Tortoise seems worse after a vet visit

[Tarz]

Hi all (long post apologies)

I have a Hermann tortoise which I have owned for 10 years. Originally the petshop we brought it from said it was mostly likely a male based on the size
It is roughly 12/13 years old now and I have been keeping it in a 4 foot heated vivarium with a heat lamp and UV strip light. Straw pellet bedding.
The UV light is on for 12 hours a day and the heat lamp on 30°C
I've never had any issues within the years of caring for it other than squeaking (which I thought was males just being territorial as there was no runny nose) until recently I had noticed a few concerns.
•squeaking (as mentioned)
•enlarged scales on the feet
•flakey sides of shell

After making an initial appointment with the vet I had also noticed that it seems to be constipated. On some days eating normally and other days hardly eating at all. It has not passed any faeces for a week so far. Last time this happened a few warm baths did the trick but as of yet it hasn't worked.

I was told that I wouldn't need to take it to the vets as often as a dog or cat. Though I know 10 years is far too long to wait.

During the check up I was told it is in fact a female. The squeaking and other concerns I had were dismissed as nothing. There is no runny nose or watery eyes to suggest a respiratory infection so the squeaking was said to be nothing. I was advised to look into changing the vivarium for a tortoise table too. Which I do plan on saving up for.
An ultrasound was taken and I was informed that the ovaries were surrounded with fluid and there were particles covering the ovaries that are enlarged. (I don't remember the specific name of what the tissue around the ovaries were called)

I was also advised to come back in 2 months to see if the ovaries improved and if not then an operation may be the only option.

She said that it has grown slightly too quick in size for her age because she hasn't been hibernated but overall it wasn't a concern. Although I was stilI advised that I should start hibernating the tortoise.

I was told when I had first brought her that I should avoid hibernating as it can cause too many complications. As long as I can provide the right heat and UV conditions I wouldn't need to hibernate.

As I have never hibernated her before I read the leaflet the vet gave me and it said that I should starve the tortoise for 4 weeks, reduce the heat and UV gradually before putting it in the fridge

It was a shock to me
I understand the need for the fridge to regulate the temperature but to suddenly starve a tortoise for 4 weeks seems so harsh and cruel
I understand in the wild they have no choice but to do this to survive, but in captivity it is different

Before the visit to the vets she was slightly lethargic but still moving around and I had put that down to not having any bowel movements
Though after being told she has ovary problems this could also be the cause

However since coming back from the vets she has stayed in hiding and only came out to eat a small amount of food before going back under her log


The vets I visited were a specialist Reptile vets.
I am looking for a second opinion/experience as I fear that having never hibernating her and the age she is now that if I force her into hibernating she will not survive it
I also have concerns as the vets didn't give me any advice on her not pooping
And lastly she seems alot worse after visiting

She had her beak and claws trimmed and her ultrasound done in another room
Usually eating Cuttlefish bone would naturally keep her break worn down but she has refused to eat it for a long while now
I'm not suggesting they have caused her to become more ill but she seems to have become worse
I expect her to be slightly shook up after her visit but it's been a whole day of her not walking around which is unusual for her

Any advise is much appreciated
If you need more info please ask

 

[TaylorTortoise]

Pictures of the tortoise, enclosure please?

 

[Tom]

You've gotten a lot of the wrong care info. Pet shops and vets are infamous for this. The purpose of telling you all this is not to offend you or hurt your feelings, it is to help you understand how to take better care of your tortoise. I'll point out the issues I see one at a time from the text of your post, and then I'll link the correct care info for you. Questions are welcome.

1. A 4 foot vivarium is WAYYYY too small. This is a likely cause or contributor to the constipation. Like a horse, torts are dependent on locomotion to help keep things moving along in the GI tract. There is not nearly enough room to walk in a 4 foot enclosure. 4x8 feet is the minimum indoors, and the enclosure should be MUCH larger outside in favorable weather.
2. Straw pellet bedding is not appropriate and does not meet your tortoises needs. Switch to orchid bark or cypress mulch. It needs to be kept damp ad you can't do that with straw pellets.
3. 12 hours. day is too much time for the UV. It is't like that outside. There is hardly any UV in the morning and afternoon, but there is a big spike mid day. Best to simulate that.
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

