T-70 days and counting. . .

[SeverusBites]

Hello Folks,

I wanted to share this turtle adventure. A decade ago I saw a box turtle lay eggs in my yard, retrieved them, and hatched 4 of 4 baby 3-toed box turtles, an amazing experience. A few years back I found an RES laying, and later dug up 14 eggs which all hatched, and after a year for most, two years for some, I repatriated them to their ancestral pond. This was another cool and fun experience, so the other day when I came across a Western Painted laying, I decided to try again. To be clear, both of these nests were essentially adjacent to heavily traveled footpaths in my neighborhood, so the chances are the eggs and hatchlings have a better shot with me.

My wife and I were walking around the neighborhood pond when we saw this:


I felt bad for the poor girl, the "soil" here is a gluey clay mud filled with rocks that is so sticky that it is difficult to dig in or even remove from your tools or hands.


Anyway, I left her alone and came back the next day. A convenient stone helped mark the spot, but the awful mud didn't allow much concealment so the nest was quite apparent.


The RES nest was in dryer earth and was essentially invisible when I looked for it, it took some poking around to find the spot, but this nest was right where I thought it was.


This clay is so hard to spread that the nest just had a smear of clay across the top as a cap, I could practically lift it off as one piece. You can clearly see the disturbed vs. non-disturbed earth here.


In the first go-round with the RES, I dug up 14 eggs but destroyed a 15th while digging. I was determined to avoid that calamity this time, so I carefully excavated the nest. There was a big root right across, more tribulation for her. . . I cut it out with my pocketknife, and the blade is pointing right at the plugged tube that descends into the nest chamber.


Continuing on, I removed the plug material, and soon I could see an egg. . . I was worried that since I'd disturbed her she might have moved elsewhere or that this might be a decoy nest, but no- eggs for sure.


The soil is so gluey that the chamber didn't fill in at all with loose dirt. It was a totally open chamber under the plug of clay.


After carefully getting the eggs out, you can see the rather large size of the chamber. Indeed, there was a big rock in the center, so she dug a donut of space around the rock and deposited the eggs there. I can't help but think that if I was 1" tall, it would have been cool to spelunk in there and see the huge eggs. . .


Anyway, I found 4 eggs in the nest, all looked great. One was laid more vertically, I kept it in position as I've been taught. One other egg rolled over while I was picking it up, Hopefully it survives. I know they need to stay right-side up, but I'm not sure how much and instant of gentle movement would matter.


I took them home and set up my tried-and-true incubator, this setup has hatched 18 of 18 eggs so far, with 4 more in the oven. It's just a cooler with some water and an aquarium heater.

The temp has stabilized at 81f and I think that will be fine. These, if they hatch, will come out around the end of July or a bit later.


At that point, I will release any other pond turtles I have and devote the space to these guys. I so love to watch little turtles grow up! Then, after overwintering with me, they will have quite a head-start, and I'll release them back into the ancestral pond, and with luck, begin the cycle again. . .

With luck I'll be back in about 70 days with a new post and some new baby turtles. . .

Thanks for looking.

 

[Yvonne G]

What fun! Always interesting to watch them develop and hatch. FYI, I think it's ok to move the eggs around until they start to develop, but I may be wrong.

 

[SeverusBites]

What fun! Always interesting to watch them develop and hatch. FYI, I think it's ok to move the eggs around until they start to develop, but I may be wrong.

Today, I noticed that a white spot had formed at the top of the three "horizontal" eggs, sorta from the inside, it looked like. Can't quite tell on the fourth, but no reason to think it's not the same. I think this is good, I think that as you say, the embryos were not attached yet and now they are. I retrieved the eggs only hour after they were laid.

If I remember right, the eggs will become more opaque white as time goes on. I've seen people say it before, but hatching eggs is totally exciting no matter you age or how many times you've done it!

 

[TammyJ]

Wishing you good luck with your project!

