System Immunity in Tortoises - would love a discussion

[Mantissa3]

Hello to all of you breeders, long-time keepers/moderators, tort rescuers with extensive experience in getting tortoises treated, and all of the top-flight medical professionals on this forum who would like to ring in both with opinions and medical information.

I have been reading extensively since the death of my beloved, bonded to me baby redfoot of 3 years old, that I raised from a rescued hatchling.

I recently read a very brief comment by a long-term keeper that "tortoises don't have great immune systems even on their healthiest of days in captivity." I have not been able to find that thread again, and I have no idea what he meant by that, but he does have extensive experience so I wanted to come to my personal favorite source for these types of discussions to see:

1) Do you agree, and if so why do captive torts not have very good immune systems, and

2) What can I do on a regular basis to keep my two remaining rescued redfoot babies' immune systems as robust as possible?

Since my first baby died, I've been using Benebac for Reptiles 3x per week, being sure I spot check temps and humidity every day religiously, giving them a variety of living conditions to choose from in their tables, and making sure their diets and exercise are consistent and appropriate according to the common threads I find in care sheets from here and a variety of herp medicine people I've been talking to.

Thanks for ringing in- of course all voices are always welcome!

With gratitude for this amazing community,
Karen

 

[ZEROPILOT]

In the wild, tortoises don't often have to deal with other tortoises and their issues, illnesses and poop everywhere.
captivity of even a single tortoise is not as ideal probably unless you can provide a lot of space.
It would be like you roaming the whole neighborhood or being confined to a single room that is also your bathroom and maybe you are not alone in there.
A lot gets said about humidity and temperature, etc. But there is also an issue with cleanliness and contamination.

 

[Tom]

I don't know who said that or why, but I have not observed any such thing.

Here are the three main downfalls for tortoises that I see.
1. Keeper error. When people don't provide an animal, any animal, with what it needs in captivity, they can't survive for long. In the case of reptiles, this is often temperatures. Sometimes diet. Sometimes introduced pathogens from another novel and foreign species. Often with tortoises, though not usually RFs, its dehydration. A large percentage of people still think the desert tortoises and sulcatas get all the water they need from the food they eat. Another problem is that a lot of people are still feeding primarily grocery store greens and lettuces. People are still using coil type cfl UV bulbs. People are still housing tortoise in little itty bitty tanks. People are still leaving lights on 24/7 or using red bulbs. People keep temperate species too warm at night, or tropical species too cold at night… The list of keeper errors is a long one and frequently one or more of these things leads to the eventual demise of the tortoise. It is my goal, and the goal of many here, to share with people what works, and minimize these casualties.
2. Tortoises have all evolved in their own areas of the world and are quite suited to dealing with any predators, parasites or pathogens that naturally occur in their area of origin. Move them to a different part of the world and introduce pathogens from other parts of the world and you have a recipe for disaster. I suspect foreign disease is a bigger killer than many people think. Necropsy is expensive and most people don't take the time to discover the COD of their beloved recently departed shelled friend. Do you know what killed your baby? Whenever I have an unexplained death, I want to know why. The necropsy results are both surprising and enlightening and have made me a better keeper.
3. Veterinarian error. Sorry to say it, but most vets do not know squat about raising, caring for, or treating tortoises. There are some VERY good ones out there, and they have my sincere respect and admiration, but I have unfortunately seen first hand many bad ones. They literally greet their tortoise owning client in the exam room, have some conversation, then excuse themselves to the back where they pick up a vet handbook, or nowadays they jump on the internet, and walk back into the room and proclaim like a seasoned expert that the tortoise needs a "vitamin injection". Frequently these injections kill or maim the tortoise. Often they prescribe old or outdated drugs or methods because that's what is in their old outdated book in the back. Another big gripe of mine is that many vets jump all over treating the symptoms, with little or no effort to address and correct the cause of the symptoms. I know a few really good tortoise vets, and they get my business, respect and a whole hearted recommendation to anyone who will listen, but the bad ones out there cause a lot of tortoise and other reptile deaths.