4. Long warm soaks, and car rides should break everything loose. Your tortoise may be impacted if those aren't working. The X-ray should have shown that if it was the case and your vet knows how to read it, which most don't.
5. There is no reason to take a tortoise to the vet if everything is fine. You got that part right. Vets often do more harm than good, because almost all of them are ignorant of correct tortoise care.
6. I've never heard of the ovarian problem you describe, but I've often seen stories of vets making stuff like this up. I don't know which is the case here. Either is possible.
7. If a tortoise is cared for correctly and fed the right foods, they can not "grow too quickly for their age". That is old wrong non-sense, and its a clue about where your vet stands on tortoise knowledge.
8. Brumation, done correctly, does not cause complications. It is normal and natural for some species, and I recommend it too. Having said that, it is not "necessary" and you don't have to if you don't want to.
9. It would be harsh and cruel to starve a mammalian primate for a month. That is not how reptiles and tortoises work. Don't let your emotions hamper good decision making for your reptile.
10. Did the vet give the tortoise any injections?
11. If the beak and claws were overgrown, that could be an indication that something is wrong in the care and/or feeding routine. They might not have needed trimming. Got any "before" pics?

Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Tarz]

Pictures of the tortoise, enclosure please?

The photo of her in her log is how she's been all day. There's also photos of her shell that look slightly dark orangey/brown on her scutes that weren't ever that dark before. Slightly discoloured patches on the sides of her shell too.

Her scales on her feet are overgrown and curved
On her plastron where I have circled: When I bath her those areas show up pink lines

I was told that all of these things are nothing to worry about. Except that I should invest in a tortoise table instead of the vivarium

- Thank you

 

[Tarz]

You've gotten a lot of the wrong care info. Pet shops and vets are infamous for this. The purpose of telling you all this is not to offend you or hurt your feelings, it is to help you understand how to take better care of your tortoise. I'll point out the issues I see one at a time from the text of your post, and then I'll link the correct care info for you. Questions are welcome.

1. A 4 foot vivarium is WAYYYY too small. This is a likely cause or contributor to the constipation. Like a horse, torts are dependent on locomotion to help keep things moving along in the GI tract. There is not nearly enough room to walk in a 4 foot enclosure. 4x8 feet is the minimum indoors, and the enclosure should be MUCH larger outside in favorable weather.
2. Straw pellet bedding is not appropriate and does not meet your tortoises needs. Switch to orchid bark or cypress mulch. It needs to be kept damp ad you can't do that with straw pellets.
3. 12 hours. day is too much time for the UV. It is't like that outside. There is hardly any UV in the morning and afternoon, but there is a big spike mid day. Best to simulate that.
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

4. Long warm soaks, and car rides should break everything loose. Your tortoise may be impacted if those aren't working. The X-ray should have shown that if it was the case and your vet knows how to read it, which most don't.
5. There is no reason to take a tortoise to the vet if everything is fine. You got that part right. Vets often do more harm than good, because almost all of them are ignorant of correct tortoise care.
6. I've never heard of the ovarian problem you describe, but I've often seen stories of vets making stuff like this up. I don't know which is the case here. Either is possible.
7. If a tortoise is cared for correctly and fed the right foods, they can not "grow too quickly for their age". That is old wrong non-sense, and its a clue about where your vet stands on tortoise knowledge.
8. Brumation, done correctly, does not cause complications. It is normal and natural for some species, and I recommend it too. Having said that, it is not "necessary" and you don't have to if you don't want to.
9. It would be harsh and cruel to starve a mammalian primate for a month. That is not how reptiles and tortoises work. Don't let your emotions hamper good decision making for your reptile.
10. Did the vet give the tortoise any injections?
11. If the beak and claws were overgrown, that could be an indication that something is wrong in the care and/or feeding routine. They might not have needed trimming. Got any "before" pics?

Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Hi thank you
I posted some pics of the vivarium and how she is post vet check up. The beak was definitely overgrown before as she stopped eating her Cuttlefish bone.
As you said alot of places give the wrong info and this would've been the case. As the petshop sold us the tank and said it was suitable along with telling me that 12 hours of UV were needed. I always thought I needed a bigger area for her as she grew but they assured me that the size of the tank would still be okay for her when she is fully grown (pretty sure she is now) I used to use wood chippings for the bedding but this caused alot more squeaking as she breathed and thought that the sawdust may have caused respiratory issues. That's why I switched to Straw pellets and since then there's been less squeaks when she breaths.
I also thought that if she was impacted that it would of shown up on the scan. The operation the vet advised would cost £800 and obviously that's a pretty steep amount so I want to make sure it's right but also its a major surgery and therefore wouldn't want to go through with it if the diagnosis is wrong.