 

[Tom]

Today, I noticed that a white spot had formed at the top of the three "horizontal" eggs, sorta from the inside, it looked like. Can't quite tell on the fourth, but no reason to think it's not the same. I think this is good, I think that as you say, the embryos were not attached yet and now they are. I retrieved the eggs only hour after they were laid.

If I remember right, the eggs will become more opaque white as time goes on. I've seen people say it before, but hatching eggs is totally exciting no matter you age or how many times you've done it!

In general, it seems to be agreed upon that you have at least 24-48 hours after laying where the eggs can be moved around and rotated with n ill effect. Some sources say even longer than that, but I've never tested that theory.

I would switch them off the perlite. Perlite is deadly to chelonians. They will likely eat some upon hatchling, and at least some of the time, this hampers the function of their digestive system later on. Vermiculite is much safer and just as effective. For aquatic turtles there is evidence that mixing in some sphagnum peat moss, the dirt like type, not the long fibered "moss" type, helps with calcium chelation and absorption before hatching.

It will be no problem to switch the incubation media at any time during incubation as long as you don't turn the eggs at all. Good luck! Looking forward to the update in a couple of months!

 

[SeverusBites]

In general, it seems to be agreed upon that you have at least 24-48 hours after laying where the eggs can be moved around and rotated with n ill effect. Some sources say even longer than that, but I've never tested that theory.

I try not to peek, but then again, I'm not sure a 1-2 degree dip in temperature and some fresh air are hurting anything. I'm paranoid about water dripping on the eggs, so I open the cooler and shake off the plastic dome once every day or two.

That's just to explain why I've seen the eggs each day, but as I remembered, the white spot at the top of the egg has grown evenly, and if it proceeded a that rate for a few days, the whole egg would be opaque white as opposed to a sort of translucent pinkish white as they were. I'll check again today and see what's happened.

I would switch them off the perlite. Perlite is deadly to chelonians. They will likely eat some upon hatchling, and at least some of the time, this hampers the function of their digestive system later on. Vermiculite is much safer and just as effective. For aquatic turtles there is evidence that mixing in some sphagnum peat moss, the dirt like type, not the long fibered "moss" type, helps with calcium chelation and absorption before hatching.

It will be no problem to switch the incubation media at any time during incubation as long as you don't turn the eggs at all. Good luck! Looking forward to the update in a couple of months!

I bought a small incubator meant to house 4 chicken eggs, it should be here soon. I will try it because it is much smaller than my cooler arrangement and has a clear top, so I can observe without opening the incubator. Also, the sloped "roof" of this device mean that the condensation rolls to the sides and drips down, rather than potentially raining on the eggs.

It's a cheap import toy incubator, so I'll set it up and run it for a few days to be sure it will work. If it seems stable (enough) then I will move the little guys over. I can change the substrate at that time.


Do you think coco coir would be suitable? I have lots of that on hand but no sphagnum or vermiculite.

Another question- In my internet shopping, I saw lots of trays that are for reptile eggs, and have a tray for the eggs and a container for the substrate:


These might be mostly for desert lizards or snakes or whatever, but it prompts the question- Is any substrate needed at all? Is it there for anything other than support of the egg and to hold moisture?

To be honest, the empty clay chamber they were in was pretty open, the clay soil wasn't burying or really touching the eggs at all except where the eggs lay on the soil. I expect the humidity was very high in there, but perhaps not he 100% I have in my cooler-incubator.

Given all that, here is my question: Given that the little chicken incubator holds temps ok, Is there any need for any substrate at all, or can I just lay my four eggs on the provided tray, add water, and let it go?

I'm just curious really, my plan was to sit a small tray of substrate with eggs on top of the provided tray, but it would be neater if I could avoid that. What do you think?

 

[Tom]

I try not to peek, but then again, I'm not sure a 1-2 degree dip in temperature and some fresh air are hurting anything. I'm paranoid about water dripping on the eggs, so I open the cooler and shake off the plastic dome once every day or two.

