TORTOISES ABILITY TO KNOW BEST ABOUT THEIR BODY TEMP

[wellington]

My question. Pretty much spells it out above. The reason though I'm asking is this. It's chilly outside today. Sun in and out, mostly out. My tortoises are old enough I believe, 4 1/2 year leopards to figure it out for themselves if they want to go out or stay in.
Last night big storm and part of their yard floods. One of the leopards chooses to lay in the water. At the moment the sun is not out and it's about 69-70 degrees with cool wind.
Should I let them stay in the water or is it possible they don't know it's too cold?
I'm baffled by them doing this. This is the second time. However, the first time it's wasn't as cold, but wasn't near as hot as I thought it would have to be, before they would want to lay in it.
They can go into their heated shed anytime and bask under lights to heat up.
Temp gun says water is 64 top or tort is 71 that's with the sun being back out only about 2-3 minutes but is still out. The tort looks might comfy too.

@Tom @Yvonne G @tortadise @ALDABRAMAN @Jacqui All experienced opinions welcomed please.

 

[Yvonne G]

Dudley goes out from his warm shed in cold weather then retreats back into the shed when he's finished grazing. Whether he goes in because he "knows" he needs to warm up or because he's finished eating, I don't know.

I DO know for sure that a tortoise sitting under a light that is too hot and is actually burning his carapace, usually doesn't move away from the heat. Maggie's Bob burned the top of his carapace when his light slipped down and was only a couple inches from the carapace. It burned bad enough that the scutes came off, and yet he was sitting there, under the light, when Maggie happened to go into the shed and found him.

I also know for a fact that hatchlings sitting on a heating pad don't realize they can get off it when they get too hot. I learned this the hard way. A larger tortoise seems to know enough to move off a hot pad, but a baby just sits there and cooks.

I wonder if you gave your leopard a deep enough 'bowl' of water inside the shelter if he would go there instead of outside. Some turtles and tortoises feel a need to sit in their water, regardless if its cold or not.

 

[wellington]

Dudley goes out from his warm shed in cold weather then retreats back into the shed when he's finished grazing. Whether he goes in because he "knows" he needs to warm up or because he's finished eating, I don't know.

I DO know for sure that a tortoise sitting under a light that is too hot and is actually burning his carapace, usually doesn't move away from the heat. Maggie's Bob burned the top of his carapace when his light slipped down and was only a couple inches from the carapace. It burned bad enough that the scutes came off, and yet he was sitting there, under the light, when Maggie happened to go into the shed and found him.

I also know for a fact that hatchlings sitting on a heating pad don't realize they can get off it when they get too hot. I learned this the hard way. A larger tortoise seems to know enough to move off a hot pad, but a baby just sits there and cooks.

I wonder if you gave your leopard a deep enough 'bowl' of water inside the shelter if he would go there instead of outside. Some turtles and tortoises feel a need to sit in their water, regardless if its cold or not.

He does that too, sits in his water. He likes to poop in it so he has two. One is deeper then the other, so he does have plenty of choices. I made him move, didn't pic him up and he wasn't too happy about it. Stomped off like he was really mad. I would think they would know, but maybe because it was from the bottom and his top was warmer, he didn't realize how cold the water actually was? He seems fine, was after the other time too. No signs off illness. After some grazing, He did eventually go in the shed which is always warm, besides just the basking lights. I'm tempted to run a warm water hose out there for these situations. At least I can warm the water up some and not worry so much.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I believe they're not very aware of temps sometimes.
It seems that the tortoises here will seek shelter in the heat of the day because they are programmed to do so, but if you actually put one in a hot spot or under a lamp it will not necessarily move and slowly burn.
Likewise, when they get cold their body functions slow down and maybe their brains (what there is of them) seize up, like ours do in the cold and they will just lie in a cold place and freeze to death.
If I turn off Tidgy's MVB bulb she will still walk and sit under it, seemingly oblivious to the fact that it may be colder and less lit than elsewhere she could walk to.