No injections were given
It has never been wormed either (the questionnaire prior to the check up asked if it had been)

As far as the diet she said that if she no longer ate her Cuttlefish to introduce more hard veg to keep her beak short
I also feed her soft high fibre tortoise pellets along with her other food every other day, the vet said that I should stop feeding her those and to only feed her them rarely as she feels they offer no fibre
Other than that her diet is okay according to the vet

She hasa any daily mixture of:
•Kale, watercress, lambs lettuce, rocket
(Cabbage on occasion)

Veg a few times a week
(any or mixture if the following)
• Carrots, red/yellow peppers

Fruit on occasion
(Any or mixture of the following)
•tomatoes, apples, strawberries, blueberries,grapes, oranges, cherries
(Pineapple rarely)

Usually get her out in the back garden everyday in the summer if I can to give her natural UV
I always bring her in if it starts raining as the raindrops are cold and I'm not sure if it would make her ill?

 

[wellington]

After you make the needed changes Tom mentioned, change the dishes out for a clay saucer large enough for her to fit into for the water and a flat piece of slate or ruff tile for the food dish. The slate or ruff tile will help keep the beak filed and easier for her to get her food. Think of them in the wild eating. They don't have to reach up and over the sides of dishes to eat or drink. Other then the enclosure and the things in it needing to he fixed, she looks fine to me.

 

[Tarz]

Hi thank you
I posted some pics of the vivarium and how she is post vet check up. The beak was definitely overgrown before as she stopped eating her Cuttlefish bone.
As you said alot of places give the wrong info and this would've been the case. As the petshop sold us the tank and said it was suitable along with telling me that 12 hours of UV were needed. I always thought I needed a bigger area for her as she grew but they assured me that the size of the tank would still be okay for her when she is fully grown (pretty sure she is now) I used to use wood chippings for the bedding but this caused alot more squeaking as she breathed and thought that the sawdust may have caused respiratory issues. That's why I switched to Straw pellets and since then there's been less squeaks when she breaths.
I also thought that if she was impacted that it would of shown up on the scan. The operation the vet advised would cost £800 and obviously that's a pretty steep amount so I want to make sure it's right but also its a major surgery and therefore wouldn't want to go through with it if the diagnosis is wrong.

No injections were given
It has never been wormed either (the questionnaire prior to the check up asked if it had been)

As far as the diet she said that if she no longer ate her Cuttlefish to introduce more hard veg to keep her beak short
I also feed her soft high fibre tortoise pellets along with her other food every other day, the vet said that I should stop feeding her those and to only feed her them rarely as she feels they offer no fibre
Other than that her diet is okay according to the vet

She hasa any daily mixture of:
•Kale, watercress, lambs lettuce, rocket
(Cabbage on occasion)

Veg a few times a week
(any or mixture if the following)
• Carrots, red/yellow peppers

Fruit on occasion
(Any or mixture of the following)
•tomatoes, apples, strawberries, blueberries,grapes, oranges, cherries
(Pineapple rarely)

Usually get her out in the back garden everyday in the summer if I can to give her natural UV
I always bring her in if it starts raining as the raindrops are cold and I'm not sure if it would make her ill?

She also refuses to eat wild plants in the garden (Dandelions etc) or dried leaves/flowers that you can buy in the petshops

 

[wellington]

Do not feed her any fruit. They can not have it. It messes with their gut. This may be part or all of her problem.
Any proper foods she won't eat needs to be introduced slowly, buy chopping it up small and mixing it in with her regular proper foods that you also chop up small. Spritz with water to make it all kinda stick to each other. Slowly add more and more of the food you are trying to get her to eat and less of the regular food. Do this slowly over days even sometimes weeks.

 

[Tarz]

After you make the needed changes Tom mentioned, change the dishes out for a clay saucer large enough for her to fit into for the water and a flat piece of slate or ruff tile for the food dish. The slate or ruff tile will help keep the beak filed and easier for her to get her food. Think of them in the wild eating. They don't have to reach up and over the sides of dishes to eat or drink. Other then the enclosure and the things in it needing to he fixed, she looks fine to me.

I've never thought about using a slate before it makes sense thank you ?

 

[TaylorTortoise]

The photo of her in her log is how she's been all day. There's also photos of her shell that look slightly dark orangey/brown on her scutes that weren't ever that dark before. Slightly discoloured patches on the sides of her shell too.