That's just to explain why I've seen the eggs each day, but as I remembered, the white spot at the top of the egg has grown evenly, and if it proceeded a that rate for a few days, the whole egg would be opaque white as opposed to a sort of translucent pinkish white as they were. I'll check again today and see what's happened.

I bought a small incubator meant to house 4 chicken eggs, it should be here soon. I will try it because it is much smaller than my cooler arrangement and has a clear top, so I can observe without opening the incubator. Also, the sloped "roof" of this device mean that the condensation rolls to the sides and drips down, rather than potentially raining on the eggs.

It's a cheap import toy incubator, so I'll set it up and run it for a few days to be sure it will work. If it seems stable (enough) then I will move the little guys over. I can change the substrate at that time.
View attachment 345693

Do you think coco coir would be suitable? I have lots of that on hand but no sphagnum or vermiculite.

Another question- In my internet shopping, I saw lots of trays that are for reptile eggs, and have a tray for the eggs and a container for the substrate:
View attachment 345694

These might be mostly for desert lizards or snakes or whatever, but it prompts the question- Is any substrate needed at all? Is it there for anything other than support of the egg and to hold moisture?

To be honest, the empty clay chamber they were in was pretty open, the clay soil wasn't burying or really touching the eggs at all except where the eggs lay on the soil. I expect the humidity was very high in there, but perhaps not he 100% I have in my cooler-incubator.

Given all that, here is my question: Given that the little chicken incubator holds temps ok, Is there any need for any substrate at all, or can I just lay my four eggs on the provided tray, add water, and let it go?

I'm just curious really, my plan was to sit a small tray of substrate with eggs on top of the provided tray, but it would be neater if I could avoid that. What do you think?

Coco coir can work. RES are pretty resilient.

The air incubation over water is relatively new to the market. There are people who have been doing it that way for a long time, but it has jumped up in popularity in recent years. I've tried it with monitor lizard eggs, but never with turtle or tortoise eggs. I don't see why it would not work for RES, but since I've never done it, I can't say it works either. Using vermiculite has always worked well for me and frequently produces 100% hatch rates, so my thought on the matter is: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[SeverusBites]

I'm hoping Tom will give me the benefit of his experience above, but I wanted to keep talking with everyone here about another observation I've made about turtle eggs.

Above, I mentioned being afraid of the eggs getting wet, mainly due to mold concerns. I've actually had a few eggs grow some slight mold and hatch anyway. I read somewhere that some turtle eggs could actually hatch in water, given that they weren't eaten beforehand.

So there's a pretty good chance that turtle eggs are essentially waterproof, maybe all eggs are. But the mold issue is still there, so you have the conundrum of keeping humidity up while avoiding mold, all while avoiding opening the incubator too much. . . Jeez, how do these things ever hatch in nature? (I realize that many don't. . .)

Anyway, I mentioned I'd seen an egg with some minor mold on it hatch just fine. But my observation about the resilience of reptile egg shells goes bit further- At the beginning of this thread I mentioned the 14 RES eggs I hatched, many years ago, like 7-8 years. When they hatched, I tossed the substrate and remaining shells in the compost bin.

I was surprised when several years later I found pieces of those shells still mixed into the compost- just as white and as supple as they were the day I threw them out. The years had made little change, and no deterioration was evident.

Like I said, that was 7-8 years back- I still find little pieces of those shells in my compost!

Amazing! Whatever the turtles make that shell out of, it simply will not deteriorate due to natural composting, at least not quickly! (This same worm bin will reduce a paper towel to nothing overnight. . .)

 

[SeverusBites]

Coco coir can work. RES are pretty resilient.

Thanks for the confirmation- I really think that basically anything can work- Painted turtles are laying in all kinds of soils all over the country, and while we can't know how successful they are, they are definitely successful enough given that there are more Painted turtles around than any other.

