Oh I thought if I kept him warm that he would come out in the morning and graze still, he won't? Do they stop eating all together?
To Hibernate or not to Hibernate? (Everyone's thoughts please)
- Thread starter Candy
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Is there a chart or reference source available to even know if one's tortoise species is supposed to hibernate?
I've never seen a definitive answer to this question for Chaco tortoises...maybe Danny knows?
Would there be a potential for harm to the tortoise's "natural" instincts if you do NOT hibernate them? Otherwise, I would think a tortoise keeper could just make that decision for themselves (personally I agree with Maggie's thinking on this issue
).
I've never seen a definitive answer to this question for Chaco tortoises...maybe Danny knows?
Would there be a potential for harm to the tortoise's "natural" instincts if you do NOT hibernate them? Otherwise, I would think a tortoise keeper could just make that decision for themselves (personally I agree with Maggie's thinking on this issue
).
Candy said:
You need to either be natural or provide heat. If you're going to provide heat, then you'll have to keep him warm and up all winter. If you want him to hibernate, then when the weather warms up in the spring, you remove the lights and heat and let him become acclimated to the natural weather patterns. In Southern California, you are close to Fernando's natural range. The weather is probably great with no additional heat and lights provided. If you've been heating his house all this time, then I would say you need to continue that and keep him up this winter. Personally, I would allow the desert tortoises to experience natural weather as much as is possible with no intervention, especially in our milder climates.
Ugh... I typed a big response to this a couple of nights ago and it appears to have gotten lost in cyberspace. Oh well. I'll try again.
They usually do their best to keep the bears up, but it doesn't work too well sometimes. They get grumpy and lose their appetite. Both of those things are bad on a movie set. They just get through it somehow.
Here's what I do for hibernating a tortoise: If I know I'm going to do it, I feed them up all spring and summer to build up fat reserves. Toward the end of summer, I start soaking them more often for hydration and reducing the light cycle little by little on the timer. Its usually turns cold here right around or soon after Halloween. So right around then I'll stop feeding for two weeks, leave the lights on for 8 hours a day and soak them once or twice a day. This helps get all the food out of them for hibernation. At this time night temps are already dropping and with the shortening days, they usually try to snuggle up somewhere and go to sleep on their own. I wake them up for their soaks and basking for at least two weeks. Then, when they are good and ready and their gut is empty, I put them in a dry cooler with sani-chips on the bottom and cover them with dead, dry leaves. I put a temp probe in there and shut the lid, but leave a small tube propped in the lid opening for some air. I leave the cooler in my garage which stays right around 55 all winter long. The cooler keeps the temps pretty stable even if we have some warm days or freezing nights. I used to use an old, unplugged fridge laid on its back when I had a bunch to hibernate. When the weather starts to consistently warm up in late March or April, I open the lid and remove most of the leaves, so they can warm up a little and see some light. After a day or two of this, or when I notice them stirring, I start giving them room temp soaks every day and move them back into their enclosure, but with the lights still off for a few days. When they seem ready, I turn the basking lights back on and gradually warm the soaking water every day. When they seem active enough and ready, I'll offer them a small amount of food and off we go. It usually takes two or three weeks for them to get all the way "back up to speed". I'm leaving out a million details and this is all by "feel", but that's the gist. I like to keep them between 50 and 60 during hibernation.