Her scales on her feet are overgrown and curved
On her plastron where I have circled: When I bath her those areas show up pink lines

I was told that all of these things are nothing to worry about. Except that I should invest in a tortoise table instead of the vivarium

- Thank you

Thank you for posting pictures. Tortoise looks happy and healthy. Needs some minor adjustments.
I highly suggest you invest in better substrate.
coco coir, organic top soil etc repti bark are perfect choices. That substrate you are using looks like rabbit pellets and can be an impaction risk.

vivarium is OK for a short period of early stages of living for torts- definitely not long termed. (Unless big enough)

The red light needs to be changed. It messes with the tortoises sleep cycle. I’d advise switching your tort over to clock work like humans. Lights on and bright in the morning, on for 12-14 hrs a day lights off when it gets dark where you are from.
Your tortoise will start to adapt a schedule similar to you if you do this. Wake up when you typically would and of course when lights are off or before you even turn them off already asleep ready to hit the hay. I have both of my torts on clock work with day/ night cycle throughout the entire year.

 

[TaylorTortoise]

Do we know what the discoloring patches are on the right side of the scutes?

 

[Tarz]

Do we know what the discoloring patches are on the right side of the scutes?

The straw bedding is ProRep branded it has a Hermann tortoise on the packaging and says its digestible if eaten as when it gets wet it's breaks down into tiny fibres. Again it's only what I've been told to use☹
As for the discoloration my initial thoughts were shell rot or patchy shedding. The vet said it was just protein?? And not to worry about it. It doesn't look right to me though.

The white areas used to be the number "50" the petshop has painted on as an identification number. They said it would wash off but 10 years later it's still there. Looks like they used correction fluid which is impossible to remove

 

[TaylorTortoise]

The straw bedding is ProRep branded it has a Hermann tortoise on the packaging and says its digestible if eaten as when it gets wet it's breaks down into tiny fibres. Again it's only what I've been told to use☹
As for the discoloration my initial thoughts were shell rot or patchy shedding. The vet said it was just protein?? And not to worry about it. It doesn't look right to me though.

That type of substrate is not suitable for any tortoise. Personally. We can’t always go by where we purchase things. We need to replicate their actual habitats to make our animals happy.
Sure, we can sleep on the floor, but.. wouldn’t you want to sleep on your bed?

tortoises like to feel safe, comfortable when they have substrate to borrow/ hide. That substrate will not work in that case.

 

[wellington]

Pet stores are there to make money
They will tell you anything in order to sell it to you.
The company's that make this stuff, well same thing. They are out for money. Most of the stuff they sell is either crap or advertised for the wrong thing.
Take a gold fish bowl. That size bowl is not truly big enough for one gold fish. But they sold millions plus, not caring that the poor fish was never going to survive long in that little bowl.
Same with the viv the pet store sold you. Way to small for an adult tortoise. That's like you living in your bathroom. They made their money and that's all they are about. Not learning the proper ways to care for the animals.
This forum, the members here get paid nothing for their time and knowledge. For the best care possible for your tort, forget what the store or your vet told you and follow what the members here are suggesting.

 

[Tarz]

Thank you for posting pictures. Tortoise looks happy and healthy. Needs some minor adjustments.
I highly suggest you invest in better substrate.
coco coir, organic top soil etc repti bark are perfect choices. That substrate you are using looks like rabbit pellets and can be an impaction risk.

vivarium is OK for a short period of early stages of living for torts- definitely not long termed. (Unless big enough)

The red light needs to be changed. It messes with the tortoises sleep cycle. I’d advise switching your tort over to clock work like humans. Lights on and bright in the morning, on for 12-14 hrs a day lights off when it gets dark where you are from.
Your tortoise will start to adapt a schedule similar to you if you do this. Wake up when you typically would and of course when lights are off or before you even turn them off already asleep ready to hit the hay. I have both of my torts on clock work with day/ night cycle throughout the entire year.

The UV light switches off at 8pm
As Tom says I'll need to change the duration as its on a set timer for 12 hours a day (8am-8pm)
When that switches off its dark other than the red heat lamp
I do have a ceramic heat bulb which gives out no light. I found that she marched up and down the tank all night when she didn't have her red light. And slept more easily with the red light?
I will change it back to the ceramic one though ?

