Tortoise laws & The Vet

[carbonated]

I've had my tortoise for about 2 months now; he was about 3-4 moths when I got him. He had some shell damage when I first adopted him and it doesnt seem to affect him, though it concerned me a bit...now he's taken to sleeping really long hours (18 last night...) and in kind of awkward positions. He's eating and drinking, but I'm a bit concerned regardless. I want to take him to the vet for a general check-up; but here's my question: He's well under the 4 inches that I keep hearing referenced as being the minimum to own. Probably closer to 2 inches. I'm sure whatever vet I took him to would be happy to treat him, but would I get any static for having a tort under that size?

Just wondering what to expect. I'm in California if that changes things, and he's a Hermann's not a Desert tortoise (which I know are protected by law)

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi carbonated:

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!

May we know your name and where you are?

The 4" rule is a Food and Drug Administration rule and shouldn't be a problem for you at the vet. It basically says that a business can't sell a turtle/tortoise unless it measures 4" from front to back. So its perfectly legal for people to have baby turtles and tortoises in their care.

 

[CLMoss]

Interesting... I had a lot of trouble trying to buy a small tortoise via mail from some of the fla. breeders. They told me that the tortoise had to be over 4 inches. I had to find a local breeder to sell me a baby SL Star. I am not a business.

~C

 

[Utah Lynn]

But the breeder is a business.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I've had my tortoise for about 2 months now; he was about 3-4 moths when I got him. He had some shell damage when I first adopted him and it doesnt seem to affect him, though it concerned me a bit...now he's taken to sleeping really long hours (18 last night...) and in kind of awkward positions. He's eating and drinking, but I'm a bit concerned regardless. I want to take him to the vet for a general check-up; but here's my question: He's well under the 4 inches that I keep hearing referenced as being the minimum to own. Probably closer to 2 inches. I'm sure whatever vet I took him to would be happy to treat him, but would I get any static for having a tort under that size?

Just wondering what to expect. I'm in California if that changes things, and he's a Hermann's not a Desert tortoise (which I know are protected by law)

The law is about selling, not owning (and, besides, is easily circumvented...just say you're selling under 4" tiurtles for scientific/education purposes! )

Your pet is perfectly legal, and a trip to the vet, from time nto time, is a good idea.

 

[Shelly]

Please don't let the vet give him a vitamin injection for no reason.

 

[Tom]

I agree with all of the above.

 

[CLMoss]

But the breeder is a business.

But the breeders in fla. are selling tortoises under 4 inches... I guess that it is the NY law... What I was told by the breeder who did sell me the baby, is that the fla. breeders can sell to a private party; however, they can not sell to a retail business.

Thanks, C

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Claudia:

Please believe me when I say the restriction applies to everyone in the United States. It is a Department of Food and Agriculture rule, and that is a National agency. I'm giving you the straight scoop, and I know what I'm talking about. It is perfectly ok for you and I to have a tiny baby turtle/tortoise. It is perfectly ok for you and I to SELL a tiny baby turtle/tortoise. It is against the law for a business...someone in the business of selling turtles and tortoises, to sell a turtle/tortoise that measures under 4".

Please pay particular attention to "Exceptions" section d, 2:

http://www.tortoise.org/general/4inch.html

 

[ascott]

All suggestions and direction offered thus far is perfect and correct....also....I too specifically request you not allow a vitamin a injection...if your vet says it would be a good thing to do keep in mind you can get increases of vitamin a by food......

Also...even if you had a captive baby desert tortoise you could still comfortably take it to the vet without issue...they are not required to be issued a permit until age 2....

 

[CLMoss]

Hi Claudia:

Please believe me when I say the restriction applies to everyone in the United States. It is a Department of Food and Agriculture rule, and that is a National agency. I'm giving you the straight scoop, and I know what I'm talking about. It is perfectly ok for you and I to have a tiny baby turtle/tortoise. It is perfectly ok for you and I to SELL a tiny baby turtle/tortoise. It is against the law for a business...someone in the business of selling turtles and tortoises, to sell a turtle/tortoise that measures under 4".

