Tom is Not The Only Expert!

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MaNaAk

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If it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?
I think this forum is brilliant and
I'm really not a fan of labels like "expert" or "newbie" or whatever. I've learned long ago that it is more helpful to not view others as a whatever label, but rather as an equal. I've certainly learned things from people that are new to the hobby as much as I've gained from people like Tom who have been at it for awhile. Of all the disagreements I've had with Tom or others, things usually end up with a positive outcome. Whether my convictions grew stronger or I made changes to better husbandry.

I've known Tom for awhile now and I don't think even he would say he's an expert necessarily. At least, to the point where he would be dismissive of anyone else's success. He's willing to learn just like the rest of us. I get that it can be a challenge sometimes to prove a point in a group that has as long of a history as us on TFO, but if you have some information or experience that can help others then you should share it regardless of how it's received.
 

Gijoux

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Because I truly don't feel it is wrong for my tortoises. As the title of the thread says, Tom is not the only expert; I agree. It is a mistake to only learn from one person. Chris from GST said my tortoises look "FANTASTIC" at a year of age. But they do disagree on how to do things, most here are aware of that. In fact, most TFO recommended Testudo breeders do not advocate for closed chambers of their hatchlings.

I have Testudo graeca ibera which do not require the same conditions as the species Tom raises, and which from my understanding he has more limited experience with. I do understand it is common for many here to recommend closed chambers regardless of species, but that is the part I disagree with. I believe there is more than one way to do something. I am following closely my tortoises and researching here daily to challenge my ideas, compare my progress, and be sure I feel confident they are receiving the best care. This includes reading Tom's advice to understand why he gives it, and comparing to other sources.

I would love to put them in front of Tom and ask his opinion, but that does require thick skin. I've slowly been introducing myself to posting more and considering it though. I can understand how it is intimidating to challenge Tom's ideas, which are widely accepted here. His reputation is well-earned though.

Talk about thick skin. Tom must have the thickest skin of all, because that is what it takes to stand up against an entire Industry that has been advocating improper Tortoise Care forever. It is very difficult and heartbreaking to hear about a tortoise suffering unnecessarily and it becomes frustrating knowing it can be very different if only people will be willing to change.

We would love to see pictures of your FANTASTIC yearlings. I thought my first Tortoise was Fantastic too. The breeder I purchased him from said he looked Fantastic at a year, when he weighed only 80 grams. The breeder told me it was perfectly normal and preferrable for them to grow slowly. Once I learned from the TFO how to raise them correctly, I raised a baby up and s/he weighed 680 grams at one year and 3 months later weighed 900 grams. I raised my Leo all wrong convinced it was the right way to do it, because the breeder told me how. You can imagine my shock when he was about 4 years old and started to develop MBD and I swear to you I did everything exactly how that breeder told me to do it. I came to the TFO at that time and learned what turned out to be the correct way to keep and raise a hatchling; now I have hatched out and started hundreds of babies. My primary purpose for raising Leopard Tortoises is to be able to send each person who contacts me, whether they purchase a baby or not, a copy of my Leopard Tortoise Hatchling Care Guide, which contains everything from Tom at the TFO and the first sentence in the Care Guide provides a link to the TFO. I have sold 2 month old hatchlings that weigh 80 grams. My Leo is now an adult and seems to be fully recovered, but I know that the babies I am raising are going to have the very best start in life and if their keepers will follow the guidance provided, the babies will not only survive, but thrive, thanks to the information provided by Tom. I have to say however, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink".
 
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Talk about thick skin. Tom must have the thickest skin of all, because that is what it takes to stand up against an entire Industry that has been advocating improper Tortoise Care forever. It is very difficult and heartbreaking to hear about a tortoise suffering unnecessarily and it becomes frustrating knowing it can be very different if only people will be willing to change.

You have a great point there. I do not have the courage necessary to debate all day on the internet, and try to continually educate people the way Tom does. My anxiety would be through the roof! If people only read some of Tom's posts they may be ruffled, even decide he is arrogant or mean. If you read a few hundred of his posts I think you understand more where he is coming from. I do also believe any open-top or outdoor enclosure is shut down harshly.

I think the crucial difference here between your situation and mine is that the breeder I'm talking about is heralded here as an expert as well. Chris Leone of Garden State Tortoise is one of the most recommended breeders of Mediterranean tortoises. Second is Tortoise Supply, who also uses open top for Testudo. Not every breeder is created equally, I can agree. It is TFO who posts Chris' care guide in the Greek forum for members to learn to care for their tortoises. Oddly, it is the same forum who disputes that information repeatedly. In my post I state, I am NOT reinventing the wheel and turning down expert advice, I am deferring to the Testudo experts.

After this thread, and an accusation that my pictures are proof of failure I did decide to put my Tortoises where my mouth is, so to speak. Here is the thread of my tortoises.


There is more than one way to do things. There is more than one expert. Most are very passionate about their tortoises and this hobby. There should be room for everyone.
 

tag78

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I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
Sometimes we don't like being informed that we may be doing something wrong (or even that we could be doing it better). There are people, with more knowledge than us, from whom we seek advice. Some of those people are more direct than others but that doesn't mean you are being dis'd.
I have asked questions here that my first reaction was - "why isn't he kissing my arse" (just kidding)..... :) but you know what I mean. I prefer more sociable discourse but that doesn't mean I can't accept a direct answer. I'm sure this guy has his hands full answering questions and his first priority seems to be the well-being of the critters. I'm good with that.
Don't give in to your inner - shall I say - lack of confidence? Keep asking and listening, that's how we learn and there is always something to learn about these little monsters.
 