I'd like to relate the last time I hibernated something outdoors "naturally". Its pretty similar to some of the stories above. I bought 3 baby Black and White Tegu hatchlings from Bert at Agama International, in early September. Per Bert's instructions, I hibernated them in October, using my usual indoor method. I was very nervous about hibernating such little babies, but he explained that that's how it needs to be done. They made it through their first winter with no problems whatsoever. They lived indoors, but had an outdoor enclosure for nice weather. The next fall I hibernated them indoors again. They were nearly full size now. When Spring came around and the weather warmed up, I woke them up and moved them outdoors permanently once they were "up and running". Bert had shown me pics of his outdoor enclosures in Alabama all covered over with snow, while his breeding stock was all asleep and dug in under the snow. I decided to let mine hibernate "naturally" outdoors, they way Bert had been hibernating their parents. I figured they'd be fine, since it doesn't get nearly that cold here. Everything went well at first. In January we had a typical warm spell, like we often do here in Southern CA. Temps got into the 80's for a couple of weeks. When they first went under they dug in pretty deep under their cave and plugged up the entrance. I covered the whole area with dead leaves and a sheet of plastic to keep the rain out. During the warm spell they dug themselves up and came out to see the warm weather. Well winter wasn't done. They went back in their cave and covered the door like they do every night in the spring and summer, but they didn't dig back in. They just stayed above ground. When the night temps dropped below freezing again, the two on top died. I found them that way and the third one, who was down in the hole a bit and under the other two, was barely alive and in a bad way. I was able to save him, but it was very tentative for a few weeks. I really didn't think he would make it, but he did. I gave him to another breeder. That was the year they would have woken up and given me eggs. Ever heard a grown man bawl his eyes out like a baby? Its not pretty. The neighbors thought somebody died. SOMEBODY DID! My ignorance and inexperience killed them. One could easily argue, it was stupidity. They had to die for me to learn better. All I had to do was bring them in and hibernate them the way I had the first two years and they would still be here along with a couple hundred babies by now. It was a 50 foot walk from the pen to the garage. I've had lots of hit or miss gambles like the stories related in the above posts, but these were babies that I had raised and cared for every day with my own hands. They were magnificent animals and everyone who sat in my outdoor pen with me was in awe of them.
There is just no reason and no justification to hibernate animals that you care about "naturally" outdoors. There are too many variables and too many things that can go wrong. I think they do need to hibernate, but it should be done indoors under controlled and monitored conditions. Why risk it? Why not just do it indoors, where you know it will be fine? Can they survive it outdoors? Well, yes, most of the time they do. But why settle for "most of the time" when you can be sure ALL of the time, if its done right indoors. They get the same benefit of outdoor hibernation without any of the risk.
To me its like walking around a bad neighborhood with a big wad of cash in your hand. You might make it through without getting mugged, but why risk it? What's the benefit? Put your money away and stay out of the bad neighborhood, for cryin' out loud.
They usually do their best to keep the bears up, but it doesn't work too well sometimes. They get grumpy and lose their appetite. Both of those things are bad on a movie set. They just get through it somehow.
Here's what I do for hibernating a tortoise: If I know I'm going to do it, I feed them up all spring and summer to build up fat reserves. Toward the end of summer, I start soaking them more often for hydration and reducing the light cycle little by little on the timer. Its usually turns cold here right around or soon after Halloween. So right around then I'll stop feeding for two weeks, leave the lights on for 8 hours a day and soak them once or twice a day. This helps get all the food out of them for hibernation. At this time night temps are already dropping and with the shortening days, they usually try to snuggle up somewhere and go to sleep on their own. I wake them up for their soaks and basking for at least two weeks. Then, when they are good and ready and their gut is empty, I put them in a dry cooler with sani-chips on the bottom and cover them with dead, dry leaves. I put a temp probe in there and shut the lid, but leave a small tube propped in the lid opening for some air. I leave the cooler in my garage which stays right around 55 all winter long. The cooler keeps the temps pretty stable even if we have some warm days or freezing nights. I used to use an old, unplugged fridge laid on its back when I had a bunch to hibernate. When the weather starts to consistently warm up in late March or April, I open the lid and remove most of the leaves, so they can warm up a little and see some light. After a day or two of this, or when I notice them stirring, I start giving them room temp soaks every day and move them back into their enclosure, but with the lights still off for a few days. When they seem ready, I turn the basking lights back on and gradually warm the soaking water every day. When they seem active enough and ready, I'll offer them a small amount of food and off we go. It usually takes two or three weeks for them to get all the way "back up to speed". I'm leaving out a million details and this is all by "feel", but that's the gist. I like to keep them between 50 and 60 during hibernation.
