Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

[Fluffy]

I wanted to move this here so not hijack the other thread. I hope to have a pleasant and meaningful conversation about this subject. Here is Tom's response to this video.

"Some of this is good info, but you and everyone reading should be aware of the problems with this info.

1. No mention of the critical brooder box stage where they absorb their yolk sac and the umbilical scar closes up BEFORE they go Into a regular enclosure with substrate.
2. Sand. Chris is a good guy and mostly gives good info, but he doesn't recognize the danger of using sand because as far as he knows, it hasn't caused him any problems. But it does cause problems. Lots of problems. Reptile vets see many cases annually in their practices. It is a skin and eye irritant, and it can cause impactions, even as a small part of mixed substrate. He reasons that they encounter sand in the natural environment. I counter that with two points: 1. Our little totes and tiny enclosures are NOT the wild, and there is no possible way to understand or simulate all that happens in the wild. In captive condition they get sometimes sand impacted. How do you avoid sand impaction and skin and eye irritation? Don't use sand. Plain and simple. They don't need it. It serves no useful purpose. They grow up fine and dandy without it. Point number 2. There are lots of things in the wild that they are exposed to that are not good for them. Predators, drought, famine, disease, weather extremes, etc... We can all see why it would not be a good idea to inflict these things upon them in a captive setting. I don't understand why Chris doesn't recognize that its not a good idea to expose them to something that kills lots of them every year all over the globe, just because they might encounter it in the wild.
3. Calcium once a month? I don't think that is enough for larger species that are growing rapidly. And I would not add calcium to Mazuri. Mazuri is balanced nutrition. Adding calcium upsets that balance. I recommend adding calcium supplementation on greens days with no Mazuri. And twice a week seems much more reasonable to me, but this does depend on the diet, size, species, age, and sex. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer to this, and there is a wide margin of error for whatever someone chooses to do. With a decent diet that includes Mazuri, I don't think once a month calcium will hurt anything.
4. Somebody tell Chris (9:36), pyramiding doesn't lead to liver and kidney failure. I think he knows this, and what he was trying to say was that the chronic dehydration that causes pyramiding when they are little can lead to kidney failure, but the way he phrased it would be confusing to someone who doesn't know how this all works.
5. He's still recommending cfl bulbs. Not good. Just like sand. They don't need it, and there are better alternatives that won't burn their eyes.
6. Still recommending a spot bulb. Not good. Causes the the very pyramiding he aims to prevent.
7. No mention of soaking. Did I miss that?

The rest of the info about hides and cover, humidity, closed chambers is excellent. He didn't go much into diet, so I hope people don't watch this and think they should feed Mazuri mixed with greens every day.

It should be obvious to everyone that there is more than one way to do things. I don't care if people just choose to do things in a different way than I do things, AS LONG AS, those different ways are not causing harm. Some of the above mentioned differences in how to care for babies can and will do harm to tortoises, and that is my sole point for taking the time to type up this post."

 

[Fluffy]

Tom I wanted to discuss your response. I hope you don't think this is in any way an attack on you or all you've done for tortoise care. It's hard sometimes to have these types of conversations over written word. Without tone or nonverbal cues it can come across wrong. I hope that doesn't happen here.

There was a lot to unpack with your response but I would like to start with your comments on sand. I don't disagree that its not needed but let me ask you this. If someone like Chris and so many others can use it successfully without problems why can't everyone? First I think people overuse it, as in they use too large of a percentage of sand or sand only. The second thing I think that is happening is a lack of proper hydration. I have no proof of either but I see sand used successfully and there has to be a reason other people have problems and some have none. Again this is not to say let's all start advocating sand but I genuinely would like to explore some of these things further. Chris is one of the few people who can match your experience and he uses sand with no issues so he's obviously doing something different.

This is not me trying to defend Chris in any way or to put you down. I have learned ton's from both of you. I know you continually put down YouTube and everyone on there but GST has done so much to further the care of tortoises especially for people who are visual learners. I hope we can discuss this and maybe learn something along the way.