Wpagey

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Check out the Facebook tortoise group to see what bad advice and trolls really are. Real answers save lives
Best comment so far... It's clear that Tom has a lot of knowledge and is not shy about spending his precious time sharing it with anyone who asks. In his effort to be factual and brief, it may seem a little off-putting to some. I'm sure we could all pile on Tom with our own list of his faults, but I doubt it would do anyone any good to cast the first stone and all that. This is the best place I've found for help with my tortoise journey, and that day that I become perfect and know everything I need to know will be that last day...cuz I'll be perfectly dead!
 

SKOLsuper

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You have not been belittled. You gave advice that is potentially harmful, and I said so. That is not belittling. That is making sure poor tortoise care advice is called out and stopped before it does ever more damage. Sounds like you are far too sensitive. I welcomed you to the group and offered free knowledge that would improve your tortoise's lives. That is being helpful, not belittling. No insults were slung your way, and no insult was intended. I addressed your outdated wrong info, and offered you help. If you are so sensitive that you can't see that, then this is not the place for you, and I don't know what place could possibly be for you. We take great care here to be welcoming and not insult people. We also work hard to promote good husbandry and advance tortoise care. When people come here that are not up to speed on all the new knowledge, it can be a bit of a culture shock. I hope you can get past your self-wounded pride and imagined insult and stick around to learn some new stuff. I hope you can teach me some new stuff. Nobody's tortoises are better off if you leave and close your mind.
 

SKOLsuper

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Sometimes we don't like being informed that we may be doing something wrong (or even that we could be doing it better). There are people, with more knowledge than us, from whom we seek advice. Some of those people are more direct than others but that doesn't mean you are being dis'd.
I have asked questions here that my first reaction was - "why isn't he kissing my arse" (just kidding)..... :) but you know what I mean. I prefer more sociable discourse but that doesn't mean I can't accept a direct answer. I'm sure this guy has his hands full answering questions and his first priority seems to be the well-being of the critters. I'm good with that.
Don't give in to your inner - shall I say - lack of confidence? Keep asking and listening, that's how we learn and there is always something to learn about these little monsters.
I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
🤬 wtf
 

Thomas tortoise

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I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
I thought the same thing when I came on this forum ( no offense Tom) but after a while I noticed he was right with everything he posted on this forum.
 

SKOLsuper

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I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
Tom knows everything wtf 🤬
 

Gijoux

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You have a great point there. I do not have the courage necessary to debate all day on the internet, and try to continually educate people the way Tom does. My anxiety would be through the roof! If people only read some of Tom's posts they may be ruffled, even decide he is arrogant or mean. If you read a few hundred of his posts I think you understand more where he is coming from. I do also believe any open-top or outdoor enclosure is shut down harshly.

I think the crucial difference here between your situation and mine is that the breeder I'm talking about is heralded here as an expert as well. Chris Leone of Garden State Tortoise is one of the most recommended breeders of Mediterranean tortoises. Second is Tortoise Supply, who also uses open top for Testudo. Not every breeder is created equally, I can agree. It is TFO who posts Chris' care guide in the Greek forum for members to learn to care for their tortoises. Oddly, it is the same forum who disputes that information repeatedly. In my post I state, I am NOT reinventing the wheel and turning down expert advice, I am deferring to the Testudo experts.

After this thread, and an accusation that my pictures are proof of failure I did decide to put my Tortoises where my mouth is, so to speak. Here is the thread of my tortoises.


There is more than one way to do things. There is more than one expert. Most are very passionate about their tortoises and this hobby. There should be room for everyone.
That's the beauty of a forum, there is room for everyone.
 

wellington

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Well, for those breeders doing it open top, have they ever checked in on the tortoises they sell?
They don't immediately pyramid or die from hot and dry or even hot and some what humid open top tables.
That comes after the purchaser gets them home and thinks they are doing the right thing and then 6 months to a year they pyramid.
Btw, most of us members don't consider anyone an expert. Not even Tom calls himself an expert.
Funny though how if the open top way for those mentioned produced smooth shells, why aren't they sharing what they do and what they come out to look like?
 

KarenSoCal

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TortulandiaMPS

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You have not been belittled. You gave advice that is potentially harmful, and I said so. That is not belittling. That is making sure poor tortoise care advice is called out and stopped before it does ever more damage. Sounds like you are far too sensitive. I welcomed you to the group and offered free knowledge that would improve your tortoise's lives. That is being helpful, not belittling. No insults were slung your way, and no insult was intended. I addressed your outdated wrong info, and offered you help. If you are so sensitive that you can't see that, then this is not the place for you, and I don't know what place could possibly be for you. We take great care here to be welcoming and not insult people. We also work hard to promote good husbandry and advance tortoise care. When people come here that are not up to speed on all the new knowledge, it can be a bit of a culture shock. I hope you can get past your self-wounded pride and imagined insult and stick around to learn some new stuff. I hope you can teach me some new stuff. Nobody's tortoises are better off if you leave and close your mind.
Amén!!
 

wellington

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Thanks so much for adding such insightful commentary to our discussion. We just wouldn't be able to function without this level of intellect.😡
Some people have jealousy towards others. Yet they do little compared to the one they have the jealousy against. As much as Tom is liked by many, there are those that dislike him too.
Yet they don't even come close to the help and knowledge Tom gives.
 
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