I'd like to relate the last time I hibernated something outdoors "naturally". Its pretty similar to some of the stories above. I bought 3 baby Black and White Tegu hatchlings from Bert at Agama International, in early September. Per Bert's instructions, I hibernated them in October, using my usual indoor method. I was very nervous about hibernating such little babies, but he explained that that's how it needs to be done. They made it through their first winter with no problems whatsoever. They lived indoors, but had an outdoor enclosure for nice weather. The next fall I hibernated them indoors again. They were nearly full size now. When Spring came around and the weather warmed up, I woke them up and moved them outdoors permanently once they were "up and running". Bert had shown me pics of his outdoor enclosures in Alabama all covered over with snow, while his breeding stock was all asleep and dug in under the snow. I decided to let mine hibernate "naturally" outdoors, they way Bert had been hibernating their parents. I figured they'd be fine, since it doesn't get nearly that cold here. Everything went well at first. In January we had a typical warm spell, like we often do here in Southern CA. Temps got into the 80's for a couple of weeks. When they first went under they dug in pretty deep under their cave and plugged up the entrance. I covered the whole area with dead leaves and a sheet of plastic to keep the rain out. During the warm spell they dug themselves up and came out to see the warm weather. Well winter wasn't done. They went back in their cave and covered the door like they do every night in the spring and summer, but they didn't dig back in. They just stayed above ground. When the night temps dropped below freezing again, the two on top died. I found them that way and the third one, who was down in the hole a bit and under the other two, was barely alive and in a bad way. I was able to save him, but it was very tentative for a few weeks. I really didn't think he would make it, but he did. I gave him to another breeder. That was the year they would have woken up and given me eggs. Ever heard a grown man bawl his eyes out like a baby? Its not pretty. The neighbors thought somebody died. SOMEBODY DID! My ignorance and inexperience killed them. One could easily argue, it was stupidity. They had to die for me to learn better. All I had to do was bring them in and hibernate them the way I had the first two years and they would still be here along with a couple hundred babies by now. It was a 50 foot walk from the pen to the garage. I've had lots of hit or miss gambles like the stories related in the above posts, but these were babies that I had raised and cared for every day with my own hands. They were magnificent animals and everyone who sat in my outdoor pen with me was in awe of them.
There is just no reason and no justification to hibernate animals that you care about "naturally" outdoors. There are too many variables and too many things that can go wrong. I think they do need to hibernate, but it should be done indoors under controlled and monitored conditions. Why risk it? Why not just do it indoors, where you know it will be fine? Can they survive it outdoors? Well, yes, most of the time they do. But why settle for "most of the time" when you can be sure ALL of the time, if its done right indoors. They get the same benefit of outdoor hibernation without any of the risk.
To me its like walking around a bad neighborhood with a big wad of cash in your hand. You might make it through without getting mugged, but why risk it? What's the benefit? Put your money away and stay out of the bad neighborhood, for cryin' out loud.
Tom said:
First off, they still get risks and still many die during hibernation when we humans play god and force them into hibernation. Even folks with years of experience loss some while hibernating them in these controlled settings. Second so many folks do hibernations wrong and kill even more tortoises. We too often only put them into a partial hibernation which is a slow starvation type death.
Your reasoning for why inside is so much safer, could also be applied to why even house them outdoors? We can so much better keeping them inside at a constant temp, constant humidity, no predators, so why ever would we risk housing them outside???
Or perhaps why do we try so hard to give them natural diets, grow our own food for them, etc, when we could so much easier just give them only a human made pellet diet that contains all the things they need?
We may not be able to give them fully the life they would have in the wild, mainly because we can't give them the same room to roam for starters. Does that mean we should not try? It's like trying to make them all follow in this one pattern and we know they are each individual beings, much like no two humans have the exact same needs at the exact same time.
Is a sterile life with no freedom to reason, not allowed to follow their own thoughts and their own natural instincts in the name of keeping them safe really giving them much of a life? Does the number of days really mean more then the quality of those days?
To hibernate outside or inside really depends upon where you live and your climate. Desert tortoises live in the desert where its pretty dry with not much rain fall. Here in the San Joaquin Valley, where I live, if I allowed my desert tortoises to hibernate outside they would all wake up with respiratory infections if they woke up at all. Its just too wet and cold here for them to be outside during the winter months. The first year I kept Russian tortoises I lost half of them because I let them hibernate outside in our cold, wet winter weather.
