Tortoise choice of sleeping areas

[molliemoo]

We have had our Russian for 1 year (rescue found wandering streets - not surprised read on!).. He is 5 years old.. hates enclosures... loves the garden and the free reign of the house. Last winter we couldnt hibernate as just had him... so we let him roam the house for half the day and back in his table for evenings/basking, etc. He has a great enclosre outside with access to garden and even in the nice days we have had.. he still comes back into the house (doors left open) and charges around very confidently. His 'bedroom' is still in the house as too cold at night to move into his outside enclosure he only basks in this under the lamp for a couple of hours in the morning then wants out.. he will then find his spot behind a chair and scratch until comfortable then sleeps.. He seems healthy and happy and very knowing and confident with us - doesnt eat huge amount but not losing weight. We have never had a torty before so just curious as to this behaviour ie all ok to let him do what he wants ? Is he getting enough lamp time if not under it (his choice !) and yes he loves to dig in the garden and his outside enclosure and seems to be doing that in his favourite corner behind the chair in the house... any advice would be appreciated.

 

[wellington]

No it's not okay to let him walk the floors of your house. It's likely not warm enough and he needs proper substrate to walk on not carpets or slippery floors.
He needs to easily get to his basking area which needs to reach 95-100 at his height. All over temps should range from 75-80. Night temps can be as low as 60's as long as he has the proper day temps to warm back up.
Either leave him outside during the day if your temps are good and bring him in only to sleep in his indoor enclosure or, put him outside and give him a proper outdoor hide that you can close him in at night.
As for his age,why do you think he is five? Whoever told you that is likely wrong. If no hatch date is known, there's no way to tell it's age. A lot of Russians are wild caught and bought from pet stores. They are around 8-10 years of age at that time.

 

[molliemoo]

No it's not okay to let him walk the floors of your house. It's likely not warm enough and he needs proper substrate to walk on not carpets or slippery floors.
He needs to easily get to his basking area which needs to reach 95-100 at his height. All over temps should range from 75-80. Night temps can be as low as 60's as long as he has the proper day temps to warm back up.
Either leave him outside during the day if your temps are good and bring him in only to sleep in his indoor enclosure or, put him outside and give him a proper outdoor hide that you can close him in at night.
As for his age,why do you think he is five? Whoever told you that is likely wrong. If no hatch date is known, there's no way to tell it's age. A lot of Russians are wild caught and bought from pet stores. They are around 8-10 years of age at that time.

thanks for your advise, he has proper substrate and access to to his basking area. My point is he is choosing to leave both his outside enclosure and inside basking area to come into the house/roam = thats my point if he's cold why would he leave his basking area ? I rescued him and the vet said he was 5 ish. I had him checked at at a reptile store and they agreed he was young. How else can I tell ?

 

[wellington]

Not likely proper age guesses. There is no way of knowing, like I said, unless you know the hatch date. Pet stores really know nothing.
You stop him from being able to leave either the indoor or outdoor enclosures.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome to the forum!
As wellington has said, letting your guy free roam indoors shouldn’t be done, the reason he’s desperate to get out is likely because the enclosure size isn’t big enough, most folks in the uk don’t have big enough indoor spaces.
As much as it’s encouraged to have your guy in a safe outdoor enclosure, being from the uk myself, I know how dire our weather is, and that we simply cannot house any tortoise outdoors for long here, an outdoor enclosure is great for them to enjoy on summer days though!
Care advice for these guys is painfully behind here, fb pages, YouTube, pet stores, they’re all repeating the same outdated advice, this forum is made of people who have spent years finding the best ways to care for them that actually result in healthy tortoise.

As adults they need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthens their muscles.
Don’t think they can get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams, being away from their heat source means they’re being exposed to temperatures that are too low too often, smooth surfaces like laminate flooring will wreak absolute havoc on their hip joints over time.
There’s just numerous reasons it isn’t a good idea unfortunately, harmful floor cleaners, foreign objects being swallowed, getting stuck under things they shouldn’t like shelving or sofas, low temperatures, no uv, getting hit by doors, one member has mentioned they knew someone who’s tort got their head crushed in a door jam, flipping hazards, smooth services, the list goes on and is endless.
They feel most comfortable and safe in a space that best mimics their natural environment, so an appropriate sized enclosure is always the ultimate goal, hopefully we can help

I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc
This is one way to come up with an appropriate indoor set up, including the appropriate indoor uv

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. We’re a cold climate so I think you’ll most likely need these.

Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, roaming room is vital for tortoise health, it aids in digestion and builds muscle strength. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct

Also you may find this link below useful for some food ideas! In the wildflower section there’s SO many choices that grow great in our climate, you can buy seeds online and plant in organic soil(free of chemicals) in a planter the tortoises don’t have access to, and forage from them as they grow

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

 

[molliemoo]

Thank you so much for your comprehensive advice very much appreciated. I am very comfortable with his outside and inside housing, follows same as you advise and spent lots of effort and pennies setting him up however will read through thoroughly and adapt where needed. You are correct this weather is what frustrating me.. he likes roaming so annoying when so cold still outside being caged inside just doesn't seem to suit him however perfect his environment alas will need to keep him locked in with this weather . We adore him and doing everything needed (yes will not allow house roaming now I know). One thing I haven't a clue yet is hibernation IE when with our winters shifting out.. I have just, fridge etc just when and hence when you start reducing his food..... ? I'm sure you have done excellent advice x

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

This thread might have your answers on brumation: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/toms-brumation-thread.201823/ Of course, if you have any new questions, we are happy to answer.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hopefully the link on brumation that’s been posted above will be helpful for you to read through

 

[molliemoo]

Hopefully the link on brumation that’s been posted above will be helpful for you to read through

yes read already I do wish I could find a UK single source of truth though so many variations.... im confident ive got it though... thanks everyone.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

yes read already I do wish I could find a UK single source of truth though so many variations.... im confident ive got it though... thanks everyone.

There is, I know first hand what a minefield it can be
Everything I’ve learnt here and everything people advise is genuinely the most up to date stuff, providing it’s not a super old thread.

You can’t go wrong using this forum as your single source of information, whereas elsewhere online there’s so many errors and outdated care, it can be more confusing when theres places that offer both good and bad advice.
This is the ultimate tortoise hive mind, made up of so many different experienced owners/breeders from around the world, they’ve spent years perfecting their care through lots of trial and error

 

[Tom]

= thats my point if he's cold why would he leave his basking area ?

Because they don't have the powers of reasoning and deduction that humans have. Where they come from, everywhere they go is the right temperature and a suitable place to be. We have to protect them from harming themselves in our captive environments. They have competing drives that make them do things that will kill them. E.g. I want to roam around and find a better place vs. I want to be near this heat source. In the wild, he would roam to a new area and simply find a patch of sun to warm up in there. They sometimes walk miles in the wild.

What size is your indoor enclosure?

In this thread you will find a way to house them outside more of the time, even when weather isn't cooperating. I wrote it specifically with our UK members in mind:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

This thread will explain a lot of the wrong or contradictory info, and also offer lots of help:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Welcome to the forum. Stick around a while and get to know us all. Feel free to ask lots of questions. If something doesn't make sense, ask for more explanation. We want to help.

 

[molliemoo]

There is, I know first hand what a minefield it can be
Everything I’ve learnt here and everything people advise is genuinely the most up to date stuff, providing it’s not a super old thread.

You can’t go wrong using this forum as your single source of information, whereas elsewhere online there’s so many errors and outdated care, it can be more confusing when theres places that offer both good and bad advice.
This is the ultimate tortoise hive mind, made up of so many different experienced owners/breeders from around the world, they’ve spent years perfecting their care through lots of trial and error

Thank you will use this source

 

[S2G]

The UK is similar to the pacific northwest in the US right? Theres keepers here who had theirs outside & brumated in winter. Their experience would be helpful.

You're treating him like you would a cat or dog. His instincts are programmed totally different. Think of him like hes wearing VR goggles. Hes feeling your climate, but VR is showing him this type view of constantly.

 

[molliemoo]

hi sorry for late reply been out of action. Thanks for all you comments much appreciated.. Can I please reclarify my question - its not what Trigger should be doing.. ie not coming into the house/sleeping in my bed (joke !) but WHY. Why does he choose to come in when he has ample of shade, cooler spots, basking areas, etc outside.. just trying to under the behavior ie if we leave the door shut he bangs on it to come in !

Another question - what is the vest chart to track his growth is it McIntryre for a Russian ?

 

[Tom]

hi sorry for late reply been out of action. Thanks for all you comments much appreciated.. Can I please reclarify my question - its not what Trigger should be doing.. ie not coming into the house/sleeping in my bed (joke !) but WHY. Why does he choose to come in when he has ample of shade, cooler spots, basking areas, etc outside.. just trying to under the behavior ie if we leave the door shut he bangs on it to come in !

Another question - what is the vest chart to track his growth is it McIntryre for a Russian ?

No one can answer that for you. Something about the indoors appeals to him, and you let him. Its an area that he has become familiar and comfortable with. Could be temperatures, could be the feeling of safety under a roof instead of open sky above him where tortoise predators often come from, could be habit from last winter.

There is no useful chart for tracking growth. They all grow at vastly different rates and for a wide variety of reasons. If your tortoise is five years old and male, he should be mostly grown. How do you know he is five if you found him?

 

[molliemoo]

hi thanks for your response much appreciated. I didn't find him he was taken to a Vet as 'found'. Spent a few weeks with a foster mum (cant adopt for a certain time incase owners come forward) and both agreed he was 'about 5'.

He is 600g and 17.70cm. Seems very healthy, very active, eats well.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hopefully the above responses can help you start an appropriate space for him