 

[jaizei]

Tom I wanted to discuss your response. I hope you don't think this is in any way an attack on you or all you've done for tortoise care. It's hard sometimes to have these types of conversations over written word. Without tone or nonverbal cues it can come across wrong. I hope that doesn't happen here.

There was a lot to unpack with your response but I would like to start with your comments on sand. I don't disagree that its not needed but let me ask you this. If someone like Chris and so many others can use it successfully without problems why can't everyone? First I think people overuse it, as in they use too large of a percentage of sand or sand only. The second thing I think that is happening is a lack of proper hydration. I have no proof of either but I see sand used successfully and there has to be a reason other people have problems and some have none. Again this is not to say let's all start advocating sand but I genuinely would like to explore some of these things further. Chris is one of the few people who can match your experience and he uses sand with no issues so he's obviously doing something different.

This is not me trying to defend Chris in any way or to put you down. I have learned ton's from both of you. I know you continually put down YouTube and everyone on there but GST has done so much to further the care of tortoises especially for people who are visual learners. I hope we can discuss this and maybe learn something along the way.

As someone that has used various amounts of sand as part of substrate mixes for decades, this is more or less my belief. A well hydrated animal kept on substrates containing sand is different than a dehydrated animal kept on mostly sand.

 

[Fluffy]

As someone that has used various amounts of sand as part of substrate mixes for decades, this is more or less my belief. A well hydrated animal kept on substrates containing sand is different than a dehydrated animal kept on mostly sand.

I have no experience using it indoors. Coco coir and Cyprus mulch have worked well for me in that regard. I have used sand in outdoor enclosures but it was in small amounts. I have a lot of clay where some of my enclosures are and it was a nice amendment to the soil. I was shooting for more of a loamy texture. Maybe about 25% sand.

 

[S2G]

i agree with Tom on everything with exception on sand. ALL sand is not created equal. I think the impaction & irritant risk comes from using that fine sugary white sand that looks so good. A dry earth mix is way different. My soil outside is similar to gardenstate. Its a sandy dry earth mix like 1 part play sand to 3 parts sifted topsoil with chert in it. Its doesnt stick to them like a high sand mix would. Its very similar to pics you see wild horsfields on. Mine feed on slate or hanging from driftwood though.

Honestly i dont agree with anyone on how to keep humidity up for hatchlings. Just substrate with no drainage layer etc is not good imo.

 

[Tom]

I don't disagree that its not needed but let me ask you this. If someone like Chris and so many others can use it successfully without problems why can't everyone?

I don't know when he started keeping tortoises, and I don't know who he knows and associates with, so I have no idea how close our experience levels are.

Your question is simple to answer: Because it kills tortoises, causes eye infections, and causes skin infections.

Anyone who keeps large colonies of tortoises experiences losses from time to time. Sometimes the losses are explainable, and sometimes not. I wonder how many people lose a tortoise to sand impaction and have no idea why it died. Few people pay the money for a necropsy.

Since the mid 80s, I have worked closely with vets in the exotic pet field. My wife was a veterinary consultant for 15 years and as a result, we know all the vets and vet clinics in this whole area, and many of those vets are friends that share my dinner table on occasion, and some of them share holidays with us. I've travelled around the world with one of them going to reptile shows. They all know of my affinity for all things tortoise, they've been to my ranch to see my set-up, and my results, and they frequently call or text me with tortoise questions wen tortoise clients come into their clinics. They also tell me about their tortoise cases that come through their doors. The problems from sand cfl bulbs are ongoing and constant. I've asked before and have never received an answer: Has anyone who uses and recommends sand as a substrate for tortoises ever sat through an entire sand impaction surgery? No one has answered in the affirmative yet. I, on the other hand, have seen that surgery performed. More than once. Its fascinating watching them saw through an otherwise healthy plastron, and then taking in all the sights, sounds and smells that go with that... And then the follow up that goes with replacing the plastron piece and getting it to reattach...

So I return the question: If its not needed, serves no purpose, then why use it or recommend it? Are my tortoises somehow suffering because I don't add sand to their substrate? We could play Russian roulette up to five times and no one would die. Why would we take that chance?

