Tortoises Confiscated from Hoarder In Phoenix

[ascott]

Wow....if folks had their animals fixed upon taking them into their homes as "pets" there would not be as many unwanted pets running around. How many times has it been even shared here about the ferrel cats and unwanted critters on peoples property---folks shooting them, poisoning them, feeding them to their snakes, etc.

I believe that the humane society as a whole is a horrible place, a horrible system....but are you personally going to run the streets and pick up all animals that are running unwanted? I do not think so. I refused years ago to work at humane societies due to the task of "handling" the unwanted and uncared for animals....I always thought it had to have been full of cold hearted people in order for the task to be carried out....I still do. However, who is it that is called when there is a vicious dog on a property and the property owner does not want to handle the situation? Who is it that folks call when they stumble across a true animal abuse situation? It surely is not handled by the mainstream public....come on now, we are all aware of the horror that occurs, hell, the treatment for the live food we eat is no better...the food we artificially farm, the animals we farm for clothing, if you have a mountain lion pop up in your yard--who do you call to handle it, either animal control or fish n game, what do you honestly believe happens to those poor wild animals---who?....lets face it, we can be a pretty crappy species when we set our minds to it....I have said it before and will likely say it again, just because we "can" does not mean we "should"....and our thumbs are usually firmly planted in a crappy place vs being the wonderful items we rate our superiority on....

To look at the shell/top view of these tortoise in the story is no way taking a look at the tortoise itself, its weight, its overall condition...perhaps they were in the yard left to themselves---does this mean that they are being cared for well? yes maybe no maybe--who are we to know the facts...what I do know is that in my opinion if the other animals conditions are indicative of the type of care that this couple offered then it is likely better that the tortoise are removed as well...problem is that when this couple is out of the limelight, they will begin collecting again....such a shame...

I do not think that you all need to be as worried as you are about your personal reptile collections...seriously.?

IMHO that is.

 

[EricIvins]

Wow....if folks had their animals fixed upon taking them into their homes as "pets" there would not be as many unwanted pets running around. How many times has it been even shared here about the ferrel cats and unwanted critters on peoples property---folks shooting them, poisoning them, feeding them to their snakes, etc.

I believe that the humane society as a whole is a horrible place, a horrible system....but are you personally going to run the streets and pick up all animals that are running unwanted? I do not think so. I refused years ago to work at humane societies due to the task of "handling" the unwanted and uncared for animals....I always thought it had to have been full of cold hearted people in order for the task to be carried out....I still do. However, who is it that is called when there is a vicious dog on a property and the property owner does not want to handle the situation? Who is it that folks call when they stumble across a true animal abuse situation? It surely is not handled by the mainstream public....come on now, we are all aware of the horror that occurs, hell, the treatment for the live food we eat is no better...the food we artificially farm, the animals we farm for clothing, if you have a mountain lion pop up in your yard--who do you call to handle it, either animal control or fish n game, what do you honestly believe happens to those poor wild animals---who?....lets face it, we can be a pretty crappy species when we set our minds to it....I have said it before and will likely say it again, just because we "can" does not mean we "should"....and our thumbs are usually firmly planted in a crappy place vs being the wonderful items we rate our superiority on....

To look at the shell/top view of these tortoise in the story is no way taking a look at the tortoise itself, its weight, its overall condition...perhaps they were in the yard left to themselves---does this mean that they are being cared for well? yes maybe no maybe--who are we to know the facts...what I do know is that in my opinion if the other animals conditions are indicative of the type of care that this couple offered then it is likely better that the tortoise are removed as well...problem is that when this couple is out of the limelight, they will begin collecting again....such a shame...

I do not think that you all need to be as worried as you are about your personal reptile collections...seriously.?

IMHO that is.

Yes - SERIOUSLY

As someone who invests what would be considered the hours of a full time job, stupid money, and the blood, sweat, and tears that come with it - My collection is taken very seriously.........

I'm not someone with a few "Pets" to parade about, and all it takes is one idiot to call the right person and all my animals can be GONE in hours........Don't think it can happen? IT ALREADY HAS!!!!!!!! This is nothing new, as its happened many times before.........

Once that happens, a Legal battle will insue.....If you have the resources to even get that far........AND if you do win, what animals that aren't dead are pretty much on their way out, because they were handed over to Organizations who thought they knew how to care for them........Would you want that to happen to your animals?