Please pay particular attention to "Exceptions" section d, 2:

http://www.tortoise.org/general/4inch.html

Thank you Yvonne! Now I understand. But, all of these businesses are selling very young babies... And they advertise this information on their websites. I will read the "exception" section more carefully.

I will have my baby "Becky" in a few weeks! It took me a lot of research to find this breeder and he is only 30 minutes away!

 

[dmarcus]

Somewhere in there add they will most likely have the wording "these tortoises/turtles are sold for scientific/education purposes only"

 

[Yvonne G]

Unless businesses get reported for selling under-sized turtles/tortoises, they never get caught. There is no size-squad who goes out and does checks on businesses to make sure they're within the law. They just don't have the man power to have someone who's job is just to check. If you report someone, the FDA will ask the SPCA to go find out for them. There is no size police.

 

[CLMoss]

Somewhere in there add they will most likely have the wording "these tortoises/turtles are sold for scientific/education purposes only"

Rep Mart was selling me the tortoise (my master card was ready) and as soon as I mentioned that I was in NY, they told me that they could not sell it to me... I was ready to look for any papers that they needed from the Dept of Agriculture so they could sell me the tortoise but, they did not have the information for me. I did call the Dept of Agriculture and they never retured my call. I was lucky to find "Larry."

 

[dmarcus]

Somewhere in there add they will most likely have the wording "these tortoises/turtles are sold for scientific/education purposes only"

Rep Mart was selling me the tortoise (my master card was ready) and as soon as I mentioned that I was in NY, they told me that they could not sell it to me... I was ready to look for any papers that they needed from the Dept of Agriculture so they could sell me the tortoise but, they did not have the information for me. I did call the Dept of Agriculture and they never retured my call. I was lucky to find "Larry."

I think the breeder was playing it safe in your case because of the need for a permit for some tortoises or turtles. I think the only thing thats illegal is the importing of Eastern Box turtles into the state. However don't quote me on that because that law may have changed....

 

[EricIvins]

I think you're getting things confused with State and Federal Law.......

You need to research your State and Local laws, because New York has many Herp laws that were put into effect over the past few years........Those are both State and Local laws, and some of the Local laws are governed by the USDA. The Laws governed by the USDA are for Turtles being marketed for Human consumption though, which falls into a grey area where enforcement and jurisdiction gets convoluded........

You have to be careful selling anything to people in New York and California - Lots of Laws to keep track of........

 

[dmmj]

I am gonna go OT a little and surprise a lot of people but there are not a lot of laws regarding herps in california. Besides protecting the native species, ( CDT and pond turtle) and not allowing snappers, I can't think of any more.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

But the breeder is a business.

But the breeders in fla. are selling tortoises under 4 inches... I guess that it is the NY law... What I was told by the breeder who did sell me the baby, is that the fla. breeders can sell to a private party; however, they can not sell to a retail business.

Thanks, C

Like I said, the law is AMAZINGLY easy for businesses to get around...no idea why/if it's even enforced!

 

[Madkins007]

Ummm.... to everyone who thinks they can buy an under 4" chelonian from a business and use the 'science, education, or display' exception- that is not usually true. The actual exception under discussion reads, in full...
"(d)Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets." (emphasis mine)

In other words, you'd better be able to prove you have a valid scientific, exhibition (as in zoo), or educational purpose (class pet is probably not enough). That last bit clearly states that use as a pet does NOT qualify as any of the other points.

We in this end of the hobby may not like this rule, but it is indeed serving several good points. Nesting sites are not being strip-mined of eggs and babies so much any more, especially in the US. Millions of tiny chelonians are not dying in shipment, or being purchased by people with no idea how to care for them and dying after a few months of asinine cares. Many species that were endangered in the US because of the food and pet trades are safer today because there is less profit in babies and eggs.

Just because a law is not enforced perfectly is no reason to get rid of it. No law is enforced perfectly.

Please understand that the above comments are not meant to imply that I think the law or its enforcement is perfect or even necessarily a good idea

 

[carbonated]

Wow thanks everyone for the replies, great info! As an aside, what is the ideal humidity for a small Hermann's tortoise? I'm wondering if thats part of whats causing him to be lethargic.