the ZooMed pellet challenge

[Kapidolo Farms]

So, someone on one of the threads regarding ZooMed Grassland diet sought more specific information about the nutritional content of that diet item. Tom suggested, why not just ask – I did. Following is the whole transcript of that exchange.

I have removed my personal contact info from the submitted information request.

****************************************************

Me to ZooMed:
1:09 PM (20 hours ago)
Hi, 

Do you have - will share a proximate analysis of Grassland or the Forest tortoise diet?

Even a one lot production would give me something to work with.

Will Espenshade
omitted phone number

omitted street address
San Diego,  CA  92126


ZooMed to Me:

Jennifer Shamblin <JShamblinATzoomed.com>

1:57 PM (19 hours ago)

to me

Hello Will,
                Thank you for contacting us. I’ve pasted into the email what is available for the Grassland Tortoise food.
Suncured Oat Hay, Suncured Timothy Hay, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Whole Ground Wheat, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Yeast Culture, Dandelion Greens (dried), Sodium Bicarbonate, Soy Lecithin, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (heat stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Enterococcus faecium, Aspergillus oryzae), Yeast Extract, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Cassia Extract (Chinese), Ginger Extract, Horseradish Extract, Juniper Extract, Natural Flavoring, Marigold (petal extract), Yucca schidigera (whole plant powder), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Zinc Methionine Complex, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement (Retinyl Acetate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.
Crude Protein (Min) 9.0%Crude Fat (Min) 2.0%Crude Fiber (Max) 26.0%Moisture (Max) 13.0%Ash (Max) 10.0%Calcium (Min) 0.9%Calcium (Max) 1.3%Phosphorus (Min) 0.4%Sodium (Max) 0.3%
Please let me know if you have any further questions.
 
Kind Regards,
Jennifer Shamblin
Customer Service

Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc.
3650 Sacramento Drive
San Luis Obispo, CA 93401
888-496-6633 - Toll Free
805-542-9988 - Direct 
805-542-9295 - Fax
www.zoomed.com
 


Me to ZooMed


William Espenshade <william.espenshadeiiiATgmail.com>

3:41 PM (18 hours ago)

to Jennifer

Hi Jennifer,

Thanks, I have bought the grassland and use it.

What I'm looking for is not the label content, or list of ingredients.  I have that on the bottle.

But look at your ingredients, you list for example vitamin E supplement, so what is the analysis of that addition, how much is there.

My idea of a proximate analysis includes 
Water
Carbohydrates
Proteins  (how much of each amino acid)
Dietary fibres
Fatty acids
Ash
Vitamins  (like the vitamin E)
Dietary minerals

You see, I can't believe you all added vitamin E willy-nilly without knowing how much, right?

I am a biologist with food chemistry background, as well as herpetology.  I would like a full proximate analysis to understand why just sprinkling some un-quantified amount of vitamin mineral powder is not better.

Will


ZooMed to Me:


Jennifer Shamblin

9:40 AM (19 minutes ago)

to me

Hello Will,
                This is the guaranteed analysis we have for the Tortoise food.
Crude Protein (Min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (Min) 2.0%
Crude Fiber (Max) 26.0%
Moisture (Max) 13.0%
Ash (Max) 10.0%
Calcium (Min) 0.9%
Calcium (Max) 1.3%
Phosphorus (Min) 0.4%
Sodium (Max) 0.3%
 
Kind Regards,
Jennifer Shamblin
Customer Service

Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc.
3650 Sacramento Drive
San Luis Obispo, CA 93401
888-496-6633 - Toll Free
805-542-9988 - Direct 
805-542-9295 - Fax
www.zoomed.com
 
**********************************************

My TFO narrative again

I do not know what to make of this. If any of you work in a lab that can do all or most of a proximate analysis. I'll put some $$ for it to be done, maybe someone else would care to contribute, and we can post the 'as bought' at a retail location proximate analysis here. Declared for the lot used in the analysis we are on solid ground to post findings in a public venue.

Of course ZooMed pays for advertising here, don't know what to make of that either.

Let's do some science here, and less debate about it!

