Syringe feeding a large Sulcata

[missfaith]

Hi everyone! I've search the forums for tips on syringe feeding, and everything i'm seeing is in regards to small tortoises. We are trying to help our 100 lb guy feel better and have some Critical Care mix to try to syringe feed him. Has anyone out there had experience doing this with a larger tortoise? I'm really the most concerned with how to get his mouth open! Any help/ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Yvonne G]

oh boy. . . that's a tough one. There's just no way anyone can hold a 100lbs sulcata's head out in order to syringe feed him. They're much stronger than we are. Will he eat anything? If you can hand feed him, you can spread the Critical Care over a leaf of romaine, then roll it up and feed him like a cigar.

You can open their mouth using the edge of a credit card, however, in order to do that you have to first be holding his head out, behind the jaws, and a big tortoise is just too darned strong to do that.

What's wrong with the tortoise?

Is there anything that he'll eat? watermelon, etc. eveniceburg lettuce?

 

[missfaith]

oh boy. . . that's a tough one. There's just no way anyone can hold a 100lbs sulcata's head out in order to syringe feed him. They're much stronger than we are. Will he eat anything? If you can hand feed him, you can spread the Critical Care over a leaf of romaine, then roll it up and feed him like a cigar.

You can open their mouth using the edge of a credit card, however, in order to do that you have to first be holding his head out, behind the jaws, and a big tortoise is just too darned strong to do that.

What's wrong with the tortoise?

Is there anything that he'll eat? watermelon, etc. eveniceburg lettuce?

He's not eating anything right now....actually for about a month. Very little pooping/ He has gone for extended periods of time before without eating or excreting, but he's always been very active. Not so much this time. Very lethargic. We were at the vet with him today, he got x-rays and a vitamin injection. Xrays showed nothing but lots of poop, so we need to get him moving (in more ways than one!). We've tried all his favorites to get him to eat something, with no luck. He is getting nice long soaks daily. We were happy to see there were no kidney stones, or weird foreign object inside him.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

We were happy to see there were no kidney stones, or weird foreign object inside him.

Sorry for what may seem a “duh” question here, but his temps are all good and proper, correct?

 

[missfaith]

Sorry for what may seem a “duh” question here, but his temps are all good and proper, correct?

His own and his environment yes. We are having a very tortoise friendly summer here in Ohio! His bloodwork came back with a SLIGHT elevation in white blood cells, but everything else looked totally normal. He was sedated for the blood draw so the vet was able to get a good look inside both ends. All clear!

 

[Tom]

Where does the tortoise seep and what is the temperature there?

I would not even attempt to tube feed them. First and foremost, if they are not eating, there is a reason. Find and correct that reason and they will eat. Forcing food into a tortoise that isn't eating is not the way to go. And vitamin injections usually do more harm than good. This is an indicator that your vet does not know tortoise care.

If you have a diagnosis and the problem is taking a while to remedy itself, then having a feeding tube put in is the way to go. Trying to grab a large sulcata's head and force its mouth open is a good way for both of you to get hurt. There is no "good" way to do it and it really shouldn't be done.

Do you have a large tub that you can soak this guy in? That is what he needs. Long daily soaks for a while.

What does he normally eat? There might be a clue in there for us too.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Ditto on everything Tom provided. Has he been getting good soaks this Summer? I’m guessing dehydrated/compacted/not enough moisture contents (not enough roughage). Do you regularly feed opuntia cactus or aloe vera?

Might be time to get him into a large tub, warm water and soak soak soak. Let him scramble about, etc.

He’s not eating for a reason...

Best of luck.

 

[missfaith]

His own and his environment yes. We are having a very tortoise friendly summer here in Ohio!

Where does the tortoise seep and what is the temperature there?

I would not even attempt to tube feed them. First and foremost, if they are not eating, there is a reason. Find and correct that reason and they will eat. Forcing food into a tortoise that isn't eating is not the way to go. And vitamin injections usually do more harm than good. This is an indicator that your vet does not know tortoise care.