 

[Fluffy]

I also want to mention that we should take into account people's natural outdoor environments. I have high humidity here. I know many in the south east as well. Maybe that also plays into the difference in use of sand and impaction. Just a thought.

 

[Fluffy]

I don't know when he started keeping tortoises, and I don't know who he knows and associates with, so I have no idea how close our experience levels are.

Your question is simple to answer: Because it kills tortoises, causes eye infections, and causes skin infections.

Anyone who keeps large colonies of tortoises experiences losses from time to time. Sometimes the losses are explainable, and sometimes not. I wonder how many people lose a tortoise to sand impaction and have no idea why it died. Few people pay the money for a necropsy.

Since the mid 80s, I have worked closely with vets in the exotic pet field. My wife was a veterinary consultant for 15 years and as a result, we know all the vets and vet clinics in this whole area, and many of those vets are friends that share my dinner table on occasion, and some of them share holidays with us. I've travelled around the world with one of them going to reptile shows. They all know of my affinity for all things tortoise, they've been to my ranch to see my set-up, and my results, and they frequently call or text me with tortoise questions wen tortoise clients come into their clinics. They also tell me about their tortoise cases that come through their doors. The problems from sand cfl bulbs are ongoing and constant. I've asked before and have never received an answer: Has anyone who uses and recommends sand as a substrate for tortoises ever sat through an entire sand impaction surgery? No one has answered in the affirmative yet. I, on the other hand, have seen that surgery performed. More than once. Its fascinating watching them saw through an otherwise healthy plastron, and then taking in all the sights, sounds and smells that go with that... And then the follow up that goes with replacing the plastron piece and getting it to reattach...

So I return the question: If its not needed, serves no purpose, then why use it or recommend it? Are my tortoises somehow suffering because I don't add sand to their substrate? We could play Russian roulette up to five times and no one would die. Why would we take that chance?

Tom I know this is going to sound like I'm being an *** but I truly am not. How can you tell us about all these vets and what you've learned and still continue to tell people not to listen to or go to vets? We can't have it both ways. This is the problem with the blanket statements I talked about on here before.

Now to answer your question. I never said it was needed or to advocate for it. I simply asked why some people can use it and others can't. It's obvious, like most subjects here, we are done learning about this.

 

[Tom]

A well hydrated animal kept on substrates containing sand is different than a dehydrated animal kept on mostly sand.

I'll grant you that difference, but what if the 10,000 people reading this don't keep their tortoise as well hydrated as you do? What if they live in a drier climate? What if you get into a car accident, and your usual tortoise hydration routine is interrupted? My tortoises won't become sand impacted in that event. Going by what you clearly stated above, yours might.

Assuming your above stated belief is correct, why risk this? Is there some monumental benefit to using sand in your substrate that makes these terrible risks worth it? Not that I can see, there isn't.

 

[Tom]

Tom I know this is going to sound like I'm being an *** but I truly am not. How can you tell us about all these vets and what you've learned and still continue to tell people not to listen to or go to vets? We can't have it both ways. This is the problem with the blanket statements I talked about on here before.

Just because I know them does not mean that they know the things about tortoise care that experienced people know. It is BECAUSE I know them so well that I fully understand how much most of them DON'T know about tortoise care. Knowing me does not make someone a tortoise expert. Don't you know people who don't know much about tortoise care? What do I say repeatedly? Vets know about medicine, surgery, wound care, and other such medical things that are learned in vet school. They don't know tortoise care unless they learn it the same way any of the rest of us learn it. It is not learned in vet school. Vets learn tortoise care from the same sources as everyone else, which are usually wrong.

Now to answer your question. I never said it was needed or to advocate for it. I simply asked why some people can use it and others can't. It's obvious, like most subjects here, we are done learning about this.

Why can some use it and others can't? No one should use it. To use my above analogy: If you are one of the first five people playing Russian roulette, it was perfectly safe. How come nobody is asking player number six?

