that die (as evidenced by this forum) suffering at the hands of people who don't have a clue how to take care of them. You think that's better?

Look at how many people own a cute little sulcata... Half of them still live with their parents. What do you think is going to happen when that person enters the real world, has to work 40+ hours, or goes to college? Maybe you guys are just naive...

The reality is that by enacting legislature that decreases the ease of ownership, and punishes people monetarily for failing to meet the needs of an animal they chose to own, we can effectively keep animals out of the hands of the wrong people.

 

[leigti]

I am finding this thread very interesting. I don't know enough to understand the subject on the entire country basis but I have noticed some local trends. First of all, seen a cute little Sulcata baby in the pet store is what got me into tortoises to begin with. I was totally smitten. But I did my research and realized that I could not keep one for a long-term basis, definitely not when it got full-grown. I live in a northern climate and it would take a great deal of modification to My yard
to make it safe for the Tortoise. Long story short, I got a little Russian tortoise and I am very happy, I can provide an indoor and outdoor enclosure for him and provide for him very well. However the local pet store is still selling those cute little baby so Sulcatas hand over fist. They give the new owners all the wrong information and have been resistant to any suggestions or information on the proper care for these babies. I personally know of three people who have bought one and then had it die shortly after. There are also ads on craigslist locally with the tortoises that nobody wants anymore, their shells are very bumpy and they obviously have not been raised correctly. All this really makes me wonder what's going to happen when all these baby tortoises get to be 50, 75, hundred and 50 pounds. Even people with the best intentions can be overwhelmed when an animal that gifts that big and distractive starts to tear their house and yard apart. These are just my opinions.

 

[shanu303]

what if the rare species were bred instead of sulcatas but at the same scale as the sulcatas are bred....
and i've read that releasing these creatures in the wild would cause a problem ... but how would it cause a problem....
and if releasing is not an option then why not relocate these sulcatas in sanctuaries in their native land?? can this be a possible option??
living in india i can say is that there ain't a single tortoise species other than the indian star tortoise...
and on the matter of government getting involved,,,, they do make the rules but in my country the rules are hardly followed.... people are still fetching them from the wild for they believe "Tortoises are lucky according to Feng Shui and Vastu Shastra"
and you guys won't believe that one can get a nice Hatchling- Yearling star tortoise for as low as 33 US Dollars...