If you have a diagnosis and the problem is taking a while to remedy itself, then having a feeding tube put in is the way to go. Trying to grab a large sulcata's head and force its mouth open is a good way for both of you to get hurt. There is no "good" way to do it and it really shouldn't be done.

Do you have a large tub that you can soak this guy in? That is what he needs. Long daily soaks for a while.

What does he normally eat? There might be a clue in there for us too.

Where does the tortoise seep and what is the temperature there?

I would not even attempt to tube feed them. First and foremost, if they are not eating, there is a reason. Find and correct that reason and they will eat. Forcing food into a tortoise that isn't eating is not the way to go. And vitamin injections usually do more harm than good. This is an indicator that your vet does not know tortoise care.

If you have a diagnosis and the problem is taking a while to remedy itself, then having a feeding tube put in is the way to go. Trying to grab a large sulcata's head and force its mouth open is a good way for both of you to get hurt. There is no "good" way to do it and it really shouldn't be done.

Do you have a large tub that you can soak this guy in? That is what he needs. Long daily soaks for a while.

What does he normally eat? There might be a clue in there for us too.

The suggestion for vitamin injections came from 3 separate Vets. Two at the practice we were at today and one at a totally different practice. That has been done, so we will have to wait and see about that.
He is soaked frequently, he actually loves it. Since he has not been feeling well he is getting soaked every day. At least an hour, most of the time more than that.
His diet is typically: Timothy (he LOVES it). A rotation of greens (collards, turnip, dandelion, kale). We have been advised to stop feeding him kale. He also frequently gets sweet potatoes. Very infrequently, watermelon, strawberries.

Diagnosis as of today is still dehydration and after seeing his xrays, constipation.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Has anyone out there had experience doing this with a larger tortoise? I'm really the most concerned with how to get his mouth open!

~ I have seen a great video on this exact thing, I will search for it and post it.....

 

[missfaith]

I forgot to answer the question of where he sleeps. He has a dog house like structure with a ramp that we pull up at night to enclose him. If the temps dip below 60 he's got a heater in there at night.

 

[mark1]

The suggestion for vitamin injections came from 3 separate Vets. Two at the practice we were at today and one at a totally different practice.

nothing wrong with vitamin injections , exotics that haven't eaten for long periods most likely have deficiencies , actually with some of the captive diets fed , animals that are eating often are suffering from deficiencies ……what vitamins did they give ? some vitamin deficiencies can be more fatal than an overdose . thiamine being one which will cause a loss of appetite , which in turn will cascade to death …i've seen b complex shots work wonders on non-eating animals I had about given up on ….an overdose of anything including simple saline is dangerous ……… I do know a lot of veterinarians in your area , could I ask the name of the vets you have seen ? is your guy drinking ? never had anything near that size , but on a small scale I've seen fluid therapy really perk up a sick dehydrated animal , get them through a rough period …… fluid therapy like everything else can be dangerous if done inappropriately ……. when did he stop eating ? was he raised in Cleveland ? there is great information on this website , telling folks their vets don't know what they're doing without knowing the vet and seeing the animal is not what I find to be exactly great information ………

 

[missfaith]

nothing wrong with vitamin injections , exotics that haven't eaten for long periods most likely have deficiencies , actually with some of the captive diets fed , animals that are eating often are suffering from deficiencies ……what vitamins did they give ? some vitamin deficiencies can be more fatal than an overdose . thiamine being one which will cause a loss of appetite , which in turn will cascade to death …i've seen b complex shots work wonders on non-eating animals I had about given up on ….an overdose of anything including simple saline is dangerous ……… I do know a lot of veterinarians in your area , could I ask the name of the vets you have seen ? is your guy drinking ? never had anything near that size , but on a small scale I've seen fluid therapy really perk up a sick dehydrated animal , get them through a rough period …… fluid therapy like everything else can be dangerous if done inappropriately ……. when did he stop eating ? was he raised in Cleveland ? there is great information on this website , telling folks their vets don't know what they're doing without knowing the vet and seeing the animal is not what I find to be exactly great information ………

We saw Drs Bystrom and Krupka at Avon Lake and consulted with Dr Riggs in the Akron area. He was given a B complex shot. He had a nice soak tonight and it looks like he may have taken a bite of strawberry. We will continue with the soaks and offering him food. Your feedback is appreciated.