 

[wellington]

I believe they're not very aware of temps sometimes.
It seems that the tortoises here will seek shelter in the heat of the day because they are programmed to do so, but if you actually put one in a hot spot or under a lamp it will not necessarily move and slowly burn.
Likewise, when they get cold their body functions slow down and maybe their brains (what there is of them) seize up, like ours do in the cold and they will just lie in a cold place and freeze to death.
If I turn off Tidgy's MVB bulb she will still walk and sit under it, seemingly oblivious to the fact that it may be colder and less lit than elsewhere she could walk to.

The thought of them slowing down when they get cold did cross my mind. Wondering too if their brain or internal temp gauge did too. He didn't act like it though. Head up and out and just looking around. Like he was very comfy. But, maybe still, slowed enough to not know?

 

[dmmj]

I'm pretty sure they know when they get too hot hot hot. I'm unsure though if you were to place a tortoise into hotspot it would try to seek shelter. logically you would assume they would. perhaps it's more analogous to a frog and boiling water? since I don't conduct cruell experiments on my tortoises I cannot answer that question sorry for wasting your time

 

[wellington]

I'm pretty sure they know when they get too hot hot hot. I'm unsure though if you were to place a tortoise into hotspot it would try to seek shelter. logically you would assume they would. Practice more analogous to a frog and boiling water? since I don't conduct cruell experiments on my tortoises I cannot answer that question sorry for wasting your time

Never a waist. Everyones thoughts always welcomed.

 

[domalle]

My question. Pretty much spells it out above. The reason though I'm asking is this. It's chilly outside today. Sun in and out, mostly out. My tortoises are old enough I believe, 4 1/2 year leopards to figure it out for themselves if they want to go out or stay in.
Last night big storm and part of their yard floods. One of the leopards chooses to lay in the water. At the moment the sun is not out and it's about 69-70 degrees with cool wind.
Should I let them stay in the water or is it possible they don't know it's too cold?
I'm baffled by them doing this. This is the second time. However, the first time it's wasn't as cold, but wasn't near as hot as I thought it would have to be, before they would want to lay in it.
They can go into their heated shed anytime and bask under lights to heat up.
Temp gun says water is 64 top or tort is 71 that's with the sun being back out only about 2-3 minutes but is still out. The tort looks might comfy too.

@Tom @Yvonne G @tortadise @ALDABRAMAN @Jacqui All experienced opinions welcomed please.

Even though turtles are poikilothermic (cold-blooded), they are able to maintain relatively stable core body temperature
despite fluctuations in ambient environmental temperature, even precipitous and severe ones, at least for short periods.
That core body temperature is not affected by the sun passing behind a cloud.
Mammalian body temperature is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. We assume that if we feel chilly, it is too cold for the turtles.
Subject a turtle to our core temperature and they would not last long.

 

[dmmj]

Even though turtles are poikilothermic (cold-blooded), they are able to maintain relatively stable core body temperature
despite fluctuations in ambient environmental temperature, even precipitous and severe ones, at least for short periods.
That core body temperature is not affected by the sun passing behind a cloud.
Mammalian body temperature is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. We assume that if we feel chilly, it is too cold for the turtles.
Subject a turtle to our core temperature and they would not last long.

too many big words made brain hurts

 

[ascott]

I believe they're not very aware of temps sometimes.
It seems that the tortoises here will seek shelter in the heat of the day because they are programmed to do so, but if you actually put one in a hot spot or under a lamp it will not necessarily move and slowly burn.
Likewise, when they get cold their body functions slow down and maybe their brains (what there is of them) seize up, like ours do in the cold and they will just lie in a cold place and freeze to death.
If I turn off Tidgy's MVB bulb she will still walk and sit under it, seemingly oblivious to the fact that it may be colder and less lit than elsewhere she could walk to.

I believe sometimes their slow and steady ways allows them to sit patiently and wait...for the sun to come out, because it always eventually shows, because that spot in the enclosure always gets warm, eventually...patient, tenacious and somewhat faith " it is going to be" , because it always has...