If you can duplicate the conditions in your tortoise's home world outside then by all means, let him hibernate outside. But in my mind, its much safer to box them up and keep them indoors. Under 50 but over 40 degrees, dry and quiet.
If you can duplicate the conditions in your tortoise's home world outside then by all means, let him hibernate outside. But in my mind, its much safer to box them up and keep them indoors. Under 50 but over 40 degrees, dry and quiet.
I sure am loving all of this information. I'm still not sure what to do though and sometimes I think it will probably just be up to Fernando and what he decides to do. If I do hibernate I guess I would probably do it in the garage since it's cold and safe in there. I hope the experiences keep coming though.
Jacqui, we both have different FEELINGS on the matter, but the FACTS are as follows:
1. Sure anything can go wrong with indoor hibernation, just like anything can go wrong with housing them at any time in any way. We see it here on the site far too often. People lose tortoises all the time for a variety of reasons. The fact is, I have never lost a single animal of any species, lizard or tortoise, during indoor hibernation. Other people making mistakes is really not relevant to this discussion. We've all made mistakes and lost animals, but I have never lost a single one hibernating indoors.
2. Fact: I HAVE lost several animals over the years trying to do it outside and I live in a relatively mild climate. It gets below freezing nearly every night during winter, but there is relatively little rain and it never snows. I'm very close to the natural habitat of the CDT and the climate is really similar, but in my artificial outdoor pens they cannot do whatever it is they do in the wild and, in the past, some of them have died because of it. Again, I've never lost a single one or had any problem doing the same darn thing indoors.
3. Fact: I have never forced any animal into hibernation. Every single one wanted to hibernate. I just make sure that since we artificially interfere with the process by having them captive, that I artificially make sure their body is ready for it, meaning well hydrated and an empty gut.
Further I don't think feeding them a good diet and giving them outdoor sunshine and exercise during the "up" part of the year is equivalent in any way to leaving them in a damp, shallow hole, outside, all winter long.
Also, to address your other point, whether they sleep in a box in my garage or in the ground in your yard hardly makes a difference as far as "quality of Life". They are asleep. Basically dead to the world. When they are up and active, I think the size of the enclosure, diet, exercise and sunshine DO make a HUGE difference as far as "quality of life". I just don't equate protecting them from the uncertainties of an outdoor winter, while they are ASLEEP, to a sterile life with no freedom.
Lastly, I don't know how my tone will come across in typed form, but I mean you know disrespect at all. I've just had some really bad times hibernating animals that I absolutely loved outdoors, and I've had, literally, nothing but success doing it indoors.
1. Sure anything can go wrong with indoor hibernation, just like anything can go wrong with housing them at any time in any way. We see it here on the site far too often. People lose tortoises all the time for a variety of reasons. The fact is, I have never lost a single animal of any species, lizard or tortoise, during indoor hibernation. Other people making mistakes is really not relevant to this discussion. We've all made mistakes and lost animals, but I have never lost a single one hibernating indoors.
2. Fact: I HAVE lost several animals over the years trying to do it outside and I live in a relatively mild climate. It gets below freezing nearly every night during winter, but there is relatively little rain and it never snows. I'm very close to the natural habitat of the CDT and the climate is really similar, but in my artificial outdoor pens they cannot do whatever it is they do in the wild and, in the past, some of them have died because of it. Again, I've never lost a single one or had any problem doing the same darn thing indoors.
3. Fact: I have never forced any animal into hibernation. Every single one wanted to hibernate. I just make sure that since we artificially interfere with the process by having them captive, that I artificially make sure their body is ready for it, meaning well hydrated and an empty gut.
Further I don't think feeding them a good diet and giving them outdoor sunshine and exercise during the "up" part of the year is equivalent in any way to leaving them in a damp, shallow hole, outside, all winter long.
Also, to address your other point, whether they sleep in a box in my garage or in the ground in your yard hardly makes a difference as far as "quality of Life". They are asleep. Basically dead to the world. When they are up and active, I think the size of the enclosure, diet, exercise and sunshine DO make a HUGE difference as far as "quality of life". I just don't equate protecting them from the uncertainties of an outdoor winter, while they are ASLEEP, to a sterile life with no freedom.
