The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

fernando7kose

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Hi everyone,
I have a few questions to fellow Burmese Star owners :

1. Does your star like bright lights? I came across a few threads that say their stars like it bright & some that say the opposite. Mine doesn't like it bright, I tried installing a LED tube in his enclosure & he stayed inside his hide the whole time. The day after I took out the tube, his activity became normal again.

2. I've had my star for around a month. In the past 2 weeks, he wouldn't eat/move at all during the day. He would only be active around 4-7 PM, around 2 hours of active time. During his active time, he would walk, eat, bask, drink, climb normally. Should I be concerned?

A few informations about my setup :
- Height is around 15", closed top chamber
- Substrare : orchid bark
- 100 W incadescent bulb
- Ambience temp : 90
- Cool side : 86
- Basking : 97
- Night temp : 83

My star is around 4", he's gained around 30 grams this past month (313 to 349 g).
Diet : dandelion greens, hibiscus, mulberry, grape, opuntia, maizuri, zoomed pellets
I soak him 4-5 times a week under direct sunlight in the morning for around 20 mins, he always poops during his soak.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!
 

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Tom

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Hi everyone,
I have a few questions to fellow Burmese Star owners :

1. Does your star like bright lights? I came across a few threads that say their stars like it bright & some that say the opposite. Mine doesn't like it bright, I tried installing a LED tube in his enclosure & he stayed inside his hide the whole time. The day after I took out the tube, his activity became normal again.

2. I've had my star for around a month. In the past 2 weeks, he wouldn't eat/move at all during the day. He would only be active around 4-7 PM, around 2 hours of active time. During his active time, he would walk, eat, bask, drink, climb normally. Should I be concerned?

A few informations about my setup :
- Height is around 15", closed top chamber
- Substrare : orchid bark
- 100 W incadescent bulb
- Ambience temp : 90
- Cool side : 86
- Basking : 97
- Night temp : 83

My star is around 4", he's gained around 30 grams this past month (313 to 349 g).
Diet : dandelion greens, hibiscus, mulberry, grape, opuntia, maizuri, zoomed pellets
I soak him 4-5 times a week under direct sunlight in the morning for around 20 mins, he always poops during his soak.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!
This species appears to be somewhat crepuscular. They are most active in the evening. When housed indoors, mine will also largely sleep the day away. Within my groups of babies, some will nibble on the food throughout the day, but they come out and hit it hard at the end of the day within a couple hours of the lights going out. I try to make my indoor enclosures bright and "sunny" during the day. I've never tried keep them dimly lit.

When I move them outside as adults, their activity patterns seem to change with the seasons. In our cooler winters, they are most active during mid day when it is warmest. In summer, they are most active in the evening and usually still out walking around as it is getting dark.

Your diet sounds great. Try to add more weeds and grasses. They love grass, but be sure it is tender young grass, not the old tough stuff, and cut the pieces so they are around 4-6cm in length. I mix the cut pieces in with the other greens.
 

fernando7kose

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Location (City and/or State)
Indonesia
This species appears to be somewhat crepuscular. They are most active in the evening. When housed indoors, mine will also largely sleep the day away. Within my groups of babies, some will nibble on the food throughout the day, but they come out and hit it hard at the end of the day within a couple hours of the lights going out. I try to make my indoor enclosures bright and "sunny" during the day. I've never tried keep them dimly lit.

When I move them outside as adults, their activity patterns seem to change with the seasons. In our cooler winters, they are most active during mid day when it is warmest. In summer, they are most active in the evening and usually still out walking around as it is getting dark.

Your diet sounds great. Try to add more weeds and grasses. They love grass, but be sure it is tender young grass, not the old tough stuff, and cut the pieces so they are around 4-6cm in length. I mix the cut pieces in with the other greens.
Thank you for the explanation Tom!
Would you say that my enclosure is bright anough?
The 1st pic shows the LED tube, the 2nd pic is without the tube. It also gets additional lighting from the bulb inside the room where the enclosure is.

And one more thing, is it okay if my star doesn't eat in the morning? He never touches his food until it's evening, even after his morning soak.
 

Tom

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Thank you for the explanation Tom!
Would you say that my enclosure is bright anough?
The 1st pic shows the LED tube, the 2nd pic is without the tube. It also gets additional lighting from the bulb inside the room where the enclosure is.

And one more thing, is it okay if my star doesn't eat in the morning? He never touches his food until it's evening, even after his morning soak.
In most cases I like to make it bright for day time, but if your tortoise is behaving normally and thriving with the light you are providing, then I'd say carry on without changing anything.

My stars frequently leave the food sitting all day, and don't eat until late afternoon or evening. Totally normal for this species.
 

fernando7kose

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Indonesia
In most cases I like to make it bright for day time, but if your tortoise is behaving normally and thriving with the light you are providing, then I'd say carry on without changing anything.

My stars frequently leave the food sitting all day, and don't eat until late afternoon or evening. Totally normal for this species.
So glad to hear this, thank you for always being such a help Tom. Much appreciated!
 
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uscpsycho

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First time poster here and like all the others, I want to thank Tom (and many others) for sharing his expertise! This clarifies so much of the awful misinformation floating around out there, I was losing my mind trying to make sense of it.

I have read the entire thread and I have some questions about setting things up for a four month old star tortoise.

1) I'll start with a question on the subject of the last few posts regarding ambient light. Based on my years of keeping reptiles and the first post of this thread, supplementary ambient light is optional. But Tom's last few posts seem to suggest it is desirable. Can my ambient light just be the regular day/night patterns of my home (natural + artificial light) or do I really need supplemental ambient light?

2) Incandescent flood lights are recommended for basking. This thread was started nearly three years ago but today, in California, incandescent light bulbs are illegal so you can't buy them from Amazon or Home Depot or anywhere else. I feel like the first post should be updated with options for California residents and residents of other states that have banned or may ban these bulbs.

I would like to replicate the setup I have for my ball python which has surprisingly similar heat/humidity needs. For the tortoise could I just set up two CHE's controlled by thermostats at each end of the enclosure? One would be set to 95 degrees during the day and then off at night. The other would be set to 80 degrees 24/7. This will create a basking spot and an 80-95 degree gradient between the two ends during the day. But in the evening it would be the other way around, one side would be 80 and the other side would probably drop to 75 or so. Any problem with a setup like this?

3) Since I will have a heat gradient, which side should the humid hide be?

4) I have not seen foggers mentioned at all in this thread but I have had success using a fogger with a screen top cage for my python and can easily maintain 80% humidity even though the substrate dries out. Is there anything wrong with using a fogger for a tortoise?

5) I keep seeing the recommendation to feed grass and weeds. I have plenty of both in my yards but I haven't the foggiest idea what type they are. As long as they are pesticide-free is it safe to blindly offer any weeds and grass to my tortoise? Or are there some grasses and weeds that are toxic?

6) Mazuri tortoise diet has been recommended here. But I have A LOT of Mazuri herbivorous reptile diet and I wonder if it's OK to feed this instead? Here is a link to it, you can see the ingredients on the product images.

TIA!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
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Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
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First time poster here and like all the others, I want to thank Tom (and many others) for sharing his expertise! This clarifies so much of the awful misinformation floating around out there, I was losing my mind trying to make sense of it.

I have read the entire thread and I have some questions about setting things up for a four month old star tortoise.

1) I'll start with a question on the subject of the last few posts regarding ambient light. Based on my years of keeping reptiles and the first post of this thread, supplementary ambient light is optional. But Tom's last few posts seem to suggest it is desirable. Can my ambient light just be the regular day/night patterns of my home (natural + artificial light) or do I really need supplemental ambient light?

2) Incandescent flood lights are recommended for basking. This thread was started nearly three years ago but today, in California, incandescent light bulbs are illegal so you can't buy them from Amazon or Home Depot or anywhere else. I feel like the first post should be updated with options for California residents and residents of other states that have banned or may ban these bulbs.

I would like to replicate the setup I have for my ball python which has surprisingly similar heat/humidity needs. For the tortoise could I just set up two CHE's controlled by thermostats at each end of the enclosure? One would be set to 95 degrees during the day and then off at night. The other would be set to 80 degrees 24/7. This will create a basking spot and an 80-95 degree gradient between the two ends during the day. But in the evening it would be the other way around, one side would be 80 and the other side would probably drop to 75 or so. Any problem with a setup like this?

3) Since I will have a heat gradient, which side should the humid hide be?