 

[Jodie]

I have 1 leopard who will not go into his box when it gets cold, and one Russian that will stay out. Both had been kept inside most of their lives. I agree with ascott. They believe it will warm up. I move them into the box to warm up, and allow them to go back out when they want, then repeat. I am hopeful they will learn.

 

[Tom]

I've discussed this many times with other tortoise keepers.

When a tortoise evolves over millions of years, it does so in its native environment. When we move them to an entirely different environment in another part of the world, they sometimes don't have the mechanisms to deal with the new challenges. Variations among species complicate things even further. Let me explain: Sulcatas and desert tortoises dig out a burrow and they return to this "home base" automatically. They sleep in their safe hole every night. They go there to escape the heat each day. Leopard tortoises, by contrast, don't burrow and from what I have read live a more transient lifestyle. They wander around in their environment and they park wherever and whenever they want. In their native land, they can handle whatever the weather throws at them. So while Dudley and all of my sulcatas return to home base every night, which is very convenient since we have all their heating equipment set up in this home base, my leopards frequently don't return to their warm boxes. The leopards often park outside under a bush or in a corner somewhere. On a cold winter night, this could kill them if I didn't come along and put them in their heated night boxes. Tortoises seem to have a mechanism in their brain that says, "Hey! I'm too hot, I've gotta find some shade or water or somewhere cooler, or I'm gonna die." Tortoises do not seem to have a brain mechanism that says, "Hey. Its going to get too cold out here tonight, so I better move over into the electrically heated shelter area before it gets too cold and dark." It does not get too cold for a leopard tortoise in the parts of Africa where they come from. Parking under a bush above ground over night will not harm them because it won't get too cold. Here in North America its a different story.

So to answer your original question, No. Your leopards are not mentally equipped to deal with the weather in a Chicago backyard all on their own. They need your help and intuition and this has nothing to do with their age. If you allow them to choose to stay outside or retreat at will into a heated box of some sort, often they will often make the wrong choice and choose to sit out in the cold.

Yes tortoises survived for millions of years without our help, BUT, they survived in the land where they evolved and hatched, not in our backyards on another continent. Many of them also died in their native lands because they made the wrong choice when mother nature threw a curve ball at them. Matching the survival rate of wild tortoises in my enclosures is not my goal.

 

[ascott]

He does that too, sits in his water. He likes to poop in it so he has two. One is deeper then the other, so he does have plenty of choices. I made him move, didn't pic him up and he wasn't too happy about it. Stomped off like he was really mad. I would think they would know, but maybe because it was from the bottom and his top was warmer, he didn't realize how cold the water actually was? He seems fine, was after the other time too. No signs off illness. After some grazing, He did eventually go in the shed which is always warm, besides just the basking lights. I'm tempted to run a warm water hose out there for these situations. At least I can warm the water up some and not worry so much.

The beauty and the frustratiin too in subjects like this is...we will never actually know.everyone is only able to offer their own perspective ...but we all have our own opinions..and that is the fun part of the share...

 

[wellington]

The beauty and the frustratiin too in subjects like this is...we will never actually know.everyone is only able to offer their own perspective ...but we all have our own opinions..and that is the fun part of the share...

So true. Fun yet, frustration when your like me and likes answers that are definite. I'm not a big one for grey areas.LOL. Tortoises are filled with grey areas. I didn't think that one out before I fell for them

 

[dmmj]

So true. Fun yet, frustration when your like me and likes answers that are definite. I'm not a big one for grey areas.LOL. Tortoises are filled with grey areas. I didn't think that one out before I fell for them

the heart wants what the heart wants

 

[wellington]

Thanks everyone. I will do next time as I did this time. Let him sit for a bit then make him move on to warmer things. If it's cold out that is. Btw, no signs that it bothered him. No running nose or anything. So that's good. I will let have his way until I think mine is better LOL.
Any and all others thoughts are still welcomed.

