T graeca no spurs, unidentified for 40+ years please help!

Velox-123

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He was found in the UK 40 years ago. He never seemed to fit any classification, but after some help on reddit he seems to be T graeca, possibly marokkensis or soussensis?

Discernable features:
4 front claws
3 back claws
No spur thighs
Length: 19cm
Age: Around 50-60

I've been told @HermanniChris is the expert!

I would really appreciate if anyone could tell me with some certainty as to what sub species he is. Thank you!
 

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TeamZissou

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I feel pretty good agreeing that it's soussensis since it is lacking spurs on the thighs, which seems to be a giveaway characteristic for this subspecies. It also has the rounded first vertebral scute, which is an indicator of it being a N. African Greek.

I thought for a while that it was a regular marokkensis due to the overall rounded shape of the head, as well as the eyebrows. The tortoise in Chris' first photo has a face that looks nearly identical to your tort, at least to me. Some stuff seems to suggest that soussensis and marokkensis are closely related and may be classified as a single subspecies eventually.


Chris doesn't have good photos of soussensis on his site unfortunately. I found this German website that has a couple of good photos.


original (http://www.graeca-home.de/GraecaTgg.htm)

Here are a few more forum posts regarding soussensis:

Thanks for posting this, great looking tort!
 

Velox-123

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Thank you for the links! Yes it's very difficult to distinguish, he has similarities to photos I've seen of both marokkensis and soussensis, but also differences.
 

Velox-123

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I also have some photos of soussensis on my website. I have a trio of hatchlings I bought from Chris and he sent me a few pictures of one of the parents.

Thanks! That adult soussensis has very different shell colouring to mine (whatever he may be). Seems there's a lot of crossover with marokkensis which makes me so unsure.

I saw on your site the lack of spurs wasn't a true distinguishable feature, do you know if it's possible for eg a marokkensis to have no spurs?
 

SweetGreekTorts

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Thanks! That adult soussensis has very different shell colouring to mine (whatever he may be). Seems there's a lot of crossover with marokkensis which makes me so unsure.

I saw on your site the lack of spurs wasn't a true distinguishable feature, do you know if it's possible for eg a marokkensis to have no spurs?
Anything is possible, especially if there's any crossbreeding in the wild between those two subspecies. I know that the Hermann's tortoise lacks thigh spurs except for one particular locale that does have them. Chris works a lot with Greeks so I know he can provide more insight.
 

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