 

[DesertGrandma]

My personal opinion about what hoarding is comes down to how many animals can one physically and financially care for. If there is feces all over the place you have too many animals to care for. If your animals are sick and not treated then you have too many animals to care for. If they are not routinely fed a nutritious diet then there are too many animals to care for. If you are a breeder all these things still apply, but you must also ensure that the laws of your area allow you to have and breed a large number of animals. If all these things are met then I don't see why any law enforcement agency would step in, unless you have noisy animals that are disturbing the peace (don't think tortoises fit into this categorie). Hoarding is usually a mental disorder and the hoarder doesn't realize that they are not properly caring for their animals. They think they are loving them.

---

http://www.kpho.com/story/16400902/scottsdale-woma


If you click on the tortoise picture it says, "Photo courtesy Arizona Humane Society."

I am not sure, but I think the ones I saw on TV were adults and these appear to be youngsters. I couldn't really tell what shape they were in.

 

[ascott]

all it takes is one idiot to call the right person and all my animals can be GONE in hours......Don't think it can happen? IT ALREADY HAS!!!!!!!! This is nothing new, as its happened many times before.........

Would you want that to happen to your animals?

I love this ending line as the defend all. Therefore I will answer for fun, of course not.

However, anytime an animal control officer or fish n game rep wanted to come onto my property to do an animal welfare check, they are welcome.

I have had to have two of my dogs quarantined in my day, so dealing with the animal control is of course no fun, but I was never treated as an animal abuser, nor bad guy---but rather followed their explanation of the law and all went as it should. I use to rent a house years back and my dog had run of 2 acres that was fenced 6 foot high...well, the landlord decided to let herself into the yard while a service man was there doing work and my dog jumped up and either his nail or tooth scraped her arm (she was an elderly person who's skin was, thin and bled easily, this was her statement) she demanded he be put down because he was vicious...I paid all of her medical bills (600.00+) then contacted animal control to report the incident---their officer came out, met my dog, explained that he had to be quarantined but that I can do this on my own property---had to post do not enter/quarantine site signs during that time and put a lock on the gate to assure that I had done adequate measures to protect the public during the quarantine...

The other dog, is my crazy dog I have now....since she has to be out on a 100 foot dog run cable while she is out (because she is a fence jumper and then jumps into other folks yards to visit) when I first set up the cable I did not realize that she was as strong as she was and when she ran and hit the end of the line it made the post loose and allowed her to get partially over the fence, well I was inside getting ready for work and heard her fussing, so I had to grab her entire body and toss her back over the fence so she could get comfort as the line clip had tangled on her back leg and clipped itself on her skin...so alone I was not able to hold her mouth (which was the most important as I found out she is a biter when in pain) and loosen tension on her skin and hold her ---only two hands---well, when I grabbed her to throw her back over the fence she got close to my neck and arm and lashed out and got me a little--nothing I was worried about---and my son was young and I was not going to have him chance getting bit...so had him throw me by cell and I called animal control to get them to help me, the guy shows up and I talk him through the house and he appears in the back yard and sees me bloody, bent over my dog, holding her mouth with the cable as a muzzle and holding her so she does not fight and cause more stress on the tangled line...I assured him the dog was not dangerous--and I assured him that I was in no way going to let the dog bite him and that the blood on me was superficial and to not blame the dog...he simply said okay and he proceeded to unclip the cable line from her back leg skin and this sudden relief rushed over her and she looked at that officer and brushed all against him, licked him and he laughed and they had a moment....as he was leaving he said that he was glad he could help and he apologized but explained to me that since the dog inflicted injury to me that caused blood he is required to quarantine the dog, I again assured him that she will not come into contact with anyone outside of the household members....he said great and gave me the quarantine signs and did the whole thing again.....

Now, if you are someone who cares for, breeds and sells animals of any king..your facility should be set up ****...so that if any animal control officer or fish n game officer should request to inspect your property...you should be set up in such a way to have problem whatsoever....if someone reports you for something the animal control officer does not just come in and rip your animals from you (unless they are in immediate danger, then they should be removed) if there is anything that they see needs to be corrected they give you notice and time to make those corrections, if you do not---then that is when you have a problem....

Animal hoarders do indeed have mental issues with what they think they are doing and what they actually are doing in regards to the health and welfare of animals.....while their heart and intention comes from an okay place...it is no replacement for actual affects and care.

If an animal is living in crap and urine saturated home...they should not be there....IMHO that is.

 

[Angi]

One of my many fears is becoming a hoarder. Two people want to give me Lepard Geckos right now. I said I would take them. How do you know when you have crosses the line? Sorry for being slightly OT. I think I will start a new tread.