4) I have not seen foggers mentioned at all in this thread but I have had success using a fogger with a screen top cage for my python and can easily maintain 80% humidity even though the substrate dries out. Is there anything wrong with using a fogger for a tortoise?

5) I keep seeing the recommendation to feed grass and weeds. I have plenty of both in my yards but I haven't the foggiest idea what type they are. As long as they are pesticide-free is it safe to blindly offer any weeds and grass to my tortoise? Or are there some grasses and weeds that are toxic?

6) Mazuri tortoise diet has been recommended here. But I have A LOT of Mazuri herbivorous reptile diet and I wonder if it's OK to feed this instead? Here is a link to it, you can see the ingredients on the product images.

TIA!
HELLO AND WELCOME!

Answers to your questions:
1. Our knowledge and experience evolves and increases over time. Many of us work together and confer both publicly and privately behind the scenes. We attend tortoises conferences, and live daily life thinking about and engaging in tortoise care. @Markw84 tells people that he learned stuff from me, but I consider him a mentor and a fine example of excellence to emulate. He is also very knowledgeable about every aspect of lighting, and he and I, along with several others that we keep in touch with are constantly experimenting and tweaking the details of how we keep our tortoises and raise babies. This whole community contributes to this ever growing base of knowledge. Sooooo, to answer you question, yes. I now consider additional ambient lighting essential, and have found it to be highly beneficial. With Mark's emphatic recommendation based on the results of his own experimentation with the matter, I've been trying it out over the last couple of years, and brighter is better. It should look like daytime in there, BUT, also with plants, cover, and shady spots for them to seek shelter in.

2. Yes. Problem. It doesn't work. BPs thrive under this sort of set up. Not tortoises. Torts need to see the light along with their basking heat. I'm not saying your tortoise won't survive with CHEs next to a light source. I'm saying its better to use a flood bulb. The bulb are not illegal to possess. It is illegal to "sell" them in CA. So buy them elsewhere and drive or have them shipped here by friends and family. Make a post and I can all but guarantee that someone in a free state will send you some. That's how I get them, and I use a lot of them in my indoor set ups and outdoor night boxes. Also, NO part of the enclosure should ever drop below 80 for a star, and the whole enclosure should get into the ow to mid 90s during the day for a star baby. Indians like it hot.

3. Doesn't matter where you put the humid hide. The whole enclosure should be warm and humid, so it doesn't matter if its a little warmer or not, since it will always be warm enough.

4. Foggers should not be blowing directly into tortoise enclosures. I think a baby Indian star would be number one on my list of species to NOT do this with. Tortoises should not be breathing in those little micro-droplets. This is not the same as high humidity. Its wet air, not humid air. Humidifiers can be used in the room to increase ambient humidity, but not directly in the enclosure. High humidity is easilymaintained by using a large closed chamber. Open tops, and having heating and lighting outside the enclosure do not work. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It doesn't work.

5. Some are toxic. You must now embark on a long never-ending journey of self education grasshoppa'. As a tortoise owner, it is now your job to study and learn about the natural world around you and also develop your gardening, landscaping, and plant management skills. You are now a weed farmer. Welcome to the club and CONGRATULATIONS! Find the plant nerd at your local nursery and make friends with him or her. Get them a gift card or something. You are going to need their help. Or... you can use crappy grocery store greens, and amend them with lots of fantastic offerings from @Kapidolo Farms .

6. I'm certain that a little of that once in a while will do no harm, but its high in protein and fat, and low in fiber compared to the Mazuri tortoise offerings. I know of no one with first hand experience feeding that one to tortoises, so I can offer no wisdom one way or the other. My gut says stick with the tried and true tortoise foods. I use the original 5M21, and also the newer LS type. Both are great and both work.

These are excellent questions. Its great to have another experienced reptile keeper on board. Here is more info:
 

uscpsycho

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I'd like to start this post with a question about soaking. How high should the water be? I can't find the post now but I swear I saw someone advise water halfway up the body of the tortoise. Is this for adults? Seems like if I put my baby in water half way up its body, it would drown.

I put it in water today and the first thing it did is go into its shell which resulted in its head being completely submerged even in very shallow water. So I reduced the water until I was sure it wouldn't drown. After a short time it came out of the shell and then I slowly added water to a level I could be sure is safe.

If this happens again, do I have to worry about the tortoise drowning or inhaling water? Can I safely start with the higher water level, even though its head is totally under water if it retreats at the start?

NO part of the enclosure should ever drop below 80 for a star, and the whole enclosure should get into the ow to mid 90s during the day for a star baby. Indians like it hot.

I read that it should never drop below 80 but I thought 75 might be safe at night and if it wanted 80 it could just go to the warm side. It would be easy enough for me to maintain 80 on both sides at night but you're recommending not to go the CHE route so I'll get my hands on a flood light.

But what you said about the entire enclosure being mid-90's during the day is a bit confusing. The first post says the basking spot should be high 80's to low 90's. But if the entire enclosure is in the mid 90's how am I to create a basking spot without making it too hot? Maybe tortoises are different but in my experience, reptiles should always have a heat gradient. But what you're advising to have the entire enclosure one temperature would make it impossible for the tortoise to thermoregulate, is this OK for tortoises?

Foggers should not be blowing directly into tortoise enclosures. I think a baby Indian star would be number one on my list of species to NOT do this with. Tortoises should not be breathing in those little micro-droplets. This is not the same as high humidity. Its wet air, not humid air. Humidifiers can be used in the room to increase ambient humidity, but not directly in the enclosure. High humidity is easilymaintained by using a large closed chamber. Open tops, and having heating and lighting outside the enclosure do not work. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It doesn't work.

If you don't mind my asking, can you elaborate on this? Foggers are safely used with all kinds of herps that require high humidity. I would not have the fogger on 24/7 creating a foggy atmosphere which engulfs the enclosure. I run mine on a hygrometer so the fogger comes on every few minutes just long enough to maintain the desired humidity level.

In a closed chamber is there any concern about the humidity being too high? If so, I feel like it would not be so easy to get the humidity down. Too high humidity is a concern with a lot of reptiles, maybe not with star torts.

Some are toxic. You must now embark on a long never-ending journey of self education grasshoppa'. As a tortoise owner, it is now your job to study and learn about the natural world around you and also develop your gardening, landscaping, and plant management skills. You are now a weed farmer. Welcome to the club and CONGRATULATIONS! Find the plant nerd at your local nursery and make friends with him or her. Get them a gift card or something. You are going to need their help. Or... you can use crappy grocery store greens, and amend them with lots of fantastic offerings from @Kapidolo Farms .

Just to clarify, are some grasses toxic or just some weeds? If all grass is safe, I'd like to at least start with that. What about hay? I haven't seen that mentioned at all.

I've seen turtlesupply.com highly recommended on this forum many times and they post things that contradict the advice given here. For instance, in their Instagram account they have a video of baby torts sitting right under a fogger and video showing how they prepare their tortoise food from grocery food.

Reading this site, I can't help but think of the phrase "Don't let perfect get in the way of good." I don't know enough about tortoises yet but I often see this online and especially with animal care. The biggest advocates sometimes want everyone to do things perfectly when the difference between perfect and very good is not significant for the animal but can be onerous for the owner.

Looking forward to learning more. I may push back on things that don't make sense to me but hopefully it doesn't come across as being disrespectful, just trying to learn and make it make sense for me. Also, should all related questions go into this thread or do you guys prefer starting new threads so that this one doesn't get too long?
 
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Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
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Location (City and/or State)
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I'd like to start this post with a question about soaking. How high should the water be? I can't find the post now but I swear I saw someone advise water halfway up the body of the tortoise. Is this for adults? Seems like if I put my baby in water half way up its body, it would drown.

I put it in water today and the first thing it did is go into its shell which resulted in its head being completely submerged even in very shallow water. So I reduced the water until I was sure it wouldn't drown. After a short time it came out of the shell and then I slowly added water to a level I could be sure is safe.

If this happens again, do I have to worry about the tortoise drowning or inhaling water? Can I safely start with the higher water level, even though its head is totally under water if it retreats at the start?
There is a wide margin of error. Anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 way up the tortoise is a good range. At any given time over the last few years I have 20-200 hatchings going and sometimes other people help me with them when work gets busy. All of them gets soaked every single day. They have been done too warm, too cool, too deep and too shallow, and 100% survived. They will not drown if they are tucked in and the water covers there face initially. If you make the water too deep, your tortoise will stand and lift its head up. You will see this, and can reduce the water level as needed. Over time, you will get a feel for this.