 

[Jan A]

The straw bedding is ProRep branded it has a Hermann tortoise on the packaging and says its digestible if eaten as when it gets wet it's breaks down into tiny fibres. Again it's only what I've been told to use☹
As for the discoloration my initial thoughts were shell rot or patchy shedding. The vet said it was just protein?? And not to worry about it. It doesn't look right to me though.

The white areas used to be the number "50" the petshop has painted on as an identification number. They said it would wash off but 10 years later it's still there. Looks like they used correction fluid which is impossible to remove

You have a lot of advice to consider & reading to do. I just wanted to say welcome to the forum. We have quite a few forum members in the UK who can help with dietary suggestions & other issues. Keep coming back with questions because we are here to help. So welcome.

 

[Tarz]

You have a lot of advice to consider & reading to do. I just wanted to say welcome to the forum. We have quite a few forum members in the UK who can help with dietary suggestions & other issues. Keep coming back with questions because we are here to help. So welcome.

Thank you I have got a lot to think about and I'm really annoyed but I guess not surprised that the shops/vets have given me the wrong or misleading info. Really appreciate the info I've got so far from everyone.
As far as tortoise tables and top soil/coco coir or cypress mulch. Which would be the best substrate out of these or should it be a mixture of all? If I were to use a wooden table how would I stop the wood from rotting from the damp soil, are the tables already treated with a coating on top of the wood?. And how deep should the substrate be?

Sorry for so many questions
Again I was told that soil and damp conditions weren't suitable for a Hermann but moreso for different subspecies. So want to make sure I can make everything right - thank you!

@Tom @TaylorTortoise @wellington

 

[Jan A]

Thank you I have got a lot to think about and I'm really annoyed but I guess not surprised that the shops/vets have given me the wrong or misleading info. Really appreciate the info I've got so far from everyone.
As far as tortoise tables and top soil/coco coir or cypress mulch. Which would be the best substrate out of these or should it be a mixture of all? If I were to use a wooden table how would I stop the wood from rotting from the damp soil, are the tables already treated with a coating on top of the wood?. And how deep should the substrate be?

Sorry for so many questions
Again I was told that soil and damp conditions weren't suitable for a Hermann but moreso for different subspecies. So want to make sure I can make everything right - thank you!

@Tom @TaylorTortoise @wellington

A lot of us in the States use fine orchid bark (fir bark), coca coir, a combo of the 2 or in combo with cypress mulch. It does depend on what you can locate where you are. Usually 4-5 inches of substrate. It gives room for your tort to burrow. It also gives you the ability to pour water into the bottom of the substrate to keep humidity levels up while giving the tort dry substrate on top to lay on.

If you are using a wooden enclosure, then yes, it has to be treated to withstand damp substrate and/or most people line the enclosure with a shower liner or pool liner to protect the wood.

As you will see from the care sheets, your tort still needs humidity, not high humidity, drinking water, soaks, etc. Most everyone here who did not find TF first has gotten bad, outdated or just wrong advice, even from vets.

You tackle these better care choices as quickly but as best you can. Members like @Lyn W can tell you where to buy things online or in the UK.

 

[Tom]

Thank you for posting pictures. Tortoise looks happy and healthy. Needs some minor adjustments.
I highly suggest you invest in better substrate.
coco coir, organic top soil etc repti bark are perfect choices. That substrate you are using looks like rabbit pellets and can be an impaction risk.

vivarium is OK for a short period of early stages of living for torts- definitely not long termed. (Unless big enough)

The red light needs to be changed. It messes with the tortoises sleep cycle. I’d advise switching your tort over to clock work like humans. Lights on and bright in the morning, on for 12-14 hrs a day lights off when it gets dark where you are from.
Your tortoise will start to adapt a schedule similar to you if you do this. Wake up when you typically would and of course when lights are off or before you even turn them off already asleep ready to hit the hay. I have both of my torts on clock work with day/ night cycle throughout the entire year.

Organic top soil is not a good substrate and should not be recommended. Bought-in-a-bag soil should not be used for tortoise substrate.

 

[Tom]

I used to use wood chippings for the bedding but this caused alot more squeaking as she breathed and thought that the sawdust may have caused respiratory issues.

Wood chippings are not good either. Any substrate is going to be dusty and irritating when dry. That is why you need to use the correct substrate and keep it damp. The dampness adds much needed humidity, and also prevents dust.

Please read the bit about the four elements of heating and lighting. You should not be using a red bulb and it should not be dark when the UV bulb is off. All the info you need to do it right is in post number 3 above.