Does this offer any insight into your case Mantissa? Any idea what the issue was with your tortoise?

 

[ascott]

Hello to all of you breeders, long-time keepers/moderators, tort rescuers with extensive experience in getting tortoises treated, and all of the top-flight medical professionals on this forum who would like to ring in both with opinions and medical information.

I have been reading extensively since the death of my beloved, bonded to me baby redfoot of 3 years old, that I raised from a rescued hatchling.

I recently read a very brief comment by a long-term keeper that "tortoises don't have great immune systems even on their healthiest of days in captivity." I have not been able to find that thread again, and I have no idea what he meant by that, but he does have extensive experience so I wanted to come to my personal favorite source for these types of discussions to see:

1) Do you agree, and if so why do captive torts not have very good immune systems, and

2) What can I do on a regular basis to keep my two remaining rescued redfoot babies' immune systems as robust as possible?

Since my first baby died, I've been using Benebac for Reptiles 3x per week, being sure I spot check temps and humidity every day religiously, giving them a variety of living conditions to choose from in their tables, and making sure their diets and exercise are consistent and appropriate according to the common threads I find in care sheets from here and a variety of herp medicine people I've been talking to.

Thanks for ringing in- of course all voices are always welcome!

With gratitude for this amazing community,
Karen

Without knowing what context that quote was made in, there is no real way to accurately share...I mean, that quote taken out of context will absolutely start a discussion of its own but bear any value to the originators probable meaning...

 

[Mantissa3]

Thank you Tom. I absolutely have zero idea why my tortoise died because I had an X-ray done, he was empty except for a small round-ish white object, that was less dense than a rock, I got just a bit of soft fruit and fluids in him by mouth. When he passed the hard object, I took the fecal sample with the object to the vet in a Baggie immediately. They promptly lost the only fecal sample he ended up passing before his death a few days later, with five drugs prescribed in between, and no way to diagnose whether he had parasites, renal failure, etc, with his fecal sample gone. I was able to force feed just a bit with oxbow critical care, carrot soaks, and a bit of chopped dukes for the swelling I saw in his mouth. I couldn't even trust the vet with a fecal float and microscope exam so I wasn't about to give them his body for a necropsy...

 

[Mantissa3]

I meant cukes which o understand can reduce soreness and swelling of soft tissue in their mouths

 

[Mantissa3]

Hi Ascott: the context was general tortoise health as winter approaches in th UK and some EU member states. It was part of a discussion about building up their systems for preventative care, rather than trying to diagnose and treat after the fact.

 

[Mantissa3]

I don't know who said that or why, but I have not observed any such thing.

Here are the three main downfalls for tortoises that I see.
1. Keeper error. When people don't provide an animal, any animal, with what it needs in captivity, they can't survive for long. In the case of reptiles, this is often temperatures. Sometimes diet. Sometimes introduced pathogens from another novel and foreign species. Often with tortoises, though not usually RFs, its dehydration. A large percentage of people still think the desert tortoises and sulcatas get all the water they need from the food they eat. Another problem is that a lot of people are still feeding primarily grocery store greens and lettuces. People are still using coil type cfl UV bulbs. People are still housing tortoise in little itty bitty tanks. People are still leaving lights on 24/7 or using red bulbs. People keep temperate species too warm at night, or tropical species too cold at night… The list of keeper errors is a long one and frequently one or more of these things leads to the eventual demise of the tortoise. It is my goal, and the goal of many here, to share with people what works, and minimize these casualties.
2. Tortoises have all evolved in their own areas of the world and are quite suited to dealing with any predators, parasites or pathogens that naturally occur in their area of origin. Move them to a different part of the world and introduce pathogens from other parts of the world and you have a recipe for disaster. I suspect foreign disease is a bigger killer than many people think. Necropsy is expensive and most people don't take the time to discover the COD of their beloved recently departed shelled friend. Do you know what killed your baby? Whenever I have an unexplained death, I want to know why. The necropsy results are both surprising and enlightening and have made me a better keeper.
3. Veterinarian error. Sorry to say it, but most vets do not know squat about raising, caring for, or treating tortoises. There are some VERY good ones out there, and they have my sincere respect and admiration, but I have unfortunately seen first hand many bad ones. They literally greet their tortoise owning client in the exam room, have some conversation, then excuse themselves to the back where they pick up a vet handbook, or nowadays they jump on the internet, and walk back into the room and proclaim like a seasoned expert that the tortoise needs a "vitamin injection". Frequently these injections kill or maim the tortoise. Often they prescribe old or outdated drugs or methods because that's what is in their old outdated book in the back. Another big gripe of mine is that many vets jump all over treating the symptoms, with little or no effort to address and correct the cause of the symptoms. I know a few really good tortoise vets, and they get my business, respect and a whole hearted recommendation to anyone who will listen, but the bad ones out there cause a lot of tortoise and other reptile deaths.