I read that it should never drop below 80 but I thought 75 might be safe at night and if it wanted 80 it could just go to the warm side. It would be easy enough for me to maintain 80 on both sides at night but you're recommending not to go the CHE route so I'll get my hands on a flood light.
75 is too cool at night with humidity for a star. You run the risk of respiratory infection. Allowing the tortoise the choice will frequently result in the tortoise choosing poorly and getting sick. Same thing when the tortoise is an adult and living outside. Sometimes they park under a convenient bush when nights temps are dropping into the 50s or lower, instead of going into their heated night boxes. They don't always make wise choices. Where they evolved, parking under a bush will not result in sickness. In our North American temperate climate, it can and frequently does. We have to help them. We can offer choices, but ALL of the choices have to result in a positive outcome. 75 is too cool and risks a negative outcome if the tortoise chooses that.

I didn't say not to go the CHE route. I said don't use a CHE during the day instead of an incandescent flood bulb. CHEs are great to use for night and ambient day time heat with a thermostat. I think you might have mis read it, or it is likely you are confusing my info with info read elsewhere. This is quoted from the care sheet that started this thread:

"Heating And Lighting:
I use a 45-65 watt incandescent flood bulb on a 12 hour timer and adjust the height of the fixture to get a basking area of around 95-100 directly under the bulb. In some closed chambers I go with lower wattage bulbs. This depends on many factors and no one can tell you exactly what wattage you will need in your enclosure. Let your thermometer be your guide. I use a ceramic heating element or a radiant heat panel set to 80 degrees on a reptile thermostat to maintain my ambient temperature in the enclosure. The basking lamp should raise the day time ambient temperature into the high 80s or low 90s. Ambient should be no lower than 80, but drifting up to 90 during the heat of the day is good. The thermostat will keep your CHE or RHP off during these times, but ready to click on after the basking lamp clicks off and the ambient temperature starts to drop at night. I use LED bulbs when I want to brighten up the whole enclosure and I run these on the same timer as the basking bulb. There are other ways to do some of this, but trial and error have shown time and time again, that the above is what works the best. Don't use "spot" bulbs, reptile specialty bulbs, halogen bulbs, any cfl, or mercury vapor bulbs. You want a plain old, regular incandescent flood bulb from the hardware store. I buy them in six or twelve packs, so I always have extras on hand. They always go out at the most inopportune times."

But what you said about the entire enclosure being mid-90's during the day is a bit confusing. The first post says the basking spot should be high 80's to low 90's. But if the entire enclosure is in the mid 90's how am I to create a basking spot without making it too hot? Maybe tortoises are different but in my experience, reptiles should always have a heat gradient. But what you're advising to have the entire enclosure one temperature would make it impossible for the tortoise to thermoregulate, is this OK for tortoises?
Re-read the above quoted material from the last answer. Basking is 95-100. If the entire enclosure heats up to an ambient temp of 93, the tortoise can move over to its shady humid hide side and be 93. Frequently my Burmese stars, and other people's Indians and Sri Lankans, bask directly under the heat lamp when temps are this high. The tortoise can heat up to 100 in the basking area, or cool to 93, or anywhere in between. Thermoregulation. Few people understand how hot and humid it is in India if you haven't lived there. The "dry" season features temps over 100 and humidity 60-80%. The "wet" season features temps near 100 daily and 80-100% humidity, so I am told by a tortoise forum member who lived over there for 2 years. I apologize I do not know what city, or cities, he lived in over there. Your tortoise will enjoy it and thrive with hot temps.

If you don't mind my asking, can you elaborate on this? Foggers are safely used with all kinds of herps that require high humidity. I would not have the fogger on 24/7 creating a foggy atmosphere which engulfs the enclosure. I run mine on a hygrometer so the fogger comes on every few minutes just long enough to maintain the desired humidity level.
Yes, I can elaborate. I have no experience using foggers with other reptiles... Wait, that's not true... Years ago I had a super duper cool naturalistic scrub python enclosure that used to be a giant dart frog enclosure, and my buddy hooked a fogger up to run up through the floor in what used to be the filter hose bulk head for the water portion of the palludarium. We filled in the water portion with soil and substrate, but still had that bulk head opening in the bottom of the tank. That snake enclosure was SOOOOOO cool with the eerie mist filling it up from the bottom, and caused me no problems, but that was in the early 90s... I digress... I used foggers early in in many of my experiments when I was trying to solve the mysteries of tortoise pyramiding when I first joined this forum years ago, in a futile attempt to keep humidity where it needed to be in open topped enclosure in my reptile room. The results were poor, and I saw the start of RI in some of the torts. I've seen this in other people's tortoises too, so it might be fine for some reptiles, but not for tortoises, and DEFINITELY not for an Indian star tortoise which are probably THE most sensitive species for RI. Once I discovered how well closed chamber worked, I had no need for foggers.

In a closed chamber is there any concern about the humidity being too high? If so, I feel like it would not be so easy to get the humidity down. Too high humidity is a concern with a lot of reptiles, maybe not with star torts.
No. It can't be too high that we have ever found. I shoot for 80+% during the day and humidity climbs at night as temps cool down to 80 degrees. In a closed chamber it is effortless to maintain these levels, and if ever things were too wet or too humid, it is very easy to open up the vents and leave the doors cracked for more ventilation to let things dry out as needed.

Just to clarify, are some grasses toxic or just some weeds? If all grass is safe, I'd like to at least start with that. What about hay? I haven't seen that mentioned at all.
I know of no commonly found grasses that are toxic, but I am certain there are some if someone were to look hard enough. What can be toxic is sod and all those yard chemicals sold at the hardware stores. Do be careful to avoid that and those.

Hay is not an appropriate food for star tortoises. Hay is an excellent food for large Galapagos tortoises, Aldabra tortoises, South African Leopard tortoises, and sulcatas. It really isn't appropriate for any other species. It can be chopped and re-hydrated to add fiber to the diet of other tortoise species, but I usually recommend soaked horse hay pellets for that purpose. Hay is not suitable for bedding because it will mold when damp, and the substrate should be damp.

I've seen turtlesupply.com highly recommended on this forum many times and they post things that contradict the advice given here. For instance, in their Instagram account they have a video of baby torts sitting right under a fogger and video showing how they prepare their tortoise food from grocery food.
I don't know turtlesupply.com, but I think you are referring to Tortoisesupply.com. That is Tyer and Sarah. They are wonderful friends and excellent human beings. I love both of them. Having said that, I don't agree with some of their practices, and they don't agree with some of mine, and that is okay. I use grocery store foods too, but I add in amendments. This is all explained in the care sheet, and it would appear you need to read through it again. There is a lot of info to take in, and most people need to read it at least twice, if not more. The diet info seems to be the second thing you missed, along with the basking temps.

Reading this site, I can't help but think of the phrase "Don't let perfect get in the way of good." I don't know enough about tortoises yet but I often see this online and especially with animal care. The biggest advocates sometimes want everyone to do things perfectly when the difference between perfect and very good is not significant for the animal but can be onerous for the owner.
I don't see how this catch phrase applies, and in time, I don't think you will either. I have decades of experience housing tortoises multiple ways and have done countless side-by-side experiments with clutch mates changing one variable at a time to determine what works best and why. Closed chambers are a game changer for tortoises. Literally. Due to the nature of how their carapaces grow, there is simply no better way to do it. There is no other even satisfactory way to do it, unless you don't mind pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. While the cosmetic appearance of pyramids on a tortoise's carapace is unpleasant, the greater problem is that this indicates that the tortoise was grown in conditions that were less than optimal, to phrase it nicely. The difference between closed chambers and open tops is significant. The gains are immeasurable. Everyone who switches says so. The only people arguing are the people who have not done it and think it "seems" unnatural based on the old wrong info they were taught.

Looking forward to learning more. I may push back on things that don't make sense to me but hopefully it doesn't come across as being disrespectful, just trying to learn and make it make sense for me. Also, should all related questions go into this thread or do you guys prefer starting new threads so that this one doesn't get too long?
These questions are pertinent, articulate, and intelligent. You seem to have to previous reptile experience to draw from, and it is very telling that you have already noticed the distinct difference between the info we espouse and the rest of the tortoise info out in the world. Its different. Very different, and your questions will help you and anyone reading better understand why we say what we say here. Its based on decades of factual evidence. Not something we read and repeated. Not opinions or feelings. Push back all you like. I have not felt disrespected in the least. I feel like this is new info, contradictory to what you've read or seen previously, and you are appropriately calling me to task for more explanation. That is exactly how this should work.