 

[turtletopia81]

I've discussed this many times with other tortoise keepers.

When a tortoise evolves over millions of years, it does so in its native environment. When we move them to an entirely different environment in another part of the world, they sometimes don't have the mechanisms to deal with the new challenges. Variations among species complicate things even further. Let me explain: Sulcatas and desert tortoises dig out a burrow and they return to this "home base" automatically. They sleep in their safe hole every night. They go there to escape the heat each day. Leopard tortoises, by contrast, don't burrow and from what I have read live a more transient lifestyle. They wander around in their environment and they park wherever and whenever they want. In their native land, they can handle whatever the weather throws at them. So while Dudley and all of my sulcatas return to home base every night, which is very convenient since we have all their heating equipment set up in this home base, my leopards frequently don't return to their warm boxes. The leopards often park outside under a bush or in a corner somewhere. On a cold winter night, this could kill them if I didn't come along and put them in their heated night boxes. Tortoises seem to have a mechanism in their brain that says, "Hey! I'm too hot, I've gotta find some shade or water or somewhere cooler, or I'm gonna die." Tortoises do not seem to have a brain mechanism that says, "Hey. Its going to get too cold out here tonight, so I better move over into the electrically heated shelter area before it gets too cold and dark." It does not get too cold for a leopard tortoise in the parts of Africa where they come from. Parking under a bush above ground over night will not harm them because it won't get too cold. Here in North America its a different story.

So to answer your original question, No. Your leopards are not mentally equipped to deal with the weather in a Chicago backyard all on their own. They need your help and intuition and this has nothing to do with their age. If you allow them to choose to stay outside or retreat at will into a heated box of some sort, often they will often make the wrong choice and choose to sit out in the cold.

Yes tortoises survived for millions of years without our help, BUT, they survived in the land where they evolved and hatched, not in our backyards on another continent. Many of them also died in their native lands because they made the wrong choice when mother nature threw a curve ball at them. Matching the survival rate of wild tortoises in my enclosures is not my goal.

Great content. Thanks tom

 

[Tom]

The beauty and the frustratiin too in subjects like this is...we will never actually know.everyone is only able to offer their own perspective ...but we all have our own opinions..and that is the fun part of the share...

You keep saying stuff like this, and I have to keep disagreeing.

Its not someone's opinion that if you don't put the leopard tortoise back in its warm box that it will die on a cold winter night. That's a fact. Wo do know the answers to some of this. We can offer options about which specific mechanism may or may not be at work here, but there is no doubt that sometimes tortoises, if given the opportunity, will make decisions that will end their lives.

 

[wellington]

You keep saying stuff like this, and I have to keep disagreeing.

Its not someone's opinion that if you don't put the leopard tortoise back in its warm box that it will die on a cold winter night. That's a fact. Wo do know the answers to some of this. We can offer options about which specific mechanism may or may not be at work here, but there is no doubt that sometimes tortoises, if given the opportunity, will make decisions that will end their lives.

I think she was referring to never really knowing if they can tell from laying in the cold if they know they are cold, not going to warm up or if that darn sun is ever really coming to warm them up. Compared to how they or most can feel the heat from above. I don't think there is any doubt that some situations will just need our common sense. That's why I didn't let him lay as long as he may have.

 

[ascott]

I think she was referring to never really knowing if they can tell from laying in the cold if they know they are cold, not going to warm up or if that darn sun is ever really coming to warm them up. Compared to how they or most can feel the heat from above. I don't think there is any doubt that some situations will just need our common sense. That's why I didn't let him lay as long as he may have.

Thank you. The first nine words you typed was exactly my meaning spot on. Which is why I believe there is fun as well as frustration in some behaviors tort live out that we as humans always have a strong desire to figure out...and those figuring out moments are then share with others by the start of..I believe, I think, my opinion, my perspective, what I have learned, etc. Simply because we do not know for certain. Thank you again.