The air incubation over water is relatively new to the market. There are people who have been doing it that way for a long time, but it has jumped up in popularity in recent years. I've tried it with monitor lizard eggs, but never with turtle or tortoise eggs. I don't see why it would not work for RES, but since I've never done it, I can't say it works either. Using vermiculite has always worked well for me and frequently produces 100% hatch rates, so my thought on the matter is: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Good points, all. Well, I guess I will be the guinea pig and try it. I'll either put them in there bare or with some coco, or maybe if I rifle the garden shed I can find a bag of vermiculite.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the confirmation- I really think that basically anything can work- Painted turtles are laying in all kinds of soils all over the country, and while we can't know how successful they are, they are definitely successful enough given that there are more Painted turtles around than any other.



Good points, all. Well, I guess I will be the guinea pig and try it. I'll either put them in there bare or with some coco, or maybe if I rifle the garden shed I can find a bag of vermiculite.

Its relatively cheap to buy at Home Depot.

 

[SeverusBites]

I don't know if anyone is interested, but I did get one of those little incubators off eBay to play with. I've had it set up for a week now, and the temperature is very stable, more so than my cooler-aquarium heater setup.

It comes with a little tray meant to hold eggs, and underneath is a fan and a small heater. As stated, it holds temperature very well, but I'm not sure how well it would hold or produce humidity. It has a little fan and a very small trough for water:


Another worry I had was whether the cheap import incubator would be reliable, but I got a pretty good lesson in how tough it was from my own stupidity. In pretty typical "who needs directions?" style I poured water in the base of the thing, not realizing that the narrow trough at the top of the pic is the water area. I just poured it right in the middle, and turned it on.

D'oh! It worked for minute, then the display started acting crazy and the device turned off. The real miracle is that even after unplugging and re-plugging the device to try to get it to reset (all while having wet electronics, I hadn't figured out my goof yet) and having it get really hot, I didn't manage to destroy it.

Thinking the device was DOA, I sent a note to the seller. They quickly shipped a new one, no return necessary. While waiting on that one, I took the time to peruse the instructions more carefully, and over time the first incubator dried out. I plugged it in a day or two later, and once totally dry, the thing still worked perfectly. I got lucky, but still, that is all the assurance I need. If this thing can take a bath while powered and survive some idiot powering it on over and over while it's wet, then it's actually pretty tough.

So with this assurance, (and a backup incubator in case something did happen) I decided to proceed with adapting it to our purpose of hatching a few turtle eggs. My main concern now is humidity- that tiny trough of water won't last long in my dry area, and opening the incubator every day to fill it wasn't appealing, and everyone I ever see hatch eggs (along with my own hatches) have employed a tray of substrate like vermiculite.

I work at a place where I help people use technology to develop prototypes, so fortunately I have a large array of tools to fabricate stuff. I started by designing a replacement for the egg tray in Sketchup:


I'm no cad wizard but it is fun to be able to put neat, very small details on the parts such as this 2mm wide drip hole and drainage slot with rim- This, along with a groove around the top side will ensure that any drainage or condensation will be routed to the only water-safe area underneath.




I printed two versions of the tray, one with text on it so I could tell which side was the back and position the drain correctly. The other is just plain. This printer prints the white and clear plastic at the same time, so the tray is one homogenous piece of plastic.


The tube parts are there because I decided that there should be a chimney to aid with some air movement and to admit the temperature probe into the chamber with the eggs, instead of measuring air trapped under the tray. I used the laser engraver to cut holes in the tray and printed chimney parts to glue in.


I printed a third version with an integral chimney and corner chimneys as well. The white part of my design matches the original exactly, and clear tray allows me to see how much moisture is being retained in the substrate (maybe) and a small drain prevent too much water from being held even if condensation drips into the tray.


It works great so far. Even if the chimney isn't needed for air movement, I do think it best to have the temperature probe near the eggs, or on their side of the plastic wall from the heater. So the chimney gives access for that while keeping substrate from escaping the tray.


On that one I also tilted the outer wall in slightly to allow for water to drain past if there is condensation and made a little notch in the back wall to indicate alignment.

By this point I have had both of the incubators for a few days, and I've established that they measure temperature to within one degree of each other. I compared various tray arrangements, but they made little if any difference so I might omit the corner chimneys if I did this again.


The only thing left to do now is fill up the tray and wet it, and see how crazy the condensation gets.

 

[TammyJ]

Seems like a plan!

 

[SeverusBites]

Seems like a plan!

Thanks for your reply. There may not be much interest in this, but I figured I'd finish the story.

It isn't a happy ending, so far.

Warning: This post contains photos of deceased animals.
Viewer discretion advised.


I was excited one day when my wife called to say one of these painted eggs was hatching. Indeed, it started out as normal:



Originally there were 4 eggs, but one went bad pretty much right away and I tossed it, it caved in and was obviously not viable. I opened it just to see, and it was just rotten yolk, no lumps or anything.

The third egg in the rear is bad too, but I had left it in up to this point. The little guy was slow to emerge, but I've been taught to wait and let it take it's own time.



He really struggled, and wasn't moving much. He stayed in the egg for four days, much longer than I have experienced before. As the opening widened, I could see a yolk sac in there.



Not knowing what to do, I let nature direct. My wife called again on day 4 or 5 to let me know that the turtle had worked free of the shell and was moving around in the incubator. I decided now was a good time to dispose of the third egg, and I considered opening it. I wasn't sure I wanted to see what was in there, even though these are wild turtles, I just love them so much. I already knew this turtle, if there was one, had perished. So, curiosity got the better of me and I cut open the egg.



There was a perfect, tiny, beautiful, dead baby turtle inside. This turtle was much smaller than the other one, and that makes sense since I think the development of this egg halted several weeks ago. I didn't take any other pictures but I did open the shell, and while the turtle and the yolk sac looked ok, the sac was rotten at the bottom, same as the first bad egg. I was surprised by how fully formed it was, but it was perhaps only weeks from hatching.



Finally, we come to the end. The little guy moved about in the incubator for a few hours, and when I got home I moved him to a box with some sphagnum moss, trying to make him as comfortable as I could. The yolk is so large that he could barely move with it. This isn't what I've seen before. I think it was still alive in this pic, but by the next day, he was gone.


Sigh. Another friend buried in the garden.

I don't take this too hard, I expect they had as good chance with me as they did where laid. Nothing says any of these eggs would make it. On the other hand, every one hurts me some. It won't be the first, or last time that I kneel in my garden, tears streaming down my face, digging a hole three times as deep as required, because when I stop digging, I have to let go of the little guy I'm holding against my belly. . .

Ok, I guess sometimes I take it hard. Every time, actually. But this isn't as bad as when it's purchased turtle, that you owe the best life and have spent time with, and money on.



Anyway, I debated about posting this at all, but ultimately if I can learn anything or if anyone else can, then it's all good.

Here are my takeaways from this:

-Previous hatches using perlite have been more successful for me
-The aquarium heater/cooler combo incubator ensures 100% humidity at all times. I found that the vermiculite had a tendency to dry out, likely due to the small volume, but when wet, it would stay really wet, perhaps contributing to the bottom-rot that I haven't encountered before.

The little chicken egg incubator wasn't a good idea because of the above, it's not large enough to hold enough media. I think moisture level fluctuation may have been a part of this failure.

The next time I incubate, I will try the heater/cooler method, but I will try the plastic trays that don't let the egg touch the substrate at all or perhaps go back to perlite.



My main questions is this- Why does a turtle emerge early? One good thing about that incubator is temps were very stable. Noise? Movement? I hope I didn't do something to trigger it, but I can't imagine what. I didn't handle the eggs or candle them or anything, they've been resting right there.

Has anyone else ever seen a hatchling emerge too early, or with too large a yolk like this one?



The glimmer of hope is that the last egg is still plump and white and hasn't shown the discoloration that heralded the end of the other eggs. If premature hatching was the only issue before, then this egg has a chance. It's a week later now, and it's still sitting there looking as good as ever, so I'm hoping that there is one lucky little turtle I have yet to meet. . .

 

[TammyJ]

Thanks for your reply. There may not be much interest in this, but I figured I'd finish the story.

It isn't a happy ending, so far.

Warning: This post contains photos of deceased animals.
Viewer discretion advised.


I was excited one day when my wife called to say one of these painted eggs was hatching. Indeed, it started out as normal:
View attachment 348857


Originally there were 4 eggs, but one went bad pretty much right away and I tossed it, it caved in and was obviously not viable. I opened it just to see, and it was just rotten yolk, no lumps or anything.

The third egg in the rear is bad too, but I had left it in up to this point. The little guy was slow to emerge, but I've been taught to wait and let it take it's own time.
View attachment 348858


He really struggled, and wasn't moving much. He stayed in the egg for four days, much longer than I have experienced before. As the opening widened, I could see a yolk sac in there.
View attachment 348859


Not knowing what to do, I let nature direct. My wife called again on day 4 or 5 to let me know that the turtle had worked free of the shell and was moving around in the incubator. I decided now was a good time to dispose of the third egg, and I considered opening it. I wasn't sure I wanted to see what was in there, even though these are wild turtles, I just love them so much. I already knew this turtle, if there was one, had perished. So, curiosity got the better of me and I cut open the egg.
View attachment 348860


There was a perfect, tiny, beautiful, dead baby turtle inside. This turtle was much smaller than the other one, and that makes sense since I think the development of this egg halted several weeks ago. I didn't take any other pictures but I did open the shell, and while the turtle and the yolk sac looked ok, the sac was rotten at the bottom, same as the first bad egg. I was surprised by how fully formed it was, but it was perhaps only weeks from hatching.
View attachment 348861


Finally, we come to the end. The little guy moved about in the incubator for a few hours, and when I got home I moved him to a box with some sphagnum moss, trying to make him as comfortable as I could. The yolk is so large that he could barely move with it. This isn't what I've seen before. I think it was still alive in this pic, but by the next day, he was gone.
View attachment 348862

Sigh. Another friend buried in the garden.

I don't take this too hard, I expect they had as good chance with me as they did where laid. Nothing says any of these eggs would make it. On the other hand, every one hurts me some. It won't be the first, or last time that I kneel in my garden, tears streaming down my face, digging a hole three times as deep as required, because when I stop digging, I have to let go of the little guy I'm holding against my belly. . .

Ok, I guess sometimes I take it hard. Every time, actually. But this isn't as bad as when it's purchased turtle, that you owe the best life and have spent time with, and money on.



Anyway, I debated about posting this at all, but ultimately if I can learn anything or if anyone else can, then it's all good.

Here are my takeaways from this:

-Previous hatches using perlite have been more successful for me
-The aquarium heater/cooler combo incubator ensures 100% humidity at all times. I found that the vermiculite had a tendency to dry out, likely due to the small volume, but when wet, it would stay really wet, perhaps contributing to the bottom-rot that I haven't encountered before.

The little chicken egg incubator wasn't a good idea because of the above, it's not large enough to hold enough media. I think moisture level fluctuation may have been a part of this failure.

The next time I incubate, I will try the heater/cooler method, but I will try the plastic trays that don't let the egg touch the substrate at all or perhaps go back to perlite.



My main questions is this- Why does a turtle emerge early? One good thing about that incubator is temps were very stable. Noise? Movement? I hope I didn't do something to trigger it, but I can't imagine what. I didn't handle the eggs or candle them or anything, they've been resting right there.

Has anyone else ever seen a hatchling emerge too early, or with too large a yolk like this one?



The glimmer of hope is that the last egg is still plump and white and hasn't shown the discoloration that heralded the end of the other eggs. If premature hatching was the only issue before, then this egg has a chance. It's a week later now, and it's still sitting there looking as good as ever, so I'm hoping that there is one lucky little turtle I have yet to meet. . .

I really admire your perseverance and share your sadness about the ones that don't make it. It's hard when you think about it this way - they had only just begun - but they also may have lived and suffered, so, we have to take comfort from knowing that we tried our best. Good luck with the last one!