I propose we finish this conversation on this thread so that people can follow along, and new questions could be started on a new thread of your own.

This thread will offer more insight into some of this, and give you some context:

 

Lucy'smom56

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I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species.

Babies hatch during the start of the rainy season. It is hot, very humid, rainy, and marshy in some areas. There are puddles and lush green growing food everywhere. In some areas there is a dry season, but the hot monsoon season is when babies hatch, and babies find humid microclimates to hide in during drier times. In extreme conditions they aestivate and don't eat or grow at all when its hot and dry. Keeping your hatchling in a dry, desert-like enclosure, is a big mistake and an invitation to disaster. It is also very un-natural for these animals. Damp substrate, a water bowl, and a humid hide should all be pre-requisites. Along with this, warm temps day and night are necessary. Sulcatas, leopards and stars are NOT prone to shell rot at all, and they do not get respiratory infections in these damp conditions as long as temps are kept up. I shoot for no lower than 80 degrees day or night year round, and all three of these heat loving species do well with a day time ambient approaching 90 degrees. Humidity is at 80+% all the time. Most people keep them too cool and too dry. Adults can tolerate colder temps and drier conditions in some circumstances, but this care sheet is for hatchlings and babies and is aimed at helping them thrive, not just survive. I know the books, the breeders and the "experts" all say the opposite of this. They are wrong. They've been wrong for 30 years. For 20 of those years I was wrong right along with them. Some of us have learned and advanced. Some have not. Keep this in mind when consulting a vet, or a potential breeder or seller that you want to buy from. As soon as they contradict this info and tell you "this is a desert species", you will know NOT to buy from them.

Some General Notes:
  • Set up your enclosure, run it, check it and make adjustments BEFORE you bring home a new tortoise. Babies are easy if the set up is correct. Babies aren't delicate or difficult. When babies are not started correctly is when people have problems with them. Babies have a smaller margin of error due to their smaller body mass, if you've made mistakes, or if the enclosure and equipment isn't already set up and at the right temperatures.
  • You won't find most of what you need to set up a tortoise at a pet store. What you will find is expensive stuff that is bad for your tortoise and lots of bad advice. This is true even at most reptile specialty places. Where to get tortoise supplies then? The hardware store or large department stores. There are a few exceptions like reptile thermostats, some reptile heating elements, and UV tubes. I get these from on-line sellers.
  • If you are going the the grocery store to buy tortoise food, you are feeding the wrong stuff. If you have no other choice but to use grocery store food due to your climate and weather for part of the year, it will need to be amended to make it more suitable as tortoise food. More on this later.
  • It is my hope that this care sheet finds you BEFORE you buy a tortoise. Most breeders start their babies too dry. The end result is stunting, pyramiding and sometimes death weeks or months later. Don't get a baby from someone who starts them dry, on dry substrate, outdoors all day, and doesn't soak daily.
  • Some common mistakes to avoid, with more explanation later: Buying from the wrong (dry) source, getting advice and products from a pet store, free roaming indoors or out, feeding a diet of mostly grocery store foods without amendments, not soaking daily, cool temps, wrong UV bulbs, wrong basking bulbs, letting dogs around your tortoise, small enclosures, open topped enclosures, sand or soil substrates, bad vet care or advice, too much outside time for little babies, keeping a pair of tortoises in the same enclosure...
Heating And Lighting:
I use a 45-65 watt incandescent flood bulb on a 12 hour timer and adjust the height of the fixture to get a basking area of around 95-100 directly under the bulb. In some closed chambers I go with lower wattage bulbs. This depends on many factors and no one can tell you exactly what wattage you will need in your enclosure. Let your thermometer be your guide. I use a ceramic heating element or a radiant heat panel set to 80 degrees on a reptile thermostat to maintain my ambient temperature in the enclosure. The basking lamp should raise the day time ambient temperature into the high 80s or low 90s. Ambient should be no lower than 80, but drifting up to 90 during the heat of the day is good. The thermostat will keep your CHE or RHP off during these times, but ready to click on after the basking lamp clicks off and the ambient temperature starts to drop at night. I use LED bulbs when I want to brighten up the whole enclosure and I run these on the same timer as the basking bulb. There are other ways to do some of this, but trial and error have shown time and time again, that the above is what works the best. Don't use "spot" bulbs, reptile specialty bulbs, halogen bulbs, any cfl, or mercury vapor bulbs. You want a plain old, regular incandescent flood bulb from the hardware store. I buy them in six or twelve packs, so I always have extras on hand. They always go out at the most inopportune times.

UV:
Tortoises need regular exposure to the right kind of UV rays in order to make vitamin D2 into D3 to be able to utilize dietary calcium. Real sunshine is best, but be careful. Shade should always be available as babies can overheat and die surprisingly quickly. If your tortoise can get some regular sunning time in a safe outdoor enclosure, even just a couple of times a week for most of the year, you don't need any artificial UV. Its okay if you have to skip two or three weeks of sunning time during a cold winter spell. If you live somewhere with long frozen winters, then some artificial UV might be in order for that time of year. I no longer recommend mercury vapor bulbs for several reasons, but florescent HO (High Output) UV tubes work very well according to my UV meter. CFL type UV bulbs are ineffective as UV sources and sometime burn reptile eyes. No type of compact florescent bulb should be used over a tortoise. Also get yourself a Solarmeter 6.5. Without a UV meter, you are guessing about the UV levels in your enclosure, no different than guessing the temperature without a thermometer. At least without a thermometer you can still feel the temperature with your hand. You can't feel UV levels. These meters pay for themselves in short order since you won't be replacing perfectly good working bulbs every six months, as the sellers recommend.

Too much outside time is bad for babies. It slows their growth tremendously and causes pyramiding. I've done many side-by-side experiments with clutch mates over the years to determine this fact. My general rule is an hour of access to sunshine per inch of tortoise. Once they reach around 5 inches, outside all day is fine, weather permitting, but soak daily and continue to let them sleep in their humid closed chamber every night until they get a bit bigger.

The Enclosure:
I have not been able to make any open topped enclosure work to my satisfaction. Low sided open topped enclosures like tortoise tables and sweater boxes are the worst. No amount of covering, or attempts to slow heat and humidity loss have worked well for me. There is just no way to keep the warm humid air where you want it. Closed chambers are the way to go. Maintaining whatever temperature and humidity you want is easy and efficient in a closed chamber. They use a lot less electricity because all of your heat and humidity is contained with nowhere to go. It also makes maintaining warm night temps a snap. Open tops allow all your warm humid air to escape up and into the room where your enclosure sits. Even if you cover most of the top, the heat lamps create a chimney effect and draw your heat and humidity up and out. Having the heat lamps outside, or on top of, the enclosure also lets the majority of the electrically generated heat you are creating float up up and away. A closed chamber contains all the heat and humidity. It works best if all the heating and lighting equipment is INSIDE the enclosure with the tortoise. Any other way is a compromise and less than ideal. Maintaining a small open topped box at 80 degrees with 80% humidity in a regular sized room that is 70 degrees and 20% humidity is VERY difficult, if not impossible in a practical sense. A closed chamber makes it easy.
Here are pictures of the plain basic closed chambers that I use to start babies:
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View attachment 291578
You can make it much more fancy and add plants and decorations if you want. I'm going for simplicity and I spend time making their outdoor enclosures more fantastic. When done correctly, your baby will only be in this enclosure for a year or two, and then it will be time to move outside full time with a heated night box, or get much larger indoor accommodations if this is what your climate dictates.

What if you already bought a glass tank or wooden tortoise enclosure? How can you make that one work? You really can't. Covering the top and trying to contain the heat and humidity is better than nothing, but the sooner you resign yourself to buying or building the right kind of enclosure, the sooner you and your tortoise will reap the benefits. Almost everyone gets bad info from the breeder, pet store, vets, and all over the internet. I'm sorry this happens and sorry you bought all the wrong stuff, but it helps no one when a person keeps trying to jam that square peg into a round hole. Think it over, take a deep breath, and just go get the correct stuff now that you know. I encourage people to return the items to the pet shop and tell them why. Eventually they will learn and stop selling dangerous, bad, and useless items to people.

You need to know, and periodically adjust your temperatures. You need to regularly check warm side, cool side, basking spot and night temps, and adjust as needed. Every enclosure is different and they even change with the seasons in most households. It is not enough to screw a bulb in and walk away. Check those temps, and make adjustments, preferably BEFORE the baby even comes home. I like to use an infrared temp gun AND digital thermometers for this purpose. Check your temps early and often.