 

[mark1]

sounds right to me ……… I don't keep tortoises , if it were one of my turtles , i'd not let his temp get below 80 at anytime , the closer to optimum body temp , everything works better , and keep his humidity up a bit , perhaps someone here that keeps sulcatas will weigh in on that advice , hope he feels better soon , is he drinking ? dr krupka is a for real reptile vet ……………. don't know the other two ……….

 

[Tom]

nothing wrong with vitamin injections , exotics that haven't eaten for long periods most likely have deficiencies , actually with some of the captive diets fed , animals that are eating often are suffering from deficiencies ……what vitamins did they give ? some vitamin deficiencies can be more fatal than an overdose . thiamine being one which will cause a loss of appetite , which in turn will cascade to death …i've seen b complex shots work wonders on non-eating animals I had about given up on ….an overdose of anything including simple saline is dangerous ……… I do know a lot of veterinarians in your area , could I ask the name of the vets you have seen ? is your guy drinking ? never had anything near that size , but on a small scale I've seen fluid therapy really perk up a sick dehydrated animal , get them through a rough period …… fluid therapy like everything else can be dangerous if done inappropriately ……. when did he stop eating ? was he raised in Cleveland ? there is great information on this website , telling folks their vets don't know what they're doing without knowing the vet and seeing the animal is not what I find to be exactly great information ………

Nothing wrong with vitamin injections? I couldn't disagree more. This is the hallmark of the vet who knows nothing about tortoises, retreats to the back room to look in a vet handbook or vet website, and then re-enters the exam room proclaiming: "He needs a vitamin injection. Thank you. That will be $35.99." And coincidentally a lot of turtles and tortoises die soon after. Could be coincidence and they were going to die anyway, but its not a coincidence when the skin sloughs off at the injection site.

I stand by my statement. Any tortoise vet that suggests a "vitamin injection" when they can't find anything wrong is not a good tortoise vet. This is exactly the kind of great information a person needs to discern whether the DVM standing in front of them asking for money deserves it, or not.

 

[Tom]

I forgot to answer the question of where he sleeps. He has a dog house like structure with a ramp that we pull up at night to enclose him. If the temps dip below 60 he's got a heater in there at night.

This is much too cold for the is tropical species. They sleep in 80 degree burrows in the wild. It is likely that these cold night temps are the cause, or at least a contributing factor to your problem.

Try bumping the night temps up to 80-85, and see if he improves.

What size is his enclosure? Where does he spend winters and what size is that enclosure?

 

[mark1]

why would you take your tortoise to a vet that knows nothing about tortoises ???? not that any vet shouldn't know vitamin a can be toxic ……. I believe vitamin A toxicity has been known in the medical community for more than 100 yrs , I actually think it may be closer to 500yrs , I've seen veterinary publication that were 50-60 yrs old with articles on the subject …….. if you can find a vet that doesn't know this , they must have cheated their way through school ? to find a vet that would #1 treat a completely different class of animal with which they are unfamiliar and #2 to be unaware vitamin A can be toxic , i'm not a vet , have 0 medical training , and I just assume any fat soluble vitamin can be toxic ???? if you can find a vet that meets those two criteria , I personally would not take any animal of any kind to them ……. as for informing folks some of these vitamins can be toxic , i'd say good information , as far as telling folks if your vet gives their animal a vitamin injection , or uses baytril , they probably don't know what they're doing , we'll agree to disagree on that generalization …….. as far as guessing what's wrong with your animal , i'd bet I have at least 10x your experience with veterinarians , and I can tell you the best are guessing most of the time , the good ones are just better guessers ………...