Will

 

[Spn785]

I would be willing to donate some money to that. I was planning on buying some of this, but with their reaction to your query I have second thoughts.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Well done Will. I think though, that Jennifer is unfortunately the wrong contact person in that I believe she thought she was giving you the information you requested yet obviously couldn't. Maybe you could contact Geovani at the bean farm and ask him to contact the sales manager who maybe better able to gather this information from the proper department. I figure with the Beanfarm being a retail outlet for them it may carry more weight than a single user.

---

It again I commend you for picking this up.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Well put Ken, I will follow up on your suggestion. At the most recent LA (Pomona) Reptile SuperShow I chatted up one of the ZooMed people there, and they suggested the route I took.

I guess there are two messages in one. "You never really know who you are talking to" and "Don't pacify with the easy answer" as it's now public.

I'll connect the BeanFarm people to this Thread. I know I over estimate peoples' tolerance to read more than a sentence or two. But that won't change much on either front. Sometimes a thought is bigger than ten words, or at least my ability to reduce it to that few.

Will

 

[lynnedit]

Thank you, Will, for looking into this.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The info request to the BeanFarm

*********************************************************************

Hi,

It was suggested I contact you folks on a quest for information about the ZooMed Grassland Diet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-611010.html#pid611010

Is a transcript of that quest so far.

In short terms - I would like a proximate analysis of the ZooMed Grassland and/or Forest Tortoise diets.

My initial inquiry to ZooMed has returned with a product label only disclosure. This current e-mail is my followup with your company, a commercial buyer, and not a lone customer of ZooMed.

Please read the thread with the URL above.

Thank you much.

Will Espenshade

********************************************************************************

When I hit the submit button I got "Your enquiry has been successfully sent to the Store Owner."

So, lets see what happens.

Will

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It turns out, Ken, that the BeanFarm does not sell any ZooMed tortoise foods at all <http://beanfarm.com/index.php?cPath=1283>.

I spoke with one person there who was remote to their customer service e-mail. That person said they would follow-up with me. Another person (not who I spoke with on the Phone) did respond. Those responses were not informative to the goal - a proximate analysis of the diets.

So Ken got a 'shout out' for the BeanFarm, good for you both. Maybe the Bean Farm will be able to get some sort of response that Jennifer from ZooMed did not provide. Maybe not, but as they don't sell the item, I would have to consider any follow-up from the Bean Farm extreme kindness.

Alternatively, towards the goal (proximate analysis) I will inquire via the TSA who actually has there logo on the bottle. I'll keep you posted.

Will

---

The TSA inquiry, lets hope!!

**********************************

William Espenshade <william.espenshadeiiiATgmail.com>
2:44 PM (1 minute ago)

to hlowe
Hi Heather,

I am inquiring with you the following interest, as your contact info is on the webpage for the TSA.

I see that the TSA endorses the use of the ZooMed Grassland diet by virtue of your logo being on their label. I use and like it.

I have an interest to get a proximate analysis for this diet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-64528.html is an online forum thread describing the nature of my interest, and the result so far.

I will post a copy of this e-mail on that thread as well as your/TSA's response.

I have to consider that the association between the diet and the TSA is founded on some nutrition based science. I am aware that the many species specific needs may not be known, but we ought to know what we are feeding.

Does the TSA have a proximate analysis for ZooMed Grassland diet? Can that be shared? Would you please see if such information is available from ZooMed?

My direct effort failed.

Will Espenshade

******************************************

Will

 

[tortadise]

If your inquires keep coming to a failure I can see what my moms lab can do in terms of analyzing this product. Maybe if that lab can do so. We could do a comparative analysis of each commercial diet, while we are on the track of analysis. I will see what they are set up to do in these realms.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Kelly,
That would so kick…

 

[tortadise]

Well I am on it. If they fail, I could see if the Biology department at A&M could help me out. i doubt they have the technology though. Been using them for a lot of articles and research for tortoises recently. Whats another lab test for them. Ha


The answer will have to wait till the am though. I don't want to call and wake my mom at this hour. So stay tuned.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Read the forward <http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/documents/publications/bulletins/b956.pdf>.

They do not analyse the ZooMed Tortoise food.