 

[Fluffy]

Just because I know them does not mean that they know the things about tortoise care that experienced people know. It is BECAUSE I know them so well that I fully understand how much most of them DON'T know about tortoise care. Knowing me does not make someone a tortoise expert. Don't you know people who don't know much about tortoise care? What do I say repeatedly? Vets know about medicine, surgery, wound care, and other such medical things that are learned in vet school. They don't know tortoise care unless they learn it the same way any of the rest of us learn it. It is not learned in vet school. Vets learn tortoise care from the same sources as everyone else, which are usually wrong.

So how can we know that they correctly diagnosed the sand impaction and cause of death? Do you see the dangerous road we go down when tell people not to trust something? But again that's fine. I would just like to know when we tell someone that even though they see people doing it that their tortoise is going to die I could explain why.

 

[TammyJ]

Tortoises don't live in sand unless we decide to put them in it. Then they can't escape from it and so they "suck it up", maybe they survive "just fine" for a long time, maybe they don't. The "in the wild" arguments don't hold because they are no longer in the wild, they are in our care. In the wild, if there is sand around, they may burrow in it to get warm, cool or safe for a while, or walk across it to get to moisture, water, food and shelter. They do not live in sand. That's my contribution and why I totally agree with Tom about sand. Sand may look nice and be easy and cheap, but why put your tortoise at risk?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I do have to go with Tom and tammy on this one 100%, it adds absolutely nothing to the tortoises life, and there’s known risks associated with it. Sounds simple but that’s truly enough for me to stay clear and recommend any other tortoise owner does too.

Some captive tortoises may always be fine housed on it, others may not. Ultimately why take a risk with something that comes with zero added benefit or recommended others take a potential risk

 

[S2G]

What do you do when your natural soil is sandy? Im sure out in california your mix is about like mine if not more sandy just a drier air. Do you amend it?

Heres mine

 

[jaizei]

The problems from sand cfl bulbs are ongoing and constant. I've asked before and have never received an answer: Has anyone who uses and recommends sand as a substrate for tortoises ever sat through an entire sand impaction surgery? No one has answered in the affirmative yet. I, on the other hand, have seen that surgery performed. More than once. Its fascinating watching them saw through an otherwise healthy plastron, and then taking in all the sights, sounds and smells that go with that... And then the follow up that goes with replacing the plastron piece and getting it to reattach...

You know for a fact these animals were well hydrated? Good diet, with plenty of fiber and not just greens? Approximately what percentage of their substrate was sand?

Since you mention them, what brand(s) of CFL are causing these problems. How high above the animals were they mounted, and was it verified that only 1 CFL was used at a time? Not unheard of for someone to put 2 in a double dome to create a larger area without realizing that UVB is additive.

Without that additional information, attributing blame for these outcomes is speculative.

I'll grant you that difference, but what if the 10,000 people reading this don't keep their tortoise as well hydrated as you do? What if they live in a drier climate? What if you get into a car accident, and your usual tortoise hydration routine is interrupted? My tortoises won't become sand impacted in that event. Going by what you clearly stated above, yours might.

Assuming your above stated belief is correct, why risk this? Is there some monumental benefit to using sand in your substrate that makes these terrible risks worth it? Not that I can see, there isn't.

A small amount of sand can change the texture of the substrate. And it's not a risk in these amounts.

or is there risk in everything. Cypress mulch is much more dangerous, can kill without impaction. Bark can cause impaction with significantly less substrate eaten then sand or soil.

You create an arbitrary line in the sand as it were. What you do is acceptable risk, and what you don't like is unacceptable. What it really does is impede knowledge. Those that have housed tortoises on substrates or soils containing sand, won't share that here because you put sand on the bad list.

If sand, in any quantity, is a fraction as inherently dangerous as you say, you'd be telling everyone that has some amount of sand in their native soil to terraform their outdoor tortoise areas to a 100% sandless substrate. And generally, theres some amount of sand in most peoples soil.

Doesn't matter how much it costs, ask that 6th man if your tortoises life is worth the 'risk'.

 

[turtlesteve]

My thoughts:

He's recommending a setup where humidity and temperature can generally be controlled. So overall his advice is probably helping average tortoise buyers rather than hurting them. My hatchling setups over the past few years have been similar to this concept.

