Tortoise seems worse after vet visit

Tom

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Wow lots of new information for me. I appreciate your insight and how knowledgeable on his species you are.
Right now I am in the process of building him an outdoor house /box , it doesn't have a roof yet and its still a work in progress. I definitely built his indoor house in a rush just to have a place to put him since it gets a little nice at night I was afraid of leaving him outside, especially when I saw he had snot . Also I hate the plastic grass myself, im in a rental. But I did get a whole bag of grass seeds and was planning to have real grass soon. I do have a nice patch of wild grass in the yard he hangs out in and eats. That blue boulder is his humping rock lol.
I ordered some cypress mulch , I will ditch the dirt. Thank you so much for your helpfulness. I'm still feeling lost sometimes , especially since his previous owner fed him fruit everyday (i know that cant be good) but now I know it is not good for him.
I'm taking him to the vet in an hour to look into another treatment for his snot, hopefully he can get better soon
Be careful with vets. Most of them know very little about tortoises. They treat symptoms without discovering and correcting causes. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and most vets learn about tortoise care from the same wrong sources that everyone else learns about them from.

@zovick has decades of tortoise experience and is also a human dentist. This means he has knowledge and experience with meds, treatment, and physiology that most of us don't, and also many decades of first hand experience treating tortoises. I would strongly suggest taking his advice over the vets. I say this based on my own decades of dealing with chelonians and multiple exotic vets. And I don't say it lightly. Having Zovick posting here is a gift we should all be grateful for.
 

zovick

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Be careful with vets. Most of them know very little about tortoises. They treat symptoms without discovering and correcting causes. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and most vets learn about tortoise care from the same wrong sources that everyone else learns about them from.

@zovick has decades of tortoise experience and is also a human dentist. This means he has knowledge and experience with meds, treatment, and physiology that most of us don't, and also many decades of first hand experience treating tortoises. I would strongly suggest taking his advice over the vets. I say this based on my own decades of dealing with chelonians and multiple exotic vets. And I don't say it lightly. Having Zovick posting here is a gift we should all be grateful for.
Thanks, Tom. I appreciate the kind words and your vote of confidence.

Believe it or not, 2021 is my 50th year of being a practicing dentist and I started keeping tortoises 13 years before that!
 

Tom

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Thanks, Tom. I appreciate the kind words and your vote of confidence.

Believe it or not, 2021 is my 50th year of being a practicing dentist and I started keeping tortoises 13 years before that!
Psssshhhh... I know. {Waves hand dismissively...}

That's why you are the GODFATHER.

You were breeding tortoises long before I was even born. And at a time when few other people were doing it. A true pioneer and innovator, and you'll always have my respect and admiration for that. Plus, you know what you are talking about!
 

murphylinda57

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Thanks, Tom. I appreciate the kind words and your vote of confidence.

Believe it or not, 2021 is my 50th year of being a practicing dentist and I started keeping tortoises 13 years before that!
I very much appreciate you taking time to give me advice. Thank you ! It sounds like you are well seasoned with tortoises 🐢 and I am grateful for you sharing your knowledge.
 

murphylinda57

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Be careful with vets. Most of them know very little about tortoises. They treat symptoms without discovering and correcting causes. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and most vets learn about tortoise care from the same wrong sources that everyone else learns about them from.

@zovick has decades of tortoise experience and is also a human dentist. This means he has knowledge and experience with meds, treatment, and physiology that most of us don't, and also many decades of first hand experience treating tortoises. I would strongly suggest taking his advice over the vets. I say this based on my own decades of dealing with chelonians and multiple exotic vets. And I don't say it lightly. Having Zovick posting here is a gift we should all be grateful
That is very scary, but also they charge an arm and a leg and you usually walk away empty handed. I was scared to take him at all, and did alot of research to find one and found MANY reviews of horrible stories. I ended up chosing one with less bad stories. He isn't taking the antibiotic and they told me to just stop giving it to him and consider giving him a shot (they are currently out of stock at the moment) so I have some time to think of what the best option is .
I read somewhere that snot can be a fatal condition, and to not wait.
But he seems okay, he doesn't act sick, he walks around all day, eats, drinks and enjoys his baths . I was just concerned there could be something I cant see, and my general not knowing sparked me to take him.
The day I posted this it was a cloudy day, and its common for him to lose his appetite when it's cooler. Maybe I overreated to think it was the antibiotics that made him look tired. I'm not sure.
He seems great yesterday and today .
 

murphylinda57

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Found this website with lots of info about leopard tortoises. Someone here mentioned some leopard tortoises dont do well with baytril which is mentioned here, along with a very detailed list of things they eat in the wild. A lot to digest but I found it helpful and thought I would share. https://www.carecentre.org.za/leopard.html
 

Tom

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Found this website with lots of info about leopard tortoises. Someone here mentioned some leopard tortoises dont do well with baytril which is mentioned here, along with a very detailed list of things they eat in the wild. A lot to digest but I found it helpful and thought I would share. https://www.carecentre.org.za/leopard.html
The diet info in this sheet is excellent.

