Tortoise hands and legs can't move

[Wanda26]

Hi Everyone,

This is Wanda, with my tortoise Alex.

After his hibernation, my tortoise become slow to move, first I though that's due to the Long sleep, but around 10 days ago, Alex's legs and arms could not move, I tried to put him into warm water, feed him more, and it doesn't help. He still eat a lot like before, I went to the VET today and the following are the examination result, the doctor told me, it's hard for him to survive... She said his kidney seems got severe problems and she asked me to feed him more vegetable, but not too much other advice...

Alex has been with me for 26 years, I can't afford losing him...

The following is the result of the test, anyone give some advice? Thank you.
Wanda

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Wanda:

I'm sorry, but I'm not proficient enough to read or know what your test results are telling us. I DO know that this is a water turtle, not a tortoise. If you've been taking care of this turtle for over 20 years, then you certainly must be doing something right, however, I'd still like to see the enclosure you keep him in. It may give me some ideas on how to help you. For instance, is there a UVB light over the water? Is there a place in the enclosure for him to climb up out of the water to sit under the light? A picture may help answer these questions for me.

 

[Wanda26]

Hi Yvonne,

Thanks for the reply.

I will translate as much as I can for the test result.

Actually, in the past 20 years, I didn't put them into the water that much, coz I always though to give them freedom to walk around is good. and I fed mainly cooked pork, shrimp, fish to him. I tried some vegetable as well, but these year, he doesn't like plants anymore. so I just keep feeding pork and fish.

even the UVB like is new, which I just bought it yesterday, since I put him under the sun sometimes, but during this virus time, I can't go out, so I bought a lamp for him, it's a n UVA and UVB light, I don't have experience on this light, so I even find the book to block some light straight to his eyes, the light seems too strong. and I dare not to keep the light on for too long. this is a self-ballasted mercury UVB lamp. the distance from water is 45 cm. and I turn it off for a while every hour. not sure if this will be a bit harmful in someway.

The conclusion from the VET doctor today is: should not be MBD, but there's a problem in his kidney and liver, due to the longterm high protein food and almost no vegetables.

so the urine acid accumulate in kidney so when he move, his joint feel painful...

I Am also not sure what to do now.

 

[Yvonne G]

The build up of uric acid in the kidneys is NOT because he's been fed too much protein, although that may contribute a little. It's because this turtle is supposed to be living in water. They live in nature in rivers, streams, lakes, etc. not on the dry floor of your house. They get all the exercise they need by swimming around in the water. In the process of living in the water they're drinking and flushing out their kidneys. The best thing you can do for this turtle is buy a good quality turtle sticks and keep him in a large tub of water with a landing dock and a UVB light. The prepared turtle sticks contain the vegetable matter plus the protein the turtle needs to survive:

 

[Wanda26]

Thank you soooooo much Yvonne! Thanks for this clear great advice!

For the moment, he can not move hands and legs, so shall I leave the water shallow so at least he can breath? Any other things I can do to help him to get his hands and legs back to move? I already ordered the stick in the photo you post. About the temperature, will he feel cold if I keep him into the water with room temperature? which is around 15 degree now.

Thank you again Yvonne.

Wanda

 

[Sa Ga]

Definitely keep the water very shallow and maybe prop up his head so he doesn't drown (like maybe put him on a ramp where his head is above water, even if he completely lays it down, but his body is in the water). Check on him frequently and let him dry out completely a few times a day.

Also, dehydration is a terrible problem for kidney injury. Contact your vet and get information on tube feeding him liquids (and get the supplies and instruction how from vet too). Bc he can't move, drinking will be difficult. Make sure his veggies have water on them. Do this as soon as possible. as dehydration can kill in mere days.

 

[Wanda26]

Thank you for all the advices.

I keep him into the warm water, which is around 27C, degree today and keep change that water once it gets cold. Since I don't have a large tub yet. I already bought the food recommanded for him and he didn't seem interested yet, so I mixed the Tetra food with the cooked fish meat he likes, and he ate some. Shall I fed him every day?

I brought him out and put him under the sun today, for around half an hour, since that's all the sun we have today. I turned the UVB light on when home for another 1 hour and give him some rest. I am now drying him and put him onto a towel for a while, I will put him back to the water after half an hour. Am I doing the right thing?

Also, I searched the food data from American Agriculture Dept. and hope to find some Vegetable and fruit with high Calcium and low Protein, so I can mash those Vegetable and fruit into juice and fiber, and put them into the water for keeping him, so even when he doesn't want to eat, he would drink the juice in some way. Am I doing the right thing?

I also giving him some massage on his arms and legs today, since he can't move...

