Testudo hermanni boettgeri Adoption

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theTurtleRoom

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Since I typically follow the taxonomy that is released at the end of each year by the Turtle Taxonomy Working Group (van Dijk, P.P., Iverson, J.B., Shaffer, H.B., Bour, R., and Rhodin, A.G.J.) and had recently had a contact with Anders Rhodin, I asked him for some expanded thoughts on the matter. He forwarded my email to Peter Paul van Dijk who had the following to say. I post it not for arguments sake, but for the sake of education on varying opinions of the matter. His comments follow:

As far as I recall, hercegovinensis had a brief spell of being recognised as a valid subspecies of hermanni in the early 2000s, after which people looked into it further and found that its genetics were not particularly distinctive (Fritz et al 2006), nor did the supposed diagnostic arrangement of bridge scutes stand up to scrutiny (in the sense that known-locality animals did not uniformly show the condition, while some hermanni animals outside the claimed hercegovinensis range did show the scute arrangement [unpublished info from colleagues]). Thus, hercegovinensis is now generally considered to have been based on a slightly aberrant individual, which is nor representative of a distinct form in the Balkans. Regrettably the 'exclusivity' of hercegovinensis fueled a demand for these unusual rare animals, so that animals showing the characters were emphasised as such and traded at a premium (some targeted breeding for the phenotype occurred in Europe at least).
 

Anthony P

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Look at you Steve... Convo with Anders Rhodin.. Just another day at the office for you my friend. Happy to have so much info in this thread. It's gold to me.

GB, I will definitely take you up on that PM offer! I appreciate that.
 

GBtortoises

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theTurtleRoom said:
Since I typically follow the taxonomy that is released at the end of each year by the Turtle Taxonomy Working Group (van Dijk, P.P., Iverson, J.B., Shaffer, H.B., Bour, R., and Rhodin, A.G.J.) and had recently had a contact with Anders Rhodin, I asked him for some expanded thoughts on the matter. He forwarded my email to Peter Paul van Dijk who had the following to say. I post it not for arguments sake, but for the sake of education on varying opinions of the matter. His comments follow:

As far as I recall, hercegovinensis had a brief spell of being recognised as a valid subspecies of hermanni in the early 2000s, after which people looked into it further and found that its genetics were not particularly distinctive (Fritz et al 2006), nor did the supposed diagnostic arrangement of bridge scutes stand up to scrutiny (in the sense that known-locality animals did not uniformly show the condition, while some hermanni animals outside the claimed hercegovinensis range did show the scute arrangement [unpublished info from colleagues]). Thus, hercegovinensis is now generally considered to have been based on a slightly aberrant individual, which is nor representative of a distinct form in the Balkans. Regrettably the 'exclusivity' of hercegovinensis fueled a demand for these unusual rare animals, so that animals showing the characters were emphasised as such and traded at a premium (some targeted breeding for the phenotype occurred in Europe at least).
Without going into several paragraphs of a long, drawn out explanation of geographic ranges, population descriptions, characteristics and taxanomy details here I will just say that, Dalmatian tortoises, Testudo hermanni hercegovinensis has and still is generally accepted worldwide among serious collectors and breeders as a valid subspecies distinct of T. h. boettgeri and all other Hermann's subspecies. Those people, myself being one of them, have handled, seen and bred this subspecies for decades. In it's pure form it is very disctinct and easily identifiable based on multiple differences in structure and cosmetic features. One problem in captivity is that it has been hybridized with the more genetically dominate Eastern Hermann's. It is by no means a "rare" tortoise. What is rare is to find good purebred examples in captivity. I've been keeping and breeding this subspecies, as well as Easterns and Westerns into my fourth decade (longer with Easterns) now. In that time span I've hatched, raised, bred and handled thousands of both Eastern and Dalmatian Hermann's. Certainly enough to know that there is a very obvious difference in the two. I personally put little stock in what a researchers claims something should or shouldn't be called. I go with what the people with live long hands on experience believe. While a researchers information may often be a good guildeline, their minds change too, as do the opinions of any given group of researchers. A prime example of that is the fact that from about the late 60's through the very early 80's the nominate species of the Hermann's complex was reconsidered to the the Eastern Hermann's which was renamed T. h. hermanni despite concrete evidence that the original nominate type animal was clearly a Western Hermann's, T. h. hermanni. The Western Hermann's was then incorrectly renamed T. h. robertmertensi. After 2+ decades someone finally realized the mistake and re-corrected the naming to reflect correctly that the Western Hermann's,
T. h. hermanni
is the nominate species and the Eastern Hermann's, T. h. boettgeri is a subspecies. If all of this is beginning to sound boring, that is because it truly is! You are obviously more than welcome to believe whatever you choose. I will continue to do the same based on what I have experienced first hand.
 
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