Does this offer any insight into your case Mantissa? Any idea what the issue was with your tortoise?

Replying because this question, "any idea what the issue was with your tortoise?" has been a part of my nightmares, and a constantly recurring theme every single day since May. Of course I torture myself with the question, "What could I have done differently to prevent Gibson's death???" so Tom's question to me here is spot-on. As far as husbandry, I could've bumped temperatures a bit higher, I think - my top temps were hovering around 90F and the lowest was around 78-80F, so I think I could've provided a 95F basking spot to see if Gibby would've hovered in the hottest spot when he was sick. I also discovered that he was ailing a bit too late.

I go over this part endlessly and have talked to several redfoot specialists about it. How should I have discovered that he was ill earlier, so I had more time than 2 weeks to react, find the right specialist, etc. Gib was almost 3 pounds when he died. He was almost 3 years old. His 'tank' was getting bigger and he would sometimes skip meals (for the past 8 months or so) in contrast to eating voraciously and grazing constantly when he was a hatchling. When he didn't eat for 2-3 days, he would then hungrily eat a big meal then go for another day or two just drinking, no eating.

Now I wonder if I should've forced smaller meals each day, so that I could monitor his nutrient intake daily, and would've noticed if he was off his food more readily.

I'll tell you what is very confusing, though. When alleged herp vets say stuff about what they do in the wild... They say that they binge-eat in the wild, so offer food every day but don't be alarmed if they don't eat every day- that their natural instincts will guide them to eat and drink when they need to. They neglect the fact that they do not have access to water dishes that lend themselves to ease of drinking like puddles in the forest, or fresh foods that they smell as attractive- not grocery store greens that smell of being packaged in plastic.

Also, my baby got into a very stinky dead corpse 3 weeks before he passed away. I think a hawk or feral neighborhood cat dropped off part of a dead squirrel or rat in our backyard, and by the time I realized Gib was in the same spot far too long (compared to his normal wandering pattern in his tort-planted garden) he'd devoured some of the dead stinking corpse of that rodent.

When I told the "exotics vet" I was worried about it, of course the pat response was, "They eat carrion in the wild so don't worry about it."

I think I should've worried about it to the point of pushing for bloodwork. In the wild they have sources of astringents (various South American tree barks that provide oils they can rub against when they are cut, or chew when they are hurting inside..) and they have natural plants and roots they are exposed to, and they grown up with gut flora they are never allowed to develop in captivity that may help them digest carrion.

I think his grocery-store-gut-flora system was overwhelmed by the bacterial and possible poison (if it was a rat) in the dead rodent. I think the vet didn't take the time to do diagnostics.

But most of all, what happened was that I did not advocate loud enough or vehemently enough while he spent two weeks getting sicker, and finally giving up and dying right next to me on his favorite spot with his heating pad on. I didn't fight for the diagnosis. I didn't know enough to help him, and I let him down, and he paid for my ignorance with his life.

Now I still don't know for sure what the diagnosis was, and I have two more redfoot rescues who are not in the best shape, and still no clue how to help them if something like this happens again. I will catch it earlier this time because I measure all of their temperatures twice per day, and I watch them like hawks in a measurable way to be sure they are eating at least once per day. I also am giving them probiotics, which I never knew existed for reptiles (the old "herp vet" I went to initially told me there are no known probiotics for reptiles and I didn't do any more research until after Gib died...)