 

[Yvonne G]

Mark:

I don't know for sure as I'm only guessing, but I think an inexperienced vet fails to take the weight of the shell into consideration and gives the animal too high a dose. Here at the rescue I've seen quite a few turtles and tortoises with skin sloughing off and with a little detective work, learn than the animal had been given a vitamin a, d, e injection.

 

[mark1]

Mark:

I don't know for sure as I'm only guessing, but I think an inexperienced vet fails to take the weight of the shell into consideration and gives the animal too high a dose. Here at the rescue I've seen quite a few turtles and tortoises with skin sloughing off and with a little detective work, learn than the animal had been given a vitamin a, d, e injection.

the vets don't need to take into account the shell , they have closed drug formularies with dosages specific to species available to them ……… the sloughing skin could possibly be from an overdose of vitamin A , could just be an allergic reaction to the A , D , or E , skin is a pretty common place for an allergic reaction , it is the largest organ in the body , Vit A is fat soluble as is D, allergic reactions to all of these are known , and skin contains a lot of fat ……….. here is an paper from iowa state 1994 pertaining to box turtles and vit A ,
"It must be stressed that too much vitamin A can also create severe problems. Hypervitaminosis A can cause dry, flaky skin to severe skin lesions. Frye incriminates injectable vitamins as a source of skin loss."
https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/view...1&article=3518&context=iowastate_veterinarian
I think informing people of the dangers of something as seemingly innocuous as a vitamin is good information , you can kill an animal with dietary vit A …….. if you go to a vet and any this information is new to them , especially one claiming to be a herp vet , that vet should have his license revoked ………. as far as vitamin injections , the vet examined the animal , he knows the animals history , he knows the owners knowledge of the animal , vitamin injections can be useful , and life saving , turtles and tortoises can barely eat , and then not eat for up to a year that I know of , how would you not think an animal is not deficient in everything at that point ….. oh , and not all vitamin injections are vit a………

this is a reaction to penicillin

 

[Sshrum11]

Hi everyone! I've search the forums for tips on syringe feeding, and everything i'm seeing is in regards to small tortoises. We are trying to help our 100 lb guy feel better and have some Critical Care mix to try to syringe feed him. Has anyone out there had experience doing this with a larger tortoise? I'm really the most concerned with how to get his mouth open! Any help/ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

I am the crazy lady who rescued the injured sulcata. I can still only get her to eat if I squeeze a bit of watermelon juice on her greens and then leave a small speck of the watermelon on top or a small piece of fresh tomato. She won't touch store bought. She then perks up and eats quite a bit. Otherwise she just stares at the food and at me. I am by no means an authority but it does get her to eat her greens.

 

[Markw84]

I forgot to answer the question of where he sleeps. He has a dog house like structure with a ramp that we pull up at night to enclose him. If the temps dip below 60 he's got a heater in there at night.

How does your sulcata heat his body temp every day? Although you are having "tortoise weather" right now, Cleveland's average temps are way too low for a sulcata. Just this weekend your forcast calls for a high of 68° with no sun and some rain. The average daily high in the heat of the summer there is 77°. IF you get an extended period of no sun and cloud cover, a sulcata is definitely in danger. They need to heat their body temp to the mid 80's° most every day to properly metabolize and to give the body heat to move actively about for extended periods. Without that, they are in constant danger of getting impacted as their gut motility is not enough. This commonly leads to constipation/impaction and/or enteritis. Sulcatas are amazingly tolerant of poor conditions and can survive years in sub-optimal conditions. However, living on the edge, a weakened system, an extended cloudy period, etc, etc, is all it takes to start the process of failure.

A sulcata needs to heat it's core body temperature to 85° every day. It needs activity. They should be marching around its enclosure at least 1 our per day quite relentlessly. They are very active tortoises. If that is not happening, your tortoise is not thriving. Your tortoise sounds like a classic case of a tortoise kept over a prolonged period with sub optimal temps.