But it is indicated that Connecticut has laws about feed quality and it is based on the Association of the American Feed Control Officials <http://www.aafco.org/>.



Will

---

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/FDAVeterinarianNewsletter/ucm130726.htm

Probably to much reading, but this is a good, bit old, summary of the rules of pet food labeling.

My favorite quote from this article "They will not tell you how much liver, for example, is in their product, because that's part of their proprietary formula. But they should tell you how much of any nutrient is in the product." as it relates to dog food.

Will

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Here I was thinking it would only pertain to animals deemed as livestock. For instance, my insurance company sees a huge difference between my horses as pets or as livestock. Apparently you don't make money from pets, so they have no value. Livestock on the other hand has value because you breed them to pass the young off either for money or whatever.

 

[Spn785]

If your inquires keep coming to a failure I can see what my moms lab can do in terms of analyzing this product. Maybe if that lab can do so. We could do a comparative analysis of each commercial diet, while we are on the track of analysis. I will see what they are set up to do in these realms.

That is an Awesome suggestion!

 

[Thalatte]

Here I was thinking it would only pertain to animals deemed as livestock. For instance, my insurance company sees a huge difference between my horses as pets or as livestock. Apparently you don't make money from pets, so they have no value. Livestock on the other hand has value because you breed them to pass the young off either for money or whatever.

Does this mean my worms, roaches, and mice are livestock?
Wonder what my insurance company would say about covering 5k roaches?

---

I would like to know the information on the repcal tortoise diet. It is what one tort I have has eaten his entire life and it smells sickeningly sweet. I have a feeling its high in fruit and low in grasses.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I found several analytical labs that for a fee will identify most macro and micro nutrients. It seems to me that if the TSA has there name on the bottle of the ZooMed products they might be prompted to pay for that, but then they would own the result and no guarantee it would be made public. States that have stricter label and content laws may be prompted to do the analysis for their own state compliance and those would be public (tax payer $$). Some Ag extension offices may do it if they deem it to be within their scope of interest. An independent lab that will put their name on the result such as the Ag extension or state labs puts a level of authority on the result, that a 'backdoor' route would lack.

Mazuri, ZooMed, and the others are all mail order, so they are in effect sold in every state. Some bit more leg work, and I'll see what the best result may be in terms of low $$ resource needs, and a credible independent result.

It seems to me wholly irresponsible that the added nutrients to not been quantified. I understand all that not fitting on a label, but the vendor webpage should show they periodically do their own audit of the manufacture who puts a product in a bottle with the vendors name on it.

It further seems that if a large member organization has an association such that their logo is on the bottle, they too - that member organization, would want some assurance of the quality of the product that is not a preponderance of anecdote, but actual analysis.

I have some time today to reach out to some labs and get some idea of costs, or potential public service analysis. If the cost is simply providing the sample, I'll cover that, and post the result here, or a link to the lab, if they require control of result via their webpage/publication.

Will

 

[theTurtleRoom]

Will...let me get this for you. I've got a contact there. May take a month, but I can get it. They specifically assigned an employee to find exact amounts for me in their aquatic foods.

...and noone will have to pay anything!

EDIT: sent the email to my contact. Hopefully I hear again soon.

 

[Spn785]

I agree with you completely Will. Hope to hear about cost of this soon.

 

[Thalatte]

I can provide samples and some money towards the repcal products if that is needed.
Thank you for doing all this!

 

[theTurtleRoom]

Something I should add to this (and why I've gone through ZooMed instead of trying to find someone to do the study for me): the sample size required to get quality statistics will make the cost for accurate data quite high. To properly estimate the nutrients, there should be 1 25# bag pulled from each of (at least) 30 different production lots (60 would be even better). Then the analysis would have to be performed and then you take the data received and calculate the proper statistics.

Like I said above - I've gotten thorough information through ZooMed on their aquatic turtle foods (specifically Vitamin E, D3, and A, C). I'll have them do the same for the Tortoise Foods and then post the information.

(The Math Grad Student in me just had to make sure this was mentioned)

 

[Thalatte]

Oh wow didn't hink of using such large samples...that changes what I can do. I can provide some money towards it then.