One of the things I love about TFO is the help I receive and the vast knowledge I find in these posts- also the challenging questions so that I can learn from this fatal mistake I made, and grow as a companion and keeper.

 

[Tom]

The COD of the carrion is what I would lo at here. Many animal that dies near human habitation die from poisoning or from lead bullets. Either could have been an issue with an animal that ate the corpse.

 

[Pearly]

I am so sorry for your loss. I'm new to tort-medicine but very comfortable around humans and we share many common characteristics and problems across species. I'd tend to go with your gut feeling on that dead animal. The vet could have assumed that your were worried about infectious stuff related to ingesting decomposing animal tissue, but infections are more likely to work much faster. I also second Tom's hypothesis on possibility of heavy metal poisoning, those can be lingering over time before they finally claim their victim. Or some parasitic issue?... As for your initial thought of building up immune system, I personally am all for it! For animals and humans alike. The truth is that humans and animals do get old, sick and die. Some animals and humans come to this world already compromised and weaker and never live to reach the average lifespan of their species. It's been this way from the beginning of times. It is possible that your Gibby was not the strongest to begin with and that dead rodent was a catalyst of the cascade of catastrophic events. I know how hard it is not to blame yourself for missing something, not reacting fast enough, not preventing his demise, but, truly, how could you have possibly known? Please, try to give yourself a break. I hope that you find solace in reminiscing on the good times and all the joy Gibby had brought into your life.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

After dealing with a Redfoot that was more or less at deaths door for about a year and even appeared to die at one point, I can sympathize with you.
You did everything that you knew to do. Took every precaution and showed great responsibility. Usually, that is enough.
Good varied diet. No stressful situations. Correct heat and humidity, cleanliness and observation.

 

[Mantissa3]

I am so sorry for your loss. I'm new to tort-medicine but very comfortable around humans and we share many common characteristics and problems across species. I'd tend to go with your gut feeling on that dead animal. The vet could have assumed that your were worried about infectious stuff related to ingesting decomposing animal tissue, but infections are more likely to work much faster. I also second Tom's hypothesis on possibility of heavy metal poisoning, those can be lingering over time before they finally claim their victim. Or some parasitic issue?... As for your initial thought of building up immune system, I personally am all for it! For animals and humans alike. The truth is that humans and animals do get old, sick and die. Some animals and humans come to this world already compromised and weaker and never live to reach the average lifespan of their species. It's been this way from the beginning of times. It is possible that your Gibby was not the strongest to begin with and that dead rodent was a catalyst of the cascade of catastrophic events. I know how hard it is not to blame yourself for missing something, not reacting fast enough, not preventing his demise, but, truly, how could you have possibly known? Please, try to give yourself a break. I hope that you find solace in reminiscing on the good times and all the joy Gibby had brought into your life.

Thank you so much, Pearly. Your post made me cry, and thank you for your sympathy and your generous, wise words. One of the best breeders here told me about the hot, dry, dehydrated conditions Gibby came from just out of his egg, and the types of damage to his organs that type of environment can do. Another local vet that I've talked to since he died told me, "They can live on the edge for a really long time if you take great care of them, but all it takes is one systemic upset or infection to tip them over and cause organ failure." My tribute to my perfect wonderful joyful little Gibby is to stay dedicated to redfoot education for my other two rescues, and they came out of worse conditions than he even did. Thank you for responding- I'll be seeking better husbandry knowledge and techniques the rest of my life with these amazing animals, so if anything else occurs to you please post

 

[Mantissa3]

The COD of the carrion is what I would lo at here. Many animal that dies near human habitation die from poisoning or from lead bullets. Either could have been an issue with an animal that ate the corpse.

thank you, Tom! That's what I think too because, literally, nothing else in Gibson's habitat or care routine changed for his 3 years with us. Nothing. (OK, we kept increasing the size of his indoor enclosure as he grew, but the last size increase had been nearly a year previous to his death where we stepped it up 4x.) He was eating fine, drinking, bathing with "joy" and interacting with us as he had his entire life- no changes at all in his habits or behaviour. Then he got into the dead animal for a few minutes before we saw and could pull it away from him. Now we police the entire tort garden every single day!