The rest of it isn't full of the usual misinformation, but it must be noted that she is talking about having them live outside in their native land for most of this info. Her fear of humidity is understandable under her circumstances, but not so much when done correctly in other parts of the world.
 

mark1

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there is a reason vets continue to use baytril , and it's not incompetence ...... they use it because it's extremely safe , the difference between MIC and LD50 is like 1000x , and it is extremely effective ....... allergic reactions , there are people that die from tasting something cooked in peanut oil , there are people allergic to cephalosporin's , there are animals and people allergic to grass ........ baytril is not the same as ceftazidime ........ i believe the number is 1 out of 5 captive tortoises are mycoplasma positive .......... maybe some of you feel differently , but i'm of the opinion mycoplasma in a symptomatic tortoise should be treated , ceftazidime is not a treatment for a mycoplasma infection .......there are , last i knew , like 4 classes of antibiotics to treat mycoplasma infections , none proven as safe as baytril ..... baytril injections can be painful , i know that's what causes the idea that it's deadly , as far injection site necrosis , i've never seen it , perhaps if i cut open the injection site there will be bruising ..... have any of you seen what this covid injection does at the injection site ? ...

as far as identifying what your treating ? that is just not practical , human doctors do not even do that ....... maybe 6 months ago i was injured cutting down a tree , i ended up with a pretty bad infection , i went to the Cleveland Clinic , not an ugi-care , not some little hospital , i went to one of the top hospitals in the world , they did nothing to identify the bacteria , they put me on an antibiotic effective for what commonly causes the type of infection i had , for 3 weeks 2x a day ... they told me if i didn't see improvement in a few days to come back .....starting out a treatment by attempting to culture an infection is just not a good idea , or a practical idea , and not common practice .......cultures , pcr's elisa , those test are not always correct in identifying causes ...... this has been my experience throughout my life with human doctors and vets of all types , and i've dealt with a lot of each ....... i've spent more and used more vets in my life than any 10 people i know of ...... if my dogs vet thought reptiles were like my dogs , they wouldn't be my dogs vets ...... i've had 4 reptile vets in my life , Wallace Wendt , Norman Tulodziecki , Victoria Wendt , Jamie Lindstrom , ......... maybe i just have better access to smart vets , but i've met a lot of brilliant vets , they tend to be smart people , they all were animal people ............
 

Tom

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there is a reason vets continue to use baytril , and it's not incompetence ...... they use it because it's extremely safe , the difference between MIC and LD50 is like 1000x , and it is extremely effective ....... allergic reactions , there are people that die from tasting something cooked in peanut oil , there are people allergic to cephalosporin's , there are animals and people allergic to grass ........ baytril is not the same as ceftazidime ........ i believe the number is 1 out of 5 captive tortoises are mycoplasma positive .......... maybe some of you feel differently , but i'm of the opinion mycoplasma in a symptomatic tortoise should be treated , ceftazidime is not a treatment for a mycoplasma infection .......there are , last i knew , like 4 classes of antibiotics to treat mycoplasma infections , none proven as safe as baytril ..... baytril injections can be painful , i know that's what causes the idea that it's deadly , as far injection site necrosis , i've never seen it , perhaps if i cut open the injection site there will be bruising ..... have any of you seen what this covid injection does at the injection site ? ...

as far as identifying what your treating ? that is just not practical , human doctors do not even do that ....... maybe 6 months ago i was injured cutting down a tree , i ended up with a pretty bad infection , i went to the Cleveland Clinic , not an ugi-care , not some little hospital , i went to one of the top hospitals in the world , they did nothing to identify the bacteria , they put me on an antibiotic effective for what commonly causes the type of infection i had , for 3 weeks 2x a day ... they told me if i didn't see improvement in a few days to come back .....starting out a treatment by attempting to culture an infection is just not a good idea , or a practical idea , and not common practice .......cultures , pcr's elisa , those test are not always correct in identifying causes ...... this has been my experience throughout my life with human doctors and vets of all types , and i've dealt with a lot of each ....... i've spent more and used more vets in my life than any 10 people i know of ...... if my dogs vet thought reptiles were like my dogs , they wouldn't be my dogs vets ...... i've had 4 reptile vets in my life , Wallace Wendt , Norman Tulodziecki , Victoria Wendt , Jamie Lindstrom , ......... maybe i just have better access to smart vets , but i've met a lot of brilliant vets , they tend to be smart people , they all were animal people ............
How many leopards have you raised Mark? How many leopards have you injected with Baytril?