Lastly, I don't know how my tone will come across in typed form, but I mean you know disrespect at all. I've just had some really bad times hibernating animals that I absolutely loved outdoors, and I've had, literally, nothing but success doing it indoors.
I'm just going to chime in here on something that was posted....I watched the videos that Danny posted the other day on the Desert Tortoise and now I'm certainly convinced that I can definitely provide a better life here in my backyard for Fernando then he would have out there. There are too many uncertainties out where they normally live. I have a big backyard for him to roam around in and he seems to really like the space. He has food and water whenever he wants or needs it and he has an enclosure outside that protects him from predators and weather. Not to mention he has so many animal friends here too....two dogs and two cats and Dale. He has us to rub his shell and I think if there was one thing that I feel kind of bad about lately it's that although he might not need any company I don't think he would mind a running into a female tortoise once in a while. I do really feel bad about that because he endlessly roams around probably trying to find a female and that's not going to happen unless I make it happen. So I'm not so convinced that there not better off with us taking care of them (sometimes). Sorry a little off subject....now back to the hibernating discussion.
He has us to rub his shell and I think if there was one thing that I feel kind of bad about lately it's that although he might not need any company I don't think he would mind a running into a female tortoise once in a while. I do really feel bad about that because he endlessly roams around probably trying to find a female and that's not going to happen unless I make it happen. So I'm not so convinced that there not better off with us taking care of them (sometimes). Sorry a little off subject....now back to the hibernating discussion.
Candy said:I'm just going to chime in here on something that was posted....I watched the videos that Danny posted the other day on the Desert Tortoise and now I'm certainly convinced that I can definitely provide a better life here in my backyard for Fernando then he would have out there. There are too many uncertainties out where they normally live. I have a big backyard for him to roam around in and he seems to really like the space. He has food and water whenever he wants or needs it and he has an enclosure outside that protects him from predators and weather. Not to mention he has so many animal friends here too....two dogs and two cats and Dale.
Candy, I've studied animals and their behavior, both in the wild and captivity, my whole life. Its always been my passion and its been my profession since 1986. Now I don't know everything, but I do know that with rare exception, animals have a much better life in captivity than they do the wild. Most of them live nearly twice as long. Of course, this assumes they are properly managed and cared for.
Think about it. Freedom from internal AND external parasites. Freedom from predation. Protection from the harsh elements, a good, clean, nutrient rich diet. Clean water accessible at all times. No need to wander for miles just to barely find enough shelter and sustenance to eek by and not die. Freedom from competition for food, space and mates. In the wild, the losers of these competitions usually die and become part of the food chain. Expert veterinary care for whatever ails you. A minor injury or illness in the wild often results in that animals death.
If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I want to come back as somebody's pet (hopefully a TFO member) or a zoo animal. Wild living is very hard living.
Jacqui said:
I think this is a WONDERFUL post. Everything I could think of, but not able to put into words. I have a learning disability, and sometimes I can't put down what I'm thinking.
"Is a sterile life with no freedom to reason, not allowed to follow their own thoughts and their own natural instincts in the name of keeping them safe really giving them much of a life? Does the number of days really mean more then the quality of those days?" Wow!!! Thank you.
Tom said:
emysemys said:
I agree completely. Each of us needs to look at what our individual animal needs and what we can give them (not just in climate, but ability and also our mental outlook). I add the mental because I think if your uncomfortable with doing outside or even hibernating at all, you should not do it.
*blushes* Thank you *blushes again*terryo said:
I personally have never lost a turtle or tortoise during hibernation. I know some people say it is bad and your animal will die, I say hibernate if you like or don't if you don't like it, I personally hibrnate the ones that hibernate, and I also never hibernate a sick animal, or a new animal
Tom...although I'm totally for hibernation the natural way, and have never had a problem, I might be haveing some problems with this new bach. For two nights now, they have dug under plants for the night. Not one boxie went into the cave to dig under. Now I have to watch them and make sure they start using that cave where they will be hibernating, because if they get used to going under a plant and not in the cave, then I'm going to have trouble when the fall comes.
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