 

[Jacqui]

I believe that the humane society as a whole is a horrible place, a horrible system....but are you personally going to run the streets and pick up all animals that are running unwanted? I do not think so.

I do not think that you all need to be as worried as you are about your personal reptile collections...seriously.?

IMHO that is.

Actually, yes I do take in all the stray animals in our village. I spend a large part of my income feeding those animals and paying their vet bills. So on that point you are wrong, there are many of us out here doing the same thing.

Seriously, it is up to your local law enforcement as to what they deem "too many" animals or even poor care. One reason, I always advise folks to never keep reptiles without a water dish in the enclosure, even if the animal never uses it. Also the law enforcement folks do not have to give you any leeway and work with you. They can come in and make up their minds it's not a good situation for an animal, remove it and then your the one who has to fight to get them back. I have personally witness this happening to folks and have talked to my own local County Attorney and asked what can be done or can't be done legally. So these comments are not guesses or stories I have heard, they are based on actual cases and facts.

So yeah, folks should worry about what can happen, always better safe then sorry. Our legal system is far from perfect and is always open to interpretation, never forget that.

 

[ascott]

So yeah, folks should worry about what can happen, always better safe then sorry. Our legal system is far from perfect and is always open to interpretation, never forget that.

I agree our legal system as well as a crap load of other systems are far from perfect.....as is everything else in life; religion, politics, love and war...all are open for interpretation Jacqui.

I do know that bad things happen to good people...I am not oblivious to the possibilites of life, don't mistake my comment for that.

I however do not support the fact that all animal control officers are heartless bastards and are having meetings to decide how many animals they can confiscate and kill....far from it.

I believe that people give them too much crap and do not want to mess up their hands and have blood on them...so they do what they do, they get too many, care too little and then whoop and hollar when a stray causes them any discomfort (usually the discomfort would involve sympathy, love and compassion...you know, the things that make people cringe these days) they then want "someone" to handle the stray or wild animal ...so an enforcement officer is forced to do what they are forced to do...to handle the situation, to get blood on their hands...to make the problem go away....so they can then later bad mouth the animal control about how crude and heartless and out to get every animal owner....simply NOT the case.

This too, I know first hand.

 

[Jacqui]

I however do not support the fact that all animal control officers are heartless bastards and are having meetings to decide how many animals they can confiscate and kill....far from it.

I believe that people give them too much crap and do not want to mess up their hands and have blood on them...so they do what they do, they get too many, care too little and then whoop and hollar when a stray causes them any discomfort (usually the discomfort would involve sympathy, love and compassion...you know, the things that make people cringe these days) they then want "someone" to handle the stray or wild animal ...so an enforcement officer is forced to do what they are forced to do...to handle the situation, to get blood on their hands...to make the problem go away....so they can then later bad mouth the animal control about how crude and heartless and out to get every animal owner....simply NOT the case.

This too, I know first hand.

I do not recall anybody saying they were all bad folks. I also didn't say they were out to get every animal owner. I said, folks need to take precautions and be prepared for the worse case scenario. Same as when you travel with an animal, think of the worse things that can happen and prepare for them. Hiding your head in the sand and hoping only good things will happen, is not the wisest way to live.

I've been the person who got to play "god", the person being paid to "care" for those abused animals. I saw abuse at the Humane Society that would shock folks to read about. I have read newspaper and watch TV reports of cases I had been witness too and wondered where these folks get all their misinformation. I watch somebody clip a dog to try to make it appear even skinnier then it was. These things have sadly, also caused me to not believe what I read or see, but rather question it's validity.

I made a commitment years later (once I had my own place) to start repaying a debt that can never be repaid. To do for other animals, what I could not do for those creatures. Plus to pay back those animals I was blessed with having in my own life, who at times were (and are) the reason I get out of bed each day. Some folks might consider it my "punishment" for past mistakes. Maybe it's how I wash the blood stain off my hands, as you phrased it. Maybe it's the one way I can make a difference. I don't care what others call it, I don't care if they think I am crazy, I just know why I do it.

No not every animal control person is bad, just as not all "hoarders are bad. Life gives you some of both, just to keep things interesting. Life is not black and white, it is made up of many shades and colors in between. Just as you and I are very different and have such opposite opinions and experiences on many things. Doesn't make either of us wrong.

 

[ascott]

No not every animal control person is bad, just as not all "hoarders are bad. Life gives you some of both, just to keep things interesting. Life is not black and white, it is made up of many shades and colors in between. Just as you and I are very different and have such opposite opinions and experiences on many things. Doesn't make either of us wrong

.