What say you about the caustic, highly basic nature of injectable Baytil?

What say you about all the instances of the skin sloughing off at the injection site after Baytril?

Why do all my reptile vets, at the forefront of their profession, up on their continuing education, refuse to use injectable Baytril on tortoises now?

You are wrong on this. We all used to do this. I used to do it too. We know better now. This constant fight of you promoting this is ridiculous. Just let it go man. Baytril does harm. There are better ways now.
 

mark1

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How many leopards have you raised Mark? How many leopards have you injected with Baytril?

that answer would be none ,....... how many have you injected with baytril ? how many have you personally seen that had a serious consequence form it ?

What say you about the caustic, highly basic nature of injectable Baytil?

when using baytril i'd say dilute it as much as possible , use a different injection site for each injection ........

What say you about all the instances of the skin sloughing off at the injection site after Baytril?

as i said i've never seen it , you ? i've used baytril undiluted right out the bottle countless times and never had this happen ?

Why do all my reptile vets, at the forefront of their profession, up on their continuing education, refuse to use injectable Baytril on tortoises now?

how do your reptile vets treat suspected mycoplasma infections ? ceftazidime ?

You are wrong on this. We all used to do this. I used to do it too. We know better now. This constant fight of you promoting this is ridiculous. Just let it go man. Baytril does harm. There are better ways now.

a better replacement for baytril is what ? ceftazidime ? you do realize the difference between the two drugs ? you do know the difference between pseudomonas bacteria and mycoplasma bacteria ?

when was the last time you used antibiotics on a tortoise with an URI ? what was it ? baytril been overused no question about it , it's been overused for a reason ...........

https://newcms.eventkaddy.net/event...RNasalDischargeinTortoises_20150512213127.pdf

The most common cause of nasal discharge is upper respiratory tract disease, or mycoplasmosis. Several species of Mycoplasma, Mycoplasma agassizii, Mycoplasma testudineum, and perhaps several yet to be identified Mycoplasma species, are causative.

Four major classes of drugs are used to systemically treat Mycoplasma include fluoroquinolones, macrolides, tetracyclines and chloramphenicol. Aminoglycosides are not indicated. Tetracyclines and chloramphenicol are not commonly used in chelonians, probably because of a lack of pharmacokinetic data.
 

zovick

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How many leopards have you raised Mark? How many leopards have you injected with Baytril?

What say you about the caustic, highly basic nature of injectable Baytil?

What say you about all the instances of the skin sloughing off at the injection site after Baytril?

Why do all my reptile vets, at the forefront of their profession, up on their continuing education, refuse to use injectable Baytril on tortoises now?

You are wrong on this. We all used to do this. I used to do it too. We know better now. This constant fight of you promoting this is ridiculous. Just let it go man. Baytril does harm. There are better ways now.
I agree with Tom on this one. Baytril was the drug of choice for respiratory problems back in the early 1990's, but was replaced by Ceftazidime in the later 90's. Certainly in the 2020's its use should be almost nil unless there is a very good reason for it.

Also, unless I missed it, there is no proof that this tortoise has mycoplasma anyway. I just mentioned that it might be a good idea to test for it.
 

mark1

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I agree with Tom on this one. Baytril was the drug of choice for respiratory problems back in the early 1990's, but was replaced by Ceftazidime in the later 90's. Certainly in the 2020's its use should be almost nil unless there is a very good reason for it.

Also, unless I missed it, there is no proof that this tortoise has mycoplasma anyway. I just mentioned that it might be a good idea to test for it.
i'm sure you know a tortoise can test positive for mycoplasma and it not be the cause of the problem ...... i'm also sure you know false negatives are not that uncommon......... also when testing a tortoises sinuses nares your going to get all kinds of bacteria that has nothing to do with anything ..........
 

Tom

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How many leopards have you raised Mark? How many leopards have you injected with Baytril?

that answer would be none ,....... how many have you injected with baytril ? how many have you personally seen that had a serious consequence form it ?

What say you about the caustic, highly basic nature of injectable Baytil?

when using baytril i'd say dilute it as much as possible , use a different injection site for each injection ........