Enclosure Size:
Simply put: The bigger the better. I start babies in a 30x48 inch closed chamber. As a minimum, I would suggest no smaller than 36"x18" for a tiny hatchling, but you'll need to upgrade quickly. They need room to roam around. Once you put in the food and water bowls, the humid hide, and any decorations or potted plants, there is hardly any room left over to walk. Tortoises do not tend to do as well as some other types of reptiles when stuffed into small enclosures. They need room to roam inside their safe heated enclosures, and the floor is not a safe option. Don't think that you'll use a smaller enclosure, and just let Sheldon out to roam the floor for some exercise. This almost always ends in disaster. Its bad for your tortoise and impaction, sickness, injury, or death is the usual result. "But, but, but... I make it safe and supervise closely..." says every person until the day that disaster eventually strikes and they realize they were wrong. Its a terrible sickening feeling to hold a dead tortoise in your hand. Don't put yourself through this. Make a large enclosure. Don't have room for a large enclosure? Get a different pet that can live in a smaller enclosure that you have room for. Tortoises aren't good pets for everyone. For a sulcata, even 4x8' is only going to last a year or two. You might get three years with it for a star, leopard or slower growing sulcata, but that is optimistic. Outdoor enclosures can be even larger. Babies will NOT get lost or overwhelmed in 10x10 foot enclosure. In the wild they roam far greater distances than that.

Humid Hide Boxes:
This offers the tortoise a more humid place to retreat to and sleep and can simulate some of the more damp micro-climates they might utilize in the wild. It is as simple as getting a $2 black dishwashing tub from Walmart, flipping it upside down and cutting out a small door hole. I keep the substrate under the tub more damp than the surrounding substrate and it works great. You can also use plastic shoe boxes. Sphagnum moss is unnecessary and potentially dangerous since they eat it, and it can cause an impaction. The humid hide is a very important detail that should not be overlooked. Half logs and flower pots on their sides do not work. They are not closed in enough.

Substrate:
There are only three viable options. Coco coir, orchid bark, and cypress mulch. All of these can be purchased in bulk at most hardware or garden center stores at a tremendous savings. I don't like coco coir for these species because its too messy. I don't like cypress mulch because the pieces aren't uniform, some pieces are too big or too sharp, and because it smells like the swamp that is came from. If these two are all you can find, then go ahead and use them. They are safe and suitable. Fine grade orchid bark works the best. Its cheap, easy, holds moisture well, doesn't stink, easy to clean, easy for babies to walk on, not an ingestion hazard, etc... I recommend against any store bought soil, "Pets At Home" reptile bedding with the little white limestone bits in it, wood shavings or chips, ground walnut shell, corn cob bedding, rabbit pellets, compressed grass pellet bedding, newspaper pellets, hay, cedar, or any amount of sand. None of those are safe or suitable for an indoor tortoise enclosure.

Water Dishes:
Plain old terra cotta plant saucers work best. They come in a variety of sizes to suit any size tortoise, they offer good traction to little wet tortoise feet, they have low sides, they are cheap so you can buy extras, and they are shallow so your tortoise won't drown if it happens to flip over and land upside down in the water bowl. Sink the bowl into the substrate for best results. I prefer to give babies two water bowls. Do NOT use the typical ramped pet store bowls. These are great for snakes and lizards, but they can literally be death traps for tortoises. Clean your terra cotta saucer as often as needed. The more they track food and substrate into it, and the more they poop in it, the better. This means they are comfortable using their bowl, and that is great news. Just rinse and refill as many times a day as you need to. A water bowl that stays clean and untouched all day is a water bowl that is not being used for one reason or another. This is a bad sign, and it means your tortoise is one step closer to dehydration.

Soaking:
I recommend ALL hatchlings of ALL species be soaked in 85-95 degree water for at least 20-30 minutes every day. I use a tall sided opaque tub and keep the water depth about a third to half way up the body. If you have a humid enclosure with a humid hide and a water bowl, it is totally fine to skip a day here and there. Soaking only once a week and using a dry enclosure is not enough in my opinion, and I would not buy a hatchling that had been started that way. Once the tortoise gets to about 100 grams, I start skipping a day now and then. I gradually taper it down as they gain size. How often I soak older tortoises depends on a lot of factors, the current weather and season being two big ones. I soak more often when its hot and dry. If you live in a warm, humid, rainy climate, and your tortoise is exposed to these conditions, soaking less often is probably fine, but it still wont hurt anything to do it. You cannot soak too much or for too long. Soaking does not do any harm whatsoever. It doesn't make them poop too much and not digest their food, it doesn't upset their "water balance", whatever that is, it doesn't give them shell rot or respiratory infections, and it is NOT unnatural in any way. "But, but, but... Who soaks them every day in nature???" These babies hatch at the start of the RAINY season in the wild. Its raining on them frequently, and puddles form all over the place. Keep the soak water warm for the entire soak. If you are in a hurry, 10 minutes is enough. If you are forgetful or get distracted, an hour will do no harm.

Feeding:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plants of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. Sulcatas and leopards grow a lot. This requires a tremendous amount of calcium assimilation over time. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.

Outdoor Enclosures:
This is a MUST in my opinion. Tortoises are solar powered, need lots of walking room, and benefit greatly from some time in the great outdoors. With hatchlings I start with short excursions of only an hour a day, followed by a soak on the way in. As they gain size, I like to leave them out longer and longer each day, weather permitting, until they eventually live outside full time with a heated night box of some sort, where climate allows. Outside time must be done with great care as there are many dangers. They can overheat, be eaten or mauled, or escape. Here is one simple idea. A large middle pool or horse watering trough could also work. If you don't have a suitable grassy area, you can put a plywood bottom on this with wheels and legs, and move it around. Do NOT let your baby roam free outside. You will lose it eventually, and you'll be unable to explain how it happened so fast when you were watching so carefully. Its a sickening feeling. Don't put yourself through this. Use an enclosure and make it large. Also, if you have a dog, or people who come to visit bring a dog, your tortoise is in grave danger. Be careful. EVERY dog will chew up a tortoise. It doesn't matter how nice and loving a dog it is. Tortoises are seen as chew toys by dogs. Don't let this happen to your tortoise. Physically prevent it with fencing and/or correct housing. Don't leave it to chance. It is a horrible sickening feeling holding a mauled tortoise in your hands. Don't put yourself through this.
View attachment 291579

Pyramiding:
This is the subject of many threads in itself. I will simply state here what I know to be true based on my experience, my experiments, conversations with people who live other countries and study tortoises, people who have kept them for decades here in the U.S., and personal observations of thousands of tortoises in all manners of keeping styles.

There are many things listed as causes of pyramiding. I can refute each one with multiple examples. Lack of UV, lack of calcium, too much protein, too much food, the wrong foods, fast growth, wrong temperatures, small enclosures, not enough exercise, indoor housing, etc. None of these factors CAUSES pyramiding. They can all be somehow related to it, but they don't cause it. Simply put: Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This is true for any species of tortoise, even the ones that don't typically pyramid. To prevent pyramiding I use a closed chamber and keep the ambient temperature 80 or higher all the time, I keep humidity at 80% or higher, I offer a humid hide that holds 95-100% humidity, I soak daily to ensure good hydration, and I spray the carapace with plain water several times a day. Sulcatas hatch during the African rainy season. It is hot, humid, rainy and marshy. It makes no sense to keep them in a dry box, with dry substrate, and a hot desiccating bulb overhead. Simulating this rainy season has grown me hundreds of smooth leopard and sulcata babies, as well as a few other species too. There are literally thousands of examples of other people succeeding using the same basic philosophy here on this forum. So please, don't keep sulcatas and leopards in desert-style enclosures. It is not healthy for them. They are not the least bit prone to shell rot, like some other species are, and they DO NOT get respiratory infections from high humidity as long as temps are 80 or higher everywhere in the enclosure, day and night. I don't say these things and come up with these assertions lightly. Its not that I raised one tortoise this way, and everything went okay. I have literally raised hundreds of tortoises of multiple species this way and had nothing but success. My methods and success rate have been repeated by thousands of tortoise keepers all over the globe. We have more than 10 years of living healthy examples to back up these assertions.