 

[Mantissa3]

After dealing with a Redfoot that was more or less at deaths door for about a year and even appeared to die at one point, I can sympathize with you.
You did everything that you knew to do. Took every precaution and showed great responsibility. Usually, that is enough.
Good varied diet. No stressful situations. Correct heat and humidity, cleanliness and observation.

@ZEROPILOT Your post means the world to me, thank you so much for this. I have been reading your posts since your redfoot got sick, and I read when you thought she had died. So many times I have wanted to reach out and ask how your tort is, but knowing my own pain from losing Gib, I didn't want to open wounds if she had passed after your long journey with her. Are you ok giving me the rest of the story? Did she fully recover? I've wanted the details for a long time because I have two more rf's but was afraid to ask you in case it is a sensitive topic for you. Thanks for being willing to include all of us during your heroic struggle to keep your animal alive! (What was the diagnosis, and what was the end result of the struggles and treatments, if you don't mind?)

 

[Pearly]

Dear Mantissa, I too have signed on for the RF-keeping. Got RF hatchling presumably -girl, and Brazilian Cherryhead (presumably!) boy. My wonderful daughter has been dreaming of a pet(s) of her own to love, and after fruitless months of searching around our local rescues I finally got those babies for her. She is a great tort mom, but school and afterschool activities keep those kids nowadays so busy, I'm naturally helping her care for those two cuties. I knew nothing about reptile husbandry going into this, but will have to say that all the reasearch and connecting with others who are passionate keepers has been nothing but joyous experience for me. I have had few pets over the years and I want to tell you something, when it comes to weak or ailing animal, agressive treatment is often brutal for the pet and tormentous for us mentally, time conduming, not to mention the cost! Omg! Vet care is VERY EXPENSIVE! And I would never deny treatment to an animal who suffers, just wish there were more vets who would have either more integrity to tell me about the futility of the treatment, or maybe more vets competent in their work. I agree with Tom's statement about this problem in vet medicine. We have to remember that 50% of ALL vets were in the bottom half of their class in vet med school... In human medicine intense scrutiny keeps even the lowest end mediocre doctor on his/her toes if they want to keep peer review or medical malpractice away. In vet medicine there are many, many fantastic and completely dedicated people who do it for the love of animals, but there is also complacency... People tend to become laxed because they are tired, frustrated, overworked, overwhelmed with bills pilling up, etc... and it's often easy to take the "paved road"-easy way out, or make wrong assumptions etc. I had gone through illness/treatment and ultimately losing 3 most wonderful animals, and 3 people in my family. Loss is very, very hard to deal with, and must be grieved, in our own way. But going through those difficult times had taught me few good lessons, too. One of them opened my eyes to the concept of dying as being... natural, inevitable part of the Universe. Birth and death, both uniquely profound and both completely natural. I am still working on coming to grips with my own reaction to losing someone, person or pet, but more and more, do I find myself open to the idea of being ok, more accepting of illness and death around. Today, I'm not sure if I'd put my elderly, overweight dog through 750$ surgery only to have her die anyway 3 days later. I'm not sure if I'd put any of my older cats through multiple needle sticks for bloodwork and daily insulin shots should they develop diabetes. This is a major attitude shift and I make sure every new staff member in my vet's (of 19 years!) office is very aware of it. They are always reminded that my goal is to keep my animals happy and comfortable. The only time I allow any aggressive work is in catastrophnic injury situation to alleviate pain and suffering. If the treatment of illness/injury is means putting animals through testing/probing/cutting/needles... To me that means loss of quality of life for them and I'll just never do it. Ever again. My cats freak out even when going for their annual! I never get their teeth cleaned etc anymore! And I don't give rat's a... the the doc tells me they'll get gingivitis. He even stopped bringing that up anymore. Just gave up. If the cat is 17 yrs old... so what if she has some build up on her teeth?! If they get a sore somewhere that I don't know how to help them, yes, we go, get prescription or even antibiotic shot to help them, or they get RI, yes, he'll listen to them and give medicine, but little more else... Ofcourse mammals are much easier to read for me and I've kept them for many, many years, things will be different with reptiles. But my thinking is: my job is to provide best, most optimal environment for our baby torts, give them best, most optimal diet, allow for the optimal level of activity, in ither words, things are to mimic their natural enviriment as much as possible and if we do all that and they still fail to thrive... Then maybe it wasn't meant to be. Mantissa, I'm saying all this hoping that it my experience may help you not beat yourself up, forgive yourself and be ok with what you'd done for your pet. I hope that in at least the smallest way my long story can help you grieve your loss and move on with focusing your attention on the 2 RF's that you still have. They are so, so cute!!!! I am absolutely in love with ours! Have you posted some pics of yours?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I don't know who said that or why, but I have not observed any such thing.