I completely agree with what you have here Jacqui....absolutely right..

 

[Tom]

I almost skipped this thread. I thought I would be the only one who was disturbed by the authorities just walking in and confiscating someone's animals and I didn't want to start another big "thing". I'm glad I was wrong. Pleasantly surprised actually.

I'm definitely against any sort of animal cruelty or neglect, but as the photo clearly shows, do the bozos making this HUGE judgement call have any idea how to care for a leopard tortoise? Some of us have had a few "run-ins" with the "authorities", and let me tell you first hand and without exaggeration, some of the stories that we have heard throughout history of governmental wrong-doing is right in line with what happens here right now. Eric is not over-reacting or exaggerating.

Here's my fear: It was a busy day today. I moved a couple of tons of blocks, built some new enclosure covers, and I'm getting ready to seed tomorrow. As a result, I did not get around to cleaning out Bert's night box. I would bet money that there is a load of big sulcata turds in there right now, and he is probably sleeping on it or right next to it. I changed my baby waters at around 4pm, but I can almost guarantee that they tracked substrate into the bowls between that time and lights out. All total I've got around 50 animals in my care at any given time. What's stopping Jonny Law from inspecting my place right now, seeing some poop in a night box, and confiscating all of my animals, arresting me and painting me as a "hoarder" whose animals live in their own filth, while arresting and charging me with a crime or crimes? What's stopping him? NOTHING! Not a damn thing. I could be labeled a felon because my adult tortoise took a crap in his night box over night. This is wrong. This should not be possible. As it stands right now, we are simply at their mercy. If you don't see this, you are living in a fantasy and I feel bad for you. One day reality will slap you down. Hard.

 

[ascott]

Covered in feces and urine....until you have walked into a house that has these conditions....I am talking about animals literally walking on layers of crap and breathing in that ammonia smell along with the stench of sick decaying live animals you will never understand what it is that we are talking about....animals sometimes so sick so that their body odor is that of rotting flesh....now, if a person of authority comes into this situation they are inhuman to do nothing....to do counseling? for what? You have stories of animal cruelty all of the time...Mike Vick is a perfect example...so if we do not have animal control officers working alongside the law enforcement then God help those poor creatures.....I speak here not to try to convince anyone that ALL agencies are manned with saints...but only to express that they do have their place in what we label society....

Tom, there is a HUGE difference between a night of tortoise crap in a pen vs a year of crap...and that is what I am referring to when I say I would lend my support in this particular story shared that yes, the animal control agencies had every right as well as duty to do exactly what they did...again my point brought back around...someone has to do it and society as a whole just does not value animals as anything more than personal property that they do with as they like...and in bad cases the animals suffers greatly....

 

[Neal]

I can see how this story would make some nervous. People who don't understand anything about tortoises are usually shocked by my response when they ask how many tortoises we have. All it would take is one nut to assume that I'm "hoarding" animals and get some type of authority involved.
At the same time, the animals were clearly in terrible conditions in this particular story. Can anyone cite a specific instance where tortoises were confiscated from someone who was actually taking really good care of them?

17

 

[Tom]

Angela, first of all, I like and respect you greatly, so please don't feel like this is me against you. Its just conversation in a calm, mild tone.

I completely see your point about the necessity and the potential good of some sort of "Animal Welfare" agency. And you are right that there are really good people who do that job. One of my mentors is an ACO, and he is one of the kindest most generous human beings on the planet. I hear horror stories from him all the time. Horror stories where it was necessary to intervene in a big way. Another of my good friends is an ACO and I can't see him doing the "wrong" thing either. But my point is that NOT all of them are saints, and some of them are downright evil. I know of one who plea bargained his way out of a worse conviction for hanging dogs in the pound. The reason he gave was to save on the euthanasia drugs. He did some jail time, but not enough. The main problem as I see it it that there is no viable system of checks and balances. These people have the unlimited power to do what ever they want, whenever they want, and spin it however they want. We all just sit back and hope one of the "bad" ones doesn't pick us that day. And some of them aren't even bad they are just ignorant. I work with these people regularly and call some of them friends. A couple of my ACO friends recently told me that the recent "crackdown" on film sets was due to the animal rightist agenda of the person who had been appointed to run their division. They didn't like these new rules. They didn't want to or see any need to be harassing legitimate business people doing their jobs, but their boss was forcing them too. Their boss could make any rules he wanted and no one could do a damn thing about it. There is a big problem when the people who are charged with stopping animal abuse, abuse their power.