- I have used mostly black tubs (rather than clear) and I don't like the stock lids that come with them, so I slice a rectangle of plywood with a table saw and cut round holes for dome lamps.

- I don't use spot lamps, but I have been trying the CFL UV bulbs because I need a low wattage UV bulb that fits in a dome. I am cautious and check them all with a UV meter first. The problems with these bulbs in the past were caused by quality control issues or defective lots - they aren't ALL bad.

HOWEVER: I have had very mixed results with regards to pyramiding. Often I get both smooth tortoises and bumpy ones in the same setup, even with "easy" species. I've had excellent results with Burmese stars and Pyxis, but very mixed results with Greeks, Redfoots, Chacos, and Indian stars. There is more going on with regards to pyramiding, I have some ideas but no proof of anything.

The sand issue: I've not seen any other thing be so contentious among tortoise keepers. I would very much like to see a thread with excerpts from necropsy reports, which would be useful for convincing people that impaction happens. How often it happens? No idea. I'm not keen on taking risks unless there is a benefit to doing so. For example, I will take risks incubating hot to try and produce females, in species where there is a surplus of males in captivity. Or, I will run trials to try and avoid pyramiding. But I see no obvious benefit to using sand as a substrate.

Steve

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

What do you do when your natural soil is sandy? Im sure out in california your mix is about like mine if not more sandy just a drier air. Do you amend it?

Heres mine

I guess that’s one of those things you can’t control depending on your location, I’d personally dig where the tortoise is housed to see if the underneath is less sandy, then plant grass there. But that’s just me.
If the soil is still sandy, it’s not necessarily ideal, but just one of those things and is what it is.
It just still wouldn’t be something I’d purposely add

 

[mark1]

veterinary care for reptiles is pretty new.............i read on here, every time i come here, veterinarians know nothing about tortoises??? the cause of death in captive tortoises is almost never diagnosed, even today...not many folks paying $400-$500 for a necropsy on a tortoise they paid a couple hundred bucks for . in the few studies i've read the leading cause is "undetermined"...... mentioned in those studies is the fact that there really aren't any others studies....... i think impaction is a miniscule cause of death when looking at disease, accident, husbandry..... how many folks on here have had a tortoise that died from impaction, verified by an x-ray?

 

[Tom]

So how can we know that they correctly diagnosed the sand impaction and cause of death?

Because the gut was full of sand!!!

Do you see the dangerous road we go down when tell people not to trust something? But again that's fine. I would just like to know when we tell someone that even though they see people doing it that their tortoise is going to die I could explain why.

The dangerous road is using sand as tortoise substrate.

NO ONE has ever said that using sand in the substrate is an automatic 100% certain death sentence. That would be absurd. I've never told anyone that if they use sand that their tortoise is going to die. What I have said, and I'll bet Jaizie could find 100 repetitions of this in a few minutes, is this: "Sand is an impaction risk and a potential skin and eye irritant. It should not be used as tortoise substrate." That statement is, was, and always will be true.

Funny thing is that no one here is debating whether or not sand is safe. Everyone agrees that it is a risk, but some people try to explain away the risk by saying that as long as they are well hydrated it is okay. Well we have all seen dehydrated tortoise in every part of this country and all over the world. I don't know many vets in the SouthEast and I am not privy to what tortoise aliments they deal with over there on a regular basis. I know what I see here though, and what I see is tortoises getting impacted with sand far too often.

 

[Tom]

What do you do when your natural soil is sandy? Im sure out in california your mix is about like mine if not more sandy just a drier air. Do you amend it?

Heres mine

Nothing.

My enclosures are huge, they walk a lot and I feed them on trays in areas that are not sandy. The ground here would best be described as rocky dirt.

Same thing with little rocks. I had a new member asking me about this earlier today. The person is making a new outdoor enclosure and was trying remove all of the little rocks. If rocks and sand are part of the ground outside, there is nothing we can do about it, and nothing that needs to be done about it. I've seen enclosures in Florida with a high percentage of sand. I wouldn't house a tortoise on that. What is being debated here is the practice of intentionally adding sand to indoor tortoise substrate.

"Sand", by the way, merely denotes particle size, as does "silt" or "gravel".