If you want to prevent pyramiding, simply do the above stuff.
View attachment 291580
View attachment 291581
View attachment 291582

Questions and conversation are welcome. The goal here is to help people to have happy, healthy, long lived tortoises and avoid some common mistakes.
Thanks
 

iddypiper

New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2023
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
southeast asia
Hi Tom & all,

Just got my Burmese star (named Mazzy after Mazzy Star the band), and unfortunately I realise I have under-planned the heating part of my outdoor enclosure as my area has been hit by a sudden rain season that brings temps a bit below the desirable range.

First, some details:
- 3" Burmese star that i was told is around 1.5 years old
- my climate is hot & humid all year round, with humidity between 60-95% (one of the most humid in the world I reckon!)
- temps are usually 78 - 91 F, which I believe is hot enough for the most part for an outdoor enclosure?
- night time / predawn temps do not go below 76 F at any point, which is the absolute lowest even in my sudden rainy season
- my outdoor enclosure is not fully exposed, & is under shelter (my patio/porch roof) ; it is however exposed to direct sunlight, air, some ambient rain brought by wind etc

So, my questions:
- how resilient is a tort of that age against short & slight temp dips, say 75 F for 1-2 hours during early morning showers?
How long can it tolerate such conditions before - ve effects like the respitory stuff sets in?
My CHE is only arriving early July, & if so, can I mitigate things by bringing the tort into a small mini-holding enclosure/pen indoors during the mornings and bring it out to it's regular enclosure once the morning heats up?
- I gather from the recent discussion above that even with my light-filled semi-outdoor enclosure, I'll still need a flood bulb heating element in addition to the CHE? Again, that will take some time for me to get, and I'm open to following any management approaches I need to adopt while waiting.

All this is a lot I know, and I'm annoyed that I was a little complacent with these parts of care tbh, but I'm really hoping my natural climate, which is very close to the torts burma, can handle my mistakes...
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Hi Tom & all,

Just got my Burmese star (named Mazzy after Mazzy Star the band), and unfortunately I realise I have under-planned the heating part of my outdoor enclosure as my area has been hit by a sudden rain season that brings temps a bit below the desirable range.

First, some details:
- 3" Burmese star that i was told is around 1.5 years old
- my climate is hot & humid all year round, with humidity between 60-95% (one of the most humid in the world I reckon!)
- temps are usually 78 - 91 F, which I believe is hot enough for the most part for an outdoor enclosure?
- night time / predawn temps do not go below 76 F at any point, which is the absolute lowest even in my sudden rainy season
- my outdoor enclosure is not fully exposed, & is under shelter (my patio/porch roof) ; it is however exposed to direct sunlight, air, some ambient rain brought by wind etc

So, my questions:
- how resilient is a tort of that age against short & slight temp dips, say 75 F for 1-2 hours during early morning showers?
How long can it tolerate such conditions before - ve effects like the respitory stuff sets in?
My CHE is only arriving early July, & if so, can I mitigate things by bringing the tort into a small mini-holding enclosure/pen indoors during the mornings and bring it out to it's regular enclosure once the morning heats up?
- I gather from the recent discussion above that even with my light-filled semi-outdoor enclosure, I'll still need a flood bulb heating element in addition to the CHE? Again, that will take some time for me to get, and I'm open to following any management approaches I need to adopt while waiting.

All this is a lot I know, and I'm annoyed that I was a little complacent with these parts of care tbh, but I'm really hoping my natural climate, which is very close to the torts burma, can handle my mistakes...
Ideally, even in your climate, babies should be raised indoors in a large closed chamber. This is what is best for them. Not a temporary holding pen, but a fully lit and properly set up closed chamber. Outdoors all day is not good for babies even in their native range. This applies here in the southwestern US to our desert tortoises, to sulcata babies in Africa, and to Asian tortoises in Asia too. Babies in the wild usually die, and they are not out and about exposed to the elements. They hide almost all the time. Your outdoor enclosure is great to use for a baby for a couple hours a day in nice weather.

As they grow, more and more outside time is great. Once they are nearing adult size, outside full-time is great, but they still need an insulated, temperature controlled shelter for night time, cooler weather, rainy days, and just to make them feel like they have a safe secure retreat. If the weather is warm outside, then the heating elements will simply remain off, as controlled by the thermostat, and they will use no electricity and generate no heat. But if a sudden rainy spell hits and the temperature drops below 80F, then your tortoise can go into its warm dry shelter. Don't forget to account for the effects of evaporative cooling when the ambient temp is 76 and it is wet from the rain. A human submerged in 76 degree water will die from hypothermia in a relative short amount of time. You would start shivering in minutes. The thermostat controlled heating elements in an insulated night box, will also stop the effects of evaporative cooling, and give your tortoise a dry place to be when the whole world is wet outside.
 

iddypiper

New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2023
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
southeast asia
Ideally, even in your climate, babies should be raised indoors in a large closed chamber. This is what is best for them. Not a temporary holding pen, but a fully lit and properly set up closed chamber. Outdoors all day is not good for babies even in their native range. This applies here in the southwestern US to our desert tortoises, to sulcata babies in Africa, and to Asian tortoises in Asia too. Babies in the wild usually die, and they are not out and about exposed to the elements. They hide almost all the time. Your outdoor enclosure is great to use for a baby for a couple hours a day in nice weather.

As they grow, more and more outside time is great. Once they are nearing adult size, outside full-time is great, but they still need an insulated, temperature controlled shelter for night time, cooler weather, rainy days, and just to make them feel like they have a safe secure retreat. If the weather is warm outside, then the heating elements will simply remain off, as controlled by the thermostat, and they will use no electricity and generate no heat. But if a sudden rainy spell hits and the temperature drops below 80F, then your tortoise can go into its warm dry shelter. Don't forget to account for the effects of evaporative cooling when the ambient temp is 76 and it is wet from the rain. A human submerged in 76 degree water will die from hypothermia in a relative short amount of time. You would start shivering in minutes. The thermostat controlled heating elements in an insulated night box, will also stop the effects of evaporative cooling, and give your tortoise a dry place to be when the whole world is wet outside.

Thanks - will have to begin working on the above then. What age/size range would be considered adult?
 

Thundersnow

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2021
Messages
188
Location (City and/or State)
Kentucky
I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species.

Babies hatch during the start of the rainy season. It is hot, very humid, rainy, and marshy in some areas. There are puddles and lush green growing food everywhere. In some areas there is a dry season, but the hot monsoon season is when babies hatch, and babies find humid microclimates to hide in during drier times. In extreme conditions they aestivate and don't eat or grow at all when its hot and dry. Keeping your hatchling in a dry, desert-like enclosure, is a big mistake and an invitation to disaster. It is also very un-natural for these animals. Damp substrate, a water bowl, and a humid hide should all be pre-requisites. Along with this, warm temps day and night are necessary. Sulcatas, leopards and stars are NOT prone to shell rot at all, and they do not get respiratory infections in these damp conditions as long as temps are kept up. I shoot for no lower than 80 degrees day or night year round, and all three of these heat loving species do well with a day time ambient approaching 90 degrees. Humidity is at 80+% all the time. Most people keep them too cool and too dry. Adults can tolerate colder temps and drier conditions in some circumstances, but this care sheet is for hatchlings and babies and is aimed at helping them thrive, not just survive. I know the books, the breeders and the "experts" all say the opposite of this. They are wrong. They've been wrong for 30 years. For 20 of those years I was wrong right along with them. Some of us have learned and advanced. Some have not. Keep this in mind when consulting a vet, or a potential breeder or seller that you want to buy from. As soon as they contradict this info and tell you "this is a desert species", you will know NOT to buy from them.