 

[Wanda26]

And When I just Gave him massage again, His left hand joint is swollen, should be the same with the beginning I found, but I didn't pay attention on that joint. maybe that's why that's the most inactive arm? ... prefer the one who's suffering was me...

 

[Sa Ga]

1.) Feed him daily.
2.) Soak him several times daily for at least a 1/2 hour each time. Keep doing the veggies in the water--has he drunk any of it?
3.) Give him as little meat as possible (protein is hard the kidneys). Still give him a little bit, but not much.
4.) UVB light should be on 12 hours per day. Make sure he's kept warm *always* and under the lamp to enough to get enough UVB.
5.) Are you staying in touch w/ your vet? Do you have a follow up appt?
6.) Massage seems like a great idea. Keep that up a couple times a day.

Please keep us posted!

 

[ArmadilloPup]

It may be beneficial to do smaller amounts of food through the day. To get hydration in his diet, you can mash up the pellets with water and add the juice of fish or shrimp to make it smell like food to him. Since it will dissolve, you can feed this on land. When he is healthy again, he should definitely get some of his treats while swimming.

You can ask your vet if Oxbow Critical Care (Herbivore) is okay. It is a powder made of timothy hay and vitamins. I've used it with a lot of sick critters and love it. With turtles, you can mash their regular pellets with it.

If you make just the Critical Care on its own, it is not high in calcium because a lot of herbivores get kidney stones. If the vet thinks that more calcium is necessary, you can add it yourself.

Other folks' advice about heat and water are going to be very important in his recovery. I hope Alex starts to feel better soon!

Edit: Don't leave him in the vegetable water, keep his home pond clean. You can put him in a separate tub if you want to let him soak in his food juice There's actually a similar idea for tortoises called the "carrot soak." I have no clue if it actually works.

 

[Wanda26]

Hi there,

The following are the items Alex exceed the normal standard...actually, much more than normal, I attached the link as well, since I don't know how to explain what is that. Sorry, a bit long. all tougher, there are 4 important items over the limit.

1. AST – I think, it refers to the protein accumulated in the liver is too high. Normal range for turtle is 10-80, but Alex is 224

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartate_transaminase

Aspartate transaminase (AST) or aspartate aminotransferase, also known as AspAT/ASAT/AAT or (serum) glutamic oxaloacetic transaminase (GOT, SGOT), is a pyridoxal phosphate (PLP)-dependent transaminase enzyme (EC 2.6.1.1) that was first described by Arthur Karmen and colleagues in 1954.[2][3][4] AST catalyzes the reversible transfer of an α-amino group between aspartate and glutamate and, as such, is an important enzyme in amino acid metabolism. AST is found in the liver, heart, skeletal muscle, kidneys, brain, and red blood cells. Serum AST level, serum ALT (alanine transaminase) level, and their ratio (AST/ALT ratio) are commonly measured clinically as biomarkers for liver health. The tests are part of blood panels.

2. UA normal 2-7, Alex 11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid

3. NA+ normal 130-150, Alex 128

4. UREA normal 6.8-11.8, Alex 43.2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid

Urea, also known as carbamide, is an organic compound with chemical formula CO(NH2)2. This amide has two –NH2groups joined by a carbonyl (C=O) functional group.

Urea serves an important role in the metabolism of nitrogen-containing compounds by animals and is the main nitrogen-containing substance in the urine of mammals. It is a colorless, odorless solid, highly soluble in water, and practically non-toxic (LD50 is 15 g/kg for rats).[5] Dissolved in water, it is neither acidic nor alkaline. The body uses it in many processes, most notably nitrogen excretion. The liver forms it by combining two ammonia molecules (NH3) with a carbon dioxide (CO2) molecule in the urea cycle. Urea is widely used in fertilizers as a source of nitrogen (N) and is an important raw material for the chemical industry.

Friedrich Wöhler's discovery, in 1828, that urea can be produced from inorganic starting materials, was an important conceptual milestone in chemistry. It showed, for the first time, that a substance, previously known only as a byproduct of life, could be synthesized in the laboratory, without biological starting materials, thereby contradicting the widely held doctrine vitalism, which stated that only living things could produce the chemicals of life.

 

[Wanda26]

I Do went and see the. VET for the blood test and X-Ray, and after that, the VET told me, he's not sure if he will survive under those high numbers...I was so sad. But he still eat, and I will try whatever I could.

From those numbers, I think that means his Liver and Kidney both get injured?