What say you about all the instances of the skin sloughing off at the injection site after Baytril?

as i said i've never seen it , you ? i've used baytril undiluted right out the bottle countless times and never had this happen ?

Why do all my reptile vets, at the forefront of their profession, up on their continuing education, refuse to use injectable Baytril on tortoises now?

how do your reptile vets treat suspected mycoplasma infections ? ceftazidime ?

You are wrong on this. We all used to do this. I used to do it too. We know better now. This constant fight of you promoting this is ridiculous. Just let it go man. Baytril does harm. There are better ways now.

a better replacement for baytril is what ? ceftazidime ? you do realize the difference between the two drugs ? you do know the difference between pseudomonas bacteria and mycoplasma bacteria ?

when was the last time you used antibiotics on a tortoise with an URI ? what was it ? baytril been overused no question about it , it's been overused for a reason ...........

https://newcms.eventkaddy.net/event...RNasalDischargeinTortoises_20150512213127.pdf

The most common cause of nasal discharge is upper respiratory tract disease, or mycoplasmosis. Several species of Mycoplasma, Mycoplasma agassizii, Mycoplasma testudineum, and perhaps several yet to be identified Mycoplasma species, are causative.

Four major classes of drugs are used to systemically treat Mycoplasma include fluoroquinolones, macrolides, tetracyclines and chloramphenicol. Aminoglycosides are not indicated. Tetracyclines and chloramphenicol are not commonly used in chelonians, probably because of a lack of pharmacokinetic data.
Prior to '98, we used to import leopards. Almost all of them were hit with Baytril. The saying was: "It will either kill them or cure them." It did both. 50-90% of each shipment was expected to die within a year. Enough survived to get breeding groups going. I didn't personally do the injections, but friends that I work with injected 100s, if not 1000s of them. I've seen countless examples of tortoises sloughing skin at Baytril injection sites. Necropsies were seldom performed on these imports, so I cannot say that Baytril was the COD, but many were fine one day and dead the day after injection. Might they have died anyway? The answer has to be yes, but most of them seemed fine and were alive and well prior to injection. None, or far fewer, died that were in the troughs and pens waiting to be injected.
 

mark1

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that would be extremely poor evidence to go on , imo ....... imported reptiles normally die at the rates you describe ..... i've had enough animals to find "fine one day dead the next:" as a fairly normal occurence .........


The Morality of the Reptile "Pet" Trade
At wholesalers, premature
mortality has been found to be approximately 70% during a six-week period, which is

also the reported industry standard (Toland et al., 2012)
 

zovick

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Prior to '98, we used to import leopards. Almost all of them were hit with Baytril. The saying was: "It will either kill them or cure them." It did both. 50-90% of each shipment was expected to die within a year. Enough survived to get breeding groups going. I didn't personally do the injections, but friends that I work with injected 100s, if not 1000s of them. I've seen countless examples of tortoises sloughing skin at Baytril injection sites. Necropsies were seldom performed on these imports, so I cannot say that Baytril was the COD, but many were fine one day and dead the day after injection. Might they have died anyway? The answer has to be yes, but most of them seemed fine and were alive and well prior to injection. None, or far fewer, died that were in the troughs and pens waiting to be injected.
The same thing happened with a group of about 120 Indian Star Tortoises which were confiscated by USFWS and turned over to the Bronx Zoo in 1992 or 1993. Every one was given Baytril within the first few days after getting to the zoo. I was there assisting in the intake process for these animals and can tell you that most, if not all, of the tortoises writhed in pain for 5-10 minutes after being injected with the Baytril.

After witnessing that firsthand, I gave up using Baytril on any of my personal animals unless I felt there was no other possible way they would survive.
 

zovick

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i'm sure you know a tortoise can test positive for mycoplasma and it not be the cause of the problem ...... i'm also sure you know false negatives are not that uncommon......... also when testing a tortoises sinuses nares your going to get all kinds of bacteria that has nothing to do with anything ..........
Yes, agreed that all that is possible, but I still would not use Baytril on one of my animals unless I thought its death was unavoidable otherwise. See my post #37 above.

30 years ago, things were different, but it would take much more sophisticated testing than a simple nasal culture to convince me to inject Baytril into a tortoise these days.
 

mark1

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you will never see me disagree it is a painful injection , that's obvious ........ painful and fatal are not the same ..........
 

zovick

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you will never see me disagree it is a painful injection , that's obvious ........ painful and fatal are not the same ..........
Yes, Mark. I am well aware of the meanings of both of the words..

Tortoises dying after receiving Baytril was Tom's experience, not mine. I did not mention anything about tortoises dying after receiving injections of Baytril in any of my posts.
 
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