Here are the three main downfalls for tortoises that I see.
1. Keeper error.
2. Tortoises have all evolved ...
3. Veterinarian error. Sorry to say it, but most vets do not know squat about raising, caring for, or treating tortoises.

Does this offer any insight into your case Mantissa? Any idea what the issue was with your tortoise?

Great response. I forgot Squat was one slang word for another, both meaning feces. Maybe sorry that it's true, but a good thing to say that many vets are not tortoise savvy.

 

[Mantissa3]

Dear Mantissa, I too have signed on for the RF-keeping. Got RF hatchling presumably -girl, and Brazilian Cherryhead (presumably!) boy. My wonderful daughter has been dreaming of a pet(s) of her own to love, and after fruitless months of searching around our local rescues I finally got those babies for her. She is a great tort mom, but school and afterschool activities keep those kids nowadays so busy, I'm naturally helping her care for those two cuties. I knew nothing about reptile husbandry going into this, but will have to say that all the reasearch and connecting with others who are passionate keepers has been nothing but joyous experience for me. I have had few pets over the years and I want to tell you something, when it comes to weak or ailing animal, agressive treatment is often brutal for the pet and tormentous for us mentally, time conduming, not to mention the cost! Omg! Vet care is VERY EXPENSIVE! And I would never deny treatment to an animal who suffers, just wish there were more vets who would have either more integrity to tell me about the futility of the treatment, or maybe more vets competent in their work. I agree with Tom's statement about this problem in vet medicine. We have to remember that 50% of ALL vets were in the bottom half of their class in vet med school... In human medicine intense scrutiny keeps even the lowest end mediocre doctor on his/her toes if they want to keep peer review or medical malpractice away. In vet medicine there are many, many fantastic and completely dedicated people who do it for the love of animals, but there is also complacency... People tend to become laxed because they are tired, frustrated, overworked, overwhelmed with bills pilling up, etc... and it's often easy to take the "paved road"-easy way out, or make wrong assumptions etc. I had gone through illness/treatment and ultimately losing 3 most wonderful animals, and 3 people in my family. Loss is very, very hard to deal with, and must be grieved, in our own way. But going through those difficult times had taught me few good lessons, too. One of them opened my eyes to the concept of dying as being... natural, inevitable part of the Universe. Birth and death, both uniquely profound and both completely natural. I am still working on coming to grips with my own reaction to losing someone, person or pet, but more and more, do I find myself open to the idea of being ok, more accepting of illness and death around. Today, I'm not sure if I'd put my elderly, overweight dog through 750$ surgery only to have her die anyway 3 days later. I'm not sure if I'd put any of my older cats through multiple needle sticks for bloodwork and daily insulin shots should they develop diabetes. This is a major attitude shift and I make sure every new staff member in my vet's (of 19 years!) office is very aware of it. They are always reminded that my goal is to keep my animals happy and comfortable. The only time I allow any aggressive work is in catastrophnic injury situation to alleviate pain and suffering. If the treatment of illness/injury is means putting animals through testing/probing/cutting/needles... To me that means loss of quality of life for them and I'll just never do it. Ever again. My cats freak out even when going for their annual! I never get their teeth cleaned etc anymore! And I don't give rat's a... the the doc tells me they'll get gingivitis. He even stopped bringing that up anymore. Just gave up. If the cat is 17 yrs old... so what if she has some build up on her teeth?! If they get a sore somewhere that I don't know how to help them, yes, we go, get prescription or even antibiotic shot to help them, or they get RI, yes, he'll listen to them and give medicine, but little more else... Ofcourse mammals are much easier to read for me and I've kept them for many, many years, things will be different with reptiles. But my thinking is: my job is to provide best, most optimal environment for our baby torts, give them best, most optimal diet, allow for the optimal level of activity, in ither words, things are to mimic their natural enviriment as much as possible and if we do all that and they still fail to thrive... Then maybe it wasn't meant to be. Mantissa, I'm saying all this hoping that it my experience may help you not beat yourself up, forgive yourself and be ok with what you'd done for your pet. I hope that in at least the smallest way my long story can help you grieve your loss and move on with focusing your attention on the 2 RF's that you still have. They are so, so cute!!!! I am absolutely in love with ours! Have you posted some pics of yours?