Thank you all for all those valuable advice.
He has been eating pork and fish for long time that he refuse vegetable and Tetra. So I mixed Tetra with very little amount of fish today and fed him, twice today, he ate. the amount for each time is as big as half of my thumb.

but he didn't poop today. I put him under the sun for all together around 2 hours and keep change the water into warm water. massage his hands and legs 5 times today, 10 mins each time...I am not sure if I massage in the comfortable way to him, but I try not to move his joints, I press the paws and loose, when I was doing that, he close his eyes for a while...hope that means he s enjoying that.

He's in the water for almost whole day, and I take him out from the water now since I am going to sleep and I can't change the warm water for him once he gets cold. I will sleep for 7 hours, I put him on the tortoise doll. is that fine?

I tried to talk to him more, hope he understand and be strong.

Please let me know anything I can do better.
Thank you.

 

[Sa Ga]

I'm so glad you got him in to a vet!

Honestly, the fact that he can't really move, and now he's barely eating or pooping is worrisome. Is he showing any improvement at all? (More alertness? Eating better than before? Moving anything at all? Etc.)

Keeping his protein down (absolutely minimal meat possible) and hydration up is absolutely imperative for compromised kidneys. I know this from Morla's situation.

It sounds like he may have gout (Google it)-it's caused by high uric acid in the blood. Call your vet. I wonder if you could get some anti-inflammatory medication from the Vet? Alex may not be eating or moving because he hurts. And now he's not pooping because he's not eating. That's not good....we want to keep that moving along! (He doesn't need to be in water ALL day, and in fact, you'll want to make sure he's staying very warm all the time, which I don't believe his water should be more than lukewarm. Soak him for the 30 minutes several times per day, bit keep him under his basking/warm room temp all other times. Being cold will also make him not eat/system slow down.)

He will have the liver and kidney issue most likely for life, but if you can keep up the care you re giving, and keep him warm, fed, and hydrated, you can possibly help make him the most comfortable possible. And if he is not getting better or continues to decline, there may be the possibility that putting him to sleep would be the kindest thing you can do.

My heart is with you, and please keep us posted. I'll be praying to the powers that be that things go as well as they can. ❤

 

[Wanda26]

Thank you, it's very kind of all of you. Thank you.

Yes, the doctor said it's Gout.
Alex actually eats and quite eager to eat, I dare not to feed too much even I mixed little cooked fish and Tetra. He didn't poop yesterday but he pooped two days earlier. I will keep feed him the mixed food today, try to put more Tetra food, if he likes it, I will feed more?

It's morning here, Vege bath is coming. ok, I will asked about the anti inflammatory today, that would be injection or table for eating?

 

[Sa Ga]

Thank you, it's very kind of all of you. Thank you.

Yes, the doctor said it's Gout.
Alex actually eats and quite eager to eat, I dare not to feed too much even I mixed little cooked fish and Tetra. He didn't poop yesterday but he pooped two days earlier. I will keep feed him the mixed food today, try to put more Tetra food, if he likes it, I will feed more?

It's morning here, Vege bath is coming. ok, I will asked about the anti inflammatory today, that would be injection or table for eating?

I'm not sure how the vet would do it. But there are treatments for people w/ go it, so it's likely there is something for pets too.

 

[Sa Ga]

With four, not go it.

Darn autocorrect.

 

[Wanda26]

I'm not sure how the vet would do it. But there are treatments for people w/ go it, so it's likely there is something for pets too.

The Doctor asked me to take him home and put him into the water, and gave me a bottle of Ferrous glycate and folic acid, ask me to put that into his food every day. 1ml/ day.

and suggest me to buy some calcium bite and allopurinol Tablets, which is for human being.

That's all from the VET. I am also looking for another VET. but many are closed during this virus time.

 

[Wanda26]

I drive Alex out and put him under the sun in a park for around 4 hours today. And here is his Vegetable bath, I didn't expect that, he actually seems drinking that time and time, hope this would help...

I dare not to feed too much, so I put very little fish mixed with the Tetra food, around 1:15 portion and he ate them all. without the fish smell, he refuse to eat. but so far the fish still works.

Here are the photo of his vegetable bath.

I am afraid the vegetable got the stain of pesticide, so I put the vegetable into boiling water for 2 mins.

 

[Rianne]

Why do you cook his fish/shrimp & pork? I would think raw fish/shrimp would be better nutrition, but forget the pork.His kidney disease dictates no protein for a while or very tiny amount and hopefully when he gets hungry enough he will eat vegetables. Do not cook his food. Gout is urea crystals that settles in tiny joints ( as in our toes - his limbs. Humans are given allupurinol to desolve the crystals.
Because of a turtles slow metabolism this will take months to get better and only on a very strict diet and TLC. (tender loving care) Best Wishes for your baby.

 

[Sa Ga]

Make sure you have proper dosing for all meds!