Some General Notes:
  • Set up your enclosure, run it, check it and make adjustments BEFORE you bring home a new tortoise. Babies are easy if the set up is correct. Babies aren't delicate or difficult. When babies are not started correctly is when people have problems with them. Babies have a smaller margin of error due to their smaller body mass, if you've made mistakes, or if the enclosure and equipment isn't already set up and at the right temperatures.
  • You won't find most of what you need to set up a tortoise at a pet store. What you will find is expensive stuff that is bad for your tortoise and lots of bad advice. This is true even at most reptile specialty places. Where to get tortoise supplies then? The hardware store or large department stores. There are a few exceptions like reptile thermostats, some reptile heating elements, and UV tubes. I get these from on-line sellers.
  • If you are going the the grocery store to buy tortoise food, you are feeding the wrong stuff. If you have no other choice but to use grocery store food due to your climate and weather for part of the year, it will need to be amended to make it more suitable as tortoise food. More on this later.
  • It is my hope that this care sheet finds you BEFORE you buy a tortoise. Most breeders start their babies too dry. The end result is stunting, pyramiding and sometimes death weeks or months later. Don't get a baby from someone who starts them dry, on dry substrate, outdoors all day, and doesn't soak daily.
  • Some common mistakes to avoid, with more explanation later: Buying from the wrong (dry) source, getting advice and products from a pet store, free roaming indoors or out, feeding a diet of mostly grocery store foods without amendments, not soaking daily, cool temps, wrong UV bulbs, wrong basking bulbs, letting dogs around your tortoise, small enclosures, open topped enclosures, sand or soil substrates, bad vet care or advice, too much outside time for little babies, keeping a pair of tortoises in the same enclosure...
Heating And Lighting:
I use a 45-65 watt incandescent flood bulb on a 12 hour timer and adjust the height of the fixture to get a basking area of around 95-100 directly under the bulb. In some closed chambers I go with lower wattage bulbs. This depends on many factors and no one can tell you exactly what wattage you will need in your enclosure. Let your thermometer be your guide. I use a ceramic heating element or a radiant heat panel set to 80 degrees on a reptile thermostat to maintain my ambient temperature in the enclosure. The basking lamp should raise the day time ambient temperature into the high 80s or low 90s. Ambient should be no lower than 80, but drifting up to 90 during the heat of the day is good. The thermostat will keep your CHE or RHP off during these times, but ready to click on after the basking lamp clicks off and the ambient temperature starts to drop at night. I use LED bulbs when I want to brighten up the whole enclosure and I run these on the same timer as the basking bulb. There are other ways to do some of this, but trial and error have shown time and time again, that the above is what works the best. Don't use "spot" bulbs, reptile specialty bulbs, halogen bulbs, any cfl, or mercury vapor bulbs. You want a plain old, regular incandescent flood bulb from the hardware store. I buy them in six or twelve packs, so I always have extras on hand. They always go out at the most inopportune times.

UV:
Tortoises need regular exposure to the right kind of UV rays in order to make vitamin D2 into D3 to be able to utilize dietary calcium. Real sunshine is best, but be careful. Shade should always be available as babies can overheat and die surprisingly quickly. If your tortoise can get some regular sunning time in a safe outdoor enclosure, even just a couple of times a week for most of the year, you don't need any artificial UV. Its okay if you have to skip two or three weeks of sunning time during a cold winter spell. If you live somewhere with long frozen winters, then some artificial UV might be in order for that time of year. I no longer recommend mercury vapor bulbs for several reasons, but florescent HO (High Output) UV tubes work very well according to my UV meter. CFL type UV bulbs are ineffective as UV sources and sometime burn reptile eyes. No type of compact florescent bulb should be used over a tortoise. Also get yourself a Solarmeter 6.5. Without a UV meter, you are guessing about the UV levels in your enclosure, no different than guessing the temperature without a thermometer. At least without a thermometer you can still feel the temperature with your hand. You can't feel UV levels. These meters pay for themselves in short order since you won't be replacing perfectly good working bulbs every six months, as the sellers recommend.

Too much outside time is bad for babies. It slows their growth tremendously and causes pyramiding. I've done many side-by-side experiments with clutch mates over the years to determine this fact. My general rule is an hour of access to sunshine per inch of tortoise. Once they reach around 5 inches, outside all day is fine, weather permitting, but soak daily and continue to let them sleep in their humid closed chamber every night until they get a bit bigger.

The Enclosure:
I have not been able to make any open topped enclosure work to my satisfaction. Low sided open topped enclosures like tortoise tables and sweater boxes are the worst. No amount of covering, or attempts to slow heat and humidity loss have worked well for me. There is just no way to keep the warm humid air where you want it. Closed chambers are the way to go. Maintaining whatever temperature and humidity you want is easy and efficient in a closed chamber. They use a lot less electricity because all of your heat and humidity is contained with nowhere to go. It also makes maintaining warm night temps a snap. Open tops allow all your warm humid air to escape up and into the room where your enclosure sits. Even if you cover most of the top, the heat lamps create a chimney effect and draw your heat and humidity up and out. Having the heat lamps outside, or on top of, the enclosure also lets the majority of the electrically generated heat you are creating float up up and away. A closed chamber contains all the heat and humidity. It works best if all the heating and lighting equipment is INSIDE the enclosure with the tortoise. Any other way is a compromise and less than ideal. Maintaining a small open topped box at 80 degrees with 80% humidity in a regular sized room that is 70 degrees and 20% humidity is VERY difficult, if not impossible in a practical sense. A closed chamber makes it easy.
Here are pictures of the plain basic closed chambers that I use to start babies:
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You can make it much more fancy and add plants and decorations if you want. I'm going for simplicity and I spend time making their outdoor enclosures more fantastic. When done correctly, your baby will only be in this enclosure for a year or two, and then it will be time to move outside full time with a heated night box, or get much larger indoor accommodations if this is what your climate dictates.

What if you already bought a glass tank or wooden tortoise enclosure? How can you make that one work? You really can't. Covering the top and trying to contain the heat and humidity is better than nothing, but the sooner you resign yourself to buying or building the right kind of enclosure, the sooner you and your tortoise will reap the benefits. Almost everyone gets bad info from the breeder, pet store, vets, and all over the internet. I'm sorry this happens and sorry you bought all the wrong stuff, but it helps no one when a person keeps trying to jam that square peg into a round hole. Think it over, take a deep breath, and just go get the correct stuff now that you know. I encourage people to return the items to the pet shop and tell them why. Eventually they will learn and stop selling dangerous, bad, and useless items to people.

You need to know, and periodically adjust your temperatures. You need to regularly check warm side, cool side, basking spot and night temps, and adjust as needed. Every enclosure is different and they even change with the seasons in most households. It is not enough to screw a bulb in and walk away. Check those temps, and make adjustments, preferably BEFORE the baby even comes home. I like to use an infrared temp gun AND digital thermometers for this purpose. Check your temps early and often.

Enclosure Size:
Simply put: The bigger the better. I start babies in a 30x48 inch closed chamber. As a minimum, I would suggest no smaller than 36"x18" for a tiny hatchling, but you'll need to upgrade quickly. They need room to roam around. Once you put in the food and water bowls, the humid hide, and any decorations or potted plants, there is hardly any room left over to walk. Tortoises do not tend to do as well as some other types of reptiles when stuffed into small enclosures. They need room to roam inside their safe heated enclosures, and the floor is not a safe option. Don't think that you'll use a smaller enclosure, and just let Sheldon out to roam the floor for some exercise. This almost always ends in disaster. Its bad for your tortoise and impaction, sickness, injury, or death is the usual result. "But, but, but... I make it safe and supervise closely..." says every person until the day that disaster eventually strikes and they realize they were wrong. Its a terrible sickening feeling to hold a dead tortoise in your hand. Don't put yourself through this. Make a large enclosure. Don't have room for a large enclosure? Get a different pet that can live in a smaller enclosure that you have room for. Tortoises aren't good pets for everyone. For a sulcata, even 4x8' is only going to last a year or two. You might get three years with it for a star, leopard or slower growing sulcata, but that is optimistic. Outdoor enclosures can be even larger. Babies will NOT get lost or overwhelmed in 10x10 foot enclosure. In the wild they roam far greater distances than that.

Humid Hide Boxes:
This offers the tortoise a more humid place to retreat to and sleep and can simulate some of the more damp micro-climates they might utilize in the wild. It is as simple as getting a $2 black dishwashing tub from Walmart, flipping it upside down and cutting out a small door hole. I keep the substrate under the tub more damp than the surrounding substrate and it works great. You can also use plastic shoe boxes. Sphagnum moss is unnecessary and potentially dangerous since they eat it, and it can cause an impaction. The humid hide is a very important detail that should not be overlooked. Half logs and flower pots on their sides do not work. They are not closed in enough.

Substrate:
There are only three viable options. Coco coir, orchid bark, and cypress mulch. All of these can be purchased in bulk at most hardware or garden center stores at a tremendous savings. I don't like coco coir for these species because its too messy. I don't like cypress mulch because the pieces aren't uniform, some pieces are too big or too sharp, and because it smells like the swamp that is came from. If these two are all you can find, then go ahead and use them. They are safe and suitable. Fine grade orchid bark works the best. Its cheap, easy, holds moisture well, doesn't stink, easy to clean, easy for babies to walk on, not an ingestion hazard, etc... I recommend against any store bought soil, "Pets At Home" reptile bedding with the little white limestone bits in it, wood shavings or chips, ground walnut shell, corn cob bedding, rabbit pellets, compressed grass pellet bedding, newspaper pellets, hay, cedar, or any amount of sand. None of those are safe or suitable for an indoor tortoise enclosure.

Water Dishes:
Plain old terra cotta plant saucers work best. They come in a variety of sizes to suit any size tortoise, they offer good traction to little wet tortoise feet, they have low sides, they are cheap so you can buy extras, and they are shallow so your tortoise won't drown if it happens to flip over and land upside down in the water bowl. Sink the bowl into the substrate for best results. I prefer to give babies two water bowls. Do NOT use the typical ramped pet store bowls. These are great for snakes and lizards, but they can literally be death traps for tortoises. Clean your terra cotta saucer as often as needed. The more they track food and substrate into it, and the more they poop in it, the better. This means they are comfortable using their bowl, and that is great news. Just rinse and refill as many times a day as you need to. A water bowl that stays clean and untouched all day is a water bowl that is not being used for one reason or another. This is a bad sign, and it means your tortoise is one step closer to dehydration.

Soaking:
I recommend ALL hatchlings of ALL species be soaked in 85-95 degree water for at least 20-30 minutes every day. I use a tall sided opaque tub and keep the water depth about a third to half way up the body. If you have a humid enclosure with a humid hide and a water bowl, it is totally fine to skip a day here and there. Soaking only once a week and using a dry enclosure is not enough in my opinion, and I would not buy a hatchling that had been started that way. Once the tortoise gets to about 100 grams, I start skipping a day now and then. I gradually taper it down as they gain size. How often I soak older tortoises depends on a lot of factors, the current weather and season being two big ones. I soak more often when its hot and dry. If you live in a warm, humid, rainy climate, and your tortoise is exposed to these conditions, soaking less often is probably fine, but it still wont hurt anything to do it. You cannot soak too much or for too long. Soaking does not do any harm whatsoever. It doesn't make them poop too much and not digest their food, it doesn't upset their "water balance", whatever that is, it doesn't give them shell rot or respiratory infections, and it is NOT unnatural in any way. "But, but, but... Who soaks them every day in nature???" These babies hatch at the start of the RAINY season in the wild. Its raining on them frequently, and puddles form all over the place. Keep the soak water warm for the entire soak. If you are in a hurry, 10 minutes is enough. If you are forgetful or get distracted, an hour will do no harm.

Feeding:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plants of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. Sulcatas and leopards grow a lot. This requires a tremendous amount of calcium assimilation over time. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.

Outdoor Enclosures:
This is a MUST in my opinion. Tortoises are solar powered, need lots of walking room, and benefit greatly from some time in the great outdoors. With hatchlings I start with short excursions of only an hour a day, followed by a soak on the way in. As they gain size, I like to leave them out longer and longer each day, weather permitting, until they eventually live outside full time with a heated night box of some sort, where climate allows. Outside time must be done with great care as there are many dangers. They can overheat, be eaten or mauled, or escape. Here is one simple idea. A large middle pool or horse watering trough could also work. If you don't have a suitable grassy area, you can put a plywood bottom on this with wheels and legs, and move it around. Do NOT let your baby roam free outside. You will lose it eventually, and you'll be unable to explain how it happened so fast when you were watching so carefully. Its a sickening feeling. Don't put yourself through this. Use an enclosure and make it large. Also, if you have a dog, or people who come to visit bring a dog, your tortoise is in grave danger. Be careful. EVERY dog will chew up a tortoise. It doesn't matter how nice and loving a dog it is. Tortoises are seen as chew toys by dogs. Don't let this happen to your tortoise. Physically prevent it with fencing and/or correct housing. Don't leave it to chance. It is a horrible sickening feeling holding a mauled tortoise in your hands. Don't put yourself through this.
View attachment 291579

Pyramiding:
This is the subject of many threads in itself. I will simply state here what I know to be true based on my experience, my experiments, conversations with people who live other countries and study tortoises, people who have kept them for decades here in the U.S., and personal observations of thousands of tortoises in all manners of keeping styles.

There are many things listed as causes of pyramiding. I can refute each one with multiple examples. Lack of UV, lack of calcium, too much protein, too much food, the wrong foods, fast growth, wrong temperatures, small enclosures, not enough exercise, indoor housing, etc. None of these factors CAUSES pyramiding. They can all be somehow related to it, but they don't cause it. Simply put: Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This is true for any species of tortoise, even the ones that don't typically pyramid. To prevent pyramiding I use a closed chamber and keep the ambient temperature 80 or higher all the time, I keep humidity at 80% or higher, I offer a humid hide that holds 95-100% humidity, I soak daily to ensure good hydration, and I spray the carapace with plain water several times a day. Sulcatas hatch during the African rainy season. It is hot, humid, rainy and marshy. It makes no sense to keep them in a dry box, with dry substrate, and a hot desiccating bulb overhead. Simulating this rainy season has grown me hundreds of smooth leopard and sulcata babies, as well as a few other species too. There are literally thousands of examples of other people succeeding using the same basic philosophy here on this forum. So please, don't keep sulcatas and leopards in desert-style enclosures. It is not healthy for them. They are not the least bit prone to shell rot, like some other species are, and they DO NOT get respiratory infections from high humidity as long as temps are 80 or higher everywhere in the enclosure, day and night. I don't say these things and come up with these assertions lightly. Its not that I raised one tortoise this way, and everything went okay. I have literally raised hundreds of tortoises of multiple species this way and had nothing but success. My methods and success rate have been repeated by thousands of tortoise keepers all over the globe. We have more than 10 years of living healthy examples to back up these assertions.

If you want to prevent pyramiding, simply do the above stuff.
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Questions and conversation are welcome. The goal here is to help people to have happy, healthy, long lived tortoises and avoid some common mistakes.
 

Thundersnow

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Ideally, even in your climate, babies should be raised indoors in a large closed chamber. This is what is best for them. Not a temporary holding pen, but a fully lit and properly set up closed chamber. Outdoors all day is not good for babies even in their native range. This applies here in the southwestern US to our desert tortoises, to sulcata babies in Africa, and to Asian tortoises in Asia too. Babies in the wild usually die, and they are not out and about exposed to the elements. They hide almost all the time. Your outdoor enclosure is great to use for a baby for a couple hours a day in nice weather.

As they grow, more and more outside time is great. Once they are nearing adult size, outside full-time is great, but they still need an insulated, temperature controlled shelter for night time, cooler weather, rainy days, and just to make them feel like they have a safe secure retreat. If the weather is warm outside, then the heating elements will simply remain off, as controlled by the thermostat, and they will use no electricity and generate no heat. But if a sudden rainy spell hits and the temperature drops below 80F, then your tortoise can go into its warm dry shelter. Don't forget to account for the effects of evaporative cooling when the ambient temp is 76 and it is wet from the rain. A human submerged in 76 degree water will die from hypothermia in a relative short amount of time. You would start shivering in minutes. The thermostat controlled heating elements in an insulated night box, will also stop the effects of evaporative cooling, and give your tortoise a dry place to be when the whole world is wet outside.
@Tom I am 100% positive if I didn’t listen to you and read your research my Squirt would have died long ago. You are the best❤️🐢
 

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ells

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Hi tom, I’ve heard some mixed reviews about Repashy for tortoises. I have used it for my bearded dragon and he loves it and it’s proven good for them but I’ve heard some very mixed information about it for torts and I was just wondering if you had an opinion on it before I try to feed it to my picky Leopard tort
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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Hi tom, I’ve heard some mixed reviews about Repashy for tortoises. I have used it for my bearded dragon and he loves it and it’s proven good for them but I’ve heard some very mixed information about it for torts and I was just wondering if you had an opinion on it before I try to feed it to my picky Leopard tort
Which Repashy product are you referring to? A supplement, or a food?

I've been told that their supplements are too high in vitamin A for tortoises and can cause problems. I don't have experience with anything of theirs, so hopefully someone with more Repashy knowledge all see this and answer.
 

ells

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Joined
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
New Jersey
Which Repashy product are you referring to? A supplement, or a food?

I've been told that their supplements are too high in vitamin A for tortoises and can cause problems. I don't have experience with anything of theirs, so hopefully someone with more Repashy knowledge all see this and answer.
IMG_0873.jpeg
This is what a friend sent me but I want to make sure it’s ok for my Pico before I feed it to them
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
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Joined
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Messages
63,269
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This is what a friend sent me but I want to make sure it’s ok for my Pico before I feed it to them
Sorry. This is outside my lane. I have no experience with that sort of thing.
 

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