Hi Pearly: You are a quality human being, and I truly appreciate the kind, thoughtful response to my obvious grief. I am coming to grips with losing both my parents (I'm an only child) and now losing my most precious animal-friend Gibby at such a young age, and due to something that nobody will ever really define for me. Gibby and I were unexplainably close- everyone in our lives said so. I'd go on a business trip during which time my husband would take care of Gib using the exact timing and food, and water and soil changes, etc that I did.

He "loved" and responded to my husband in a very positive, assertive way, sitting on his foot and seeking him out during wanderings in the garden, and they got along great. However, the minute I walked into the house, he would be up at the side of his table, "standing" straight up, and would start pawing the side when I came into view. When I picked him up, especially after not seeing him for a few days, he would tuck up in my hand(s) and rest his chin on my thumb, which was quite difficult at 2.5 pounds, but it is the way I held him on the ride home from his horrific conditions as a hatchling, when we first rescued him.

Some would say it was learned behavior and a conditioned response, that's fine. I think we were and are bonded more deeply than limbic brain responses and ganglia... Some animals and people in my life are spiritual connections that can not be explained away by bio and physio and conditioning and limbic responses connected to life on Earth... Gib was and is my heart, joined with me in my Spirit, and I miss him terribly, every single day.

I'm an engineer and I tend to need data, definition, order and reason. The losses I've recently experienced mean I have been coming around to this way of thinking for a few years, but you have put it in such a lovely, gentle way- about letting go and the cycles of life and death, thank you for this post. I've saved it and will be re-reading it time-to-time. I found a great deal of comfort in your words and your kinship here with loss and grief. Thank you so much, with highest regards, Karen

 

[Pearly]

Dear Karen, I am so sorry to hear about your parents. Especially being the only child. I thank God every day for still having my Mom, but my Dad died 20 yrs ago at 55. Back then it had seemed that every year I was losing someone very dear to me, 3 years in a row. It took me a long time to get to the point of inner peace, but I wasn't making any attempts to reach out to people for help and support. I thought I was supposed to cope by myself and "be strong" for those around me. I now wish I did take advantage of grief counseling then. It would have given me tools to grieve my losses in healthy way and I'd been spared years of crying every single time I'd found myself alone (driving to or from work). It would have helped me allow myself to celebrate those wonderful lives that had shaped who I am today... Grief hurts, but it is a healthy necessity in my opinion. I love how you describe your special connection with Gibby. I too love science, but tend to agree with you on spiritual connection with some animals. We are ALL connected in this Universe in one way or another. This is going off topic of your thread but I wanted to throw this out there for you. If you feel stuck in your bereavement and feel like you can't move on perhaps you might want to try looking into the Rainbow Bridge, it's a pet loss grief support community online. They offer some ideas and tools that may help you quite a bit. Please, remember to be kind to yourself. I hope you find a place in your heart and soul where you can embrace and nurture those most painful feelings and memories. Once accepted, loved and nurtured, they stop being so scary and bothersome. Courage, My Dear! Courage!❤️