I really don't know what went down in this particular case. I will grant that it might have been justified, but we are basing our opinions off of information given to us by the "authorities" involved. Do you not see how in my particular case the authorities could pop the top of my night box, snap a photo, and then snap a photo of my substrate laden water dishes that were just sparkling clean an hour ago, and call me a hoarder and an abuser? They would post those photos and create a story of neglect or abuse, and some people would believe it. Why wouldn't they believe it? You might not, because you know me, but what percentage of society at large would look at those pics, read what they said, and believe I was a bad dude? Scary stuff, I tell you...

 

[ascott]

Tom, I too like and respect you very much I would not take anything you have to share/tell/say to me as an attack (so if you want to do that please let me know first...lol).

I completely see what you are saying. I also agree with you that there are pieces of crap (trying to use G rated words as I noticed I used a couple not so nice words the other day, apologies) that are handed huge power and control that should never be given those duties...TOTALLY.

I have worked directly for one such person (ugghhh) I essentially believe my speaking out and showing her cards was the reason I was first to be laid off...but so be it, I can live with myself at the end of the day and offer my son morals with which to develop his own beliefs on, you know?

You are right in the fact that anyone can drop a dime and fabricate a wild story, absolutely right. You are also right that a visit from the wrong idiot can create nothing but heartache....this I do not disagree on.

I think that my rebute was sparked by each and every time I see an article about some group of animals that are genuinely saved from horrible conditions...the first thing that gets commented is that the animal control officers/law enforcement are jerks and have no business taking peoples property/animals ....the very first thing! Always jumping on the hater path...rarely ever on the side of the animal...no sympathy shared for the situation....that was my compelling factor for sharing and stating what I did.

We are good Tom

 

[yagyujubei]

Lets see, Humane society gets a complaint. Humane society investigates. Humane society vet examines animals. Humane society decides if animals are adoptable. Humane society euthanizes animals. Elderly former pet owner dies alone. You just can't argue with a system that works.

 

[ForestExotics]

What disturbs me is how well are the animal control officials now caring for those tortoises and snakes? For a place concerned with animal welfare, they often have no idea how to care for reptiles and are actually the cruelest keepers. Sorry I just have seen too many times, when these kinds of places have labeled others as abusive, when their own standards leave much to be desired. Major problem is they fail to provide necessary heat. and then on down to other needs not being met. This is not to say, this woman did not need some help. Does not sound like they were kind enough to try working with this woman.

This is so true I have seen a case like that also.

---

Lets see, Humane society gets a complaint. Humane society investigates. Humane society vet examines animals. Humane society decides if animals are adoptable. Humane society euthanizes animals. Elderly former pet owner dies alone. You just can't argue with a system that works.

Weird right?

 

[DesertGrandma]

To put a little more light on this particular case...as I understand it the law enforcement authorities were called to this home on a "domestic" issue and they saw the deplorable conditions of the animals and called for help with removal of some of the animals. I did see interviews with neighbors that said they had no idea it was so bad in the house.

 

[Tom]

To put a little more light on this particular case...as I understand it the law enforcement authorities were called to this home on a "domestic" issue and they saw the deplorable conditions of the animals and called for help with removal of some of the animals. I did see interviews with neighbors that said they had no idea it was so bad in the house.

Again, this could very well been a justifiable case that really did need intervention... or it might be some a$$*@#e cops trying to make someone look bad and punish them because they said something the cops didn't like. If you've ever had the cops "impose" themselves into your life, it is usually not a pleasant experience. Sometimes the imposed upon people put their displeasure with the situation into audible words. I have seen cops go WAY overboard to "teach these people a lesson" in manners and respect. I have had cops totally unjustifiably steal my personal property and refuse to give it back, unless I spoke "nicely" to them.

I'm just saying that when these situations come up, one should keep an open mind. If it WAS a case of neglect and deplorable conditions, then hey, great, the authorities did their job and all is well now. But if it really wasn't justified, then what? Its a scenario that most people don't want to even consider, much less deal with.

 

[ascott]

have had cops totally unjustifiably steal my personal property and refuse to give it back, unless I spoke "nicely" to them.

Tom, I can totally appreciate your angst here, completely. I use to live in LA--downtown, there is nothing more awesome and equally saddening as either a great cop or the cop that is lower than the sludge that is in the pit of a septic tank.....

We fail sometimes to remember, that in the big picture of life---" the good will always outnