The Different Races of Redfoot Tortoise

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elegans

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I have yet to see a red foot that was from South of the Amazon Basin that looked anything like a Northern. So I will buy that when I see it. I have seen thousands of red foots with their import documents pass through Miami in the last 22 years. Yellow phase really? Where and when? Best to all as always Douglas
 

Madkins007

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elegans said:
I have yet to see a red foot that was from South of the Amazon Basin that looked anything like a Northern. So I will buy that when I see it. I have seen thousands of red foots with their import documents pass through Miami in the last 22 years. Yellow phase really? Where and when? Best to all as always Douglas

In Vinke and Vetter's "South American Tortoises", you would see examples of what some authors might describe as yellow-phase (as opposed to red-phased) Red-foots from Brazil on p. 69 bottom, 73 left, and 134. The term seems to be used for those from Brazil that look most like Northerners, except for the plastron.

As for the torts passing through Miami, do you think they represent a fair sample of all habitats? Wouldn't they mostly be from places they are easily and profitably farmed or harvested?
 

HLogic

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Sorry about chiming in a little late but ya gotta start somewhere - new here; forgive any transgression...

Matt, the little one in the top picture and the two young ones, assuming they were acquired near the time of the date on the photo, are almost certainly Colombian from the Santa Marta area. There was 'large' shipment; one of the very few from Colombia in a while around April-May 2009. The large one in the top pic is also likely from the same region based on the head & plastral patterning.

The second tort appears to be of the western Colombian, eastern Venezuela, Panama group, however, there are similar animals on Barbados.
Just a best guess...

Douglas, I know of 'yellow phase' redfoots from the Santa Marta region of Columbia, Panama and Barbados. Not a speck of red (anerythristic?) on them. I'm sure that there are other one-offs from other areas as well but these areas seem to have a phenotype of that nature.
 

HLogic

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As far as representing all habitats, the vast majority of imports are from Suriname & Guyana (wild caught), Venezuela, Brazil & Columbia (farmed).

To the best of my knowledge none are exported from Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina, Panama, the Caribbean islands (Trinidad, Barbuda, Barbados, etc.) except for individual efforts of very small numbers.
 

Alithany

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Just received this little one. Any ideas? It's about 5 inches in length by 4inches in width.
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And if anyone knew whether this is a male or female--or if it's old enough to tell...that would be greatly appreciated! I've had it for two days now and it bobs its head at me. :)
 

Itort

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Chris Isom said:
ok so now i have a question what exactly are the differences between a red foot and yellow foot?? are they basically the same just with different coloration?? or just from different regions? habitat and personality wise are they basically the same??
They are different species. The most obvious difference at first is the redfoot has a solid scale on the nose while the yellowfoot has a split scale on the nose. They do share range in some regions with the yellowfoot inhabiting denser damper forest than the redfoot which prefers a more open savanna like habitat. That said they will share common areas and this where recognition behaviours come into play (there are apparently no hybrids in the wild). Personality wise my yellowfoot is basically the same as my redfoots.
 

PeanutbuttER

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Does anybody happen to know what the differences are between the Caribbean redfoots and the "mainland" reds? I'm guessing they'll be of a different race, though it doesn't seem like they've entered the pet trade in any high numbers. I've recently seen some from grenada popping up for sale on various websites and I don't know enough about them to say what makes them any different, or to even verify if they are from the Caribbean.
 

Madkins007

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PeanutbuttER said:
Does anybody happen to know what the differences are between the Caribbean redfoots and the "mainland" reds? I'm guessing they'll be of a different race, though it doesn't seem like they've entered the pet trade in any high numbers. I've recently seen some from grenada popping up for sale on various websites and I don't know enough about them to say what makes them any different, or to even verify if they are from the Caribbean.

In general, the island forms are smaller and bumpier. I personally don't think they show enough difference from the mainland or between islands to qualify as different species... yet. We can check back in a few thousand years.
 

Shelli

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Can you explain Bumpier?
My girl who is Caribbean has slightly bumpy scutes especially her back 3 she is very small too!
She was kept in a carboard box with pine shavings and then corn cob bedding at the place I got her also fed mainly carrots and 'you can feed her anything'...
Humidity was always good it was very hot in there and you would break a sweat as soon as step in the place...
She was in there for about a month and her prior life could have been roaming around in a yard....but i'm not certain.
There are so many on the island!
Jaba is getting tip top care now so I don't expect any progress on this bumpiness I must say the ones I've seen in people's yards have looked VERY SMOOTH and healthy as horses.. not overweight or underweight.
 

Madkins007

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This is based on what others have written and said- we are finding more and more that smooth Red-foot shells depend on the shells not drying out during the periods of most rapid growth, and in most of their natural habitat, things are not only humid, but hides, etc. are very damp as well.

On some of the islands they are found, they do not seem to have quite damp or humid enough conditions, so they are more often found with at least some pyramiding or bumpiness. I did not intend my comment to mean they are always smaller or bumpier, but I was in a hurry and did not edit it well.

Of course, when people try to raise them on things like pine shavings or corn cob, that will tend to dry them out even more, and can cause the bumpiness itself.
 

PeanutbuttER

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From what I remember, Jaba also has a very striking plastron pattern, which I believe is unique. I don't know if that's a caribbean wide feature, or if Jaba is in fact unique, or what. Shelli, could you post a picture of Jaba's plastron?

If they're not a unique line of redfoots, then do we have any indication about which type they came from? Or are the island ones a mixed bag of all of them?
 

Shelli

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Peanut... Jaba's plastron (last picture)

Mark, I was only saying she was small because she is small to have bumps.. :( Not meaning you were saying Carib Torts are small...
Here are the pictures of the redfoots in the yard,, I have been introduced to the owner but I didnt' realize it was the owner until conversation later grrrrrr.
We are also moving back down to the more touristy area of Antigua.. so I wont get to see the redfoot beauties anymore..
I will definitely try and linger outside the ladies house some before I move and hopefully turn a few over (although they are mighty big).. lol..

Ok here are the yard ones.... see how they only have little yellow on the tops of scutes as does Jaba..
IMG_7901-vi.jpg


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Jaba's Plastron
It has that upturned portion where her legs are not sure if it's a deformity, normal, or a previous care issue...
Sorry she's a bit mad in the pic doesnt' like being turned upside down much...
IMG_8269-vi.jpg
 

scooter27

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My red foot has red spots on his limbs, but yellow spots on his head. Any ideas as to which he is? I'm pretty sure he's a north eastern, but the yellow spots on his head confuse me...
 

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This is an amazing thread..... I have so many questions about regions and variations in my redfoots and there origins.
I hope someone may have some insight into where my guys may have come from???
I was told that northerns have a yellow plastron and Ive had adults with no black at all.... but the ones I have now all have black but no red on thier heads???
#1 female 8" shell
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#2 male 7" shell
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#3 female (i think) 6" shell (this one was sold as a marbled brazilian cherryhead)
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Madkins007

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The third one is easy- it is a Brazilian, or 'Cherry-head', and appears to be a female at this point, but may also be too small to tell for sure yet.

The middle one is also easy- a Northern, from somewhere west of central Venezuela to French Guiana, and looks to me like another girl- although again may be too small to be 100% sure.

I would call the top one a Northern female as well with a somewhat darker than usual plastron.

Anyone else have a thought?

(I also need to clean up this thread based on some new DNA information. You can see the ideas at http://tortoiselibrary.com/races.html and a map at http://tortoiselibrary.com/range.html
 

Hustler

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That is AWESOME mate :) Thank you ever so much.... Im always trying to figure out specifics and all i come up with is "there are no sub species"
#2 i figured was a male as in the pic of it over the sink i believe a hemipien poped out? also starting to hourglass a bit and concave plastron.... and he has a wider rear gap where the tail goes. But reading more on this forum it seems none of this may actuall matter lol
 

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Could the top one be a mix? What do the cherry/northern crosses look like?
 

Madkins007

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EVERYONE: I updated the original post in this thread to include new DNA research. It is not a big change, but I think it makes things more accurate.

BALBOA: Could be, but I'd like to hear what others who have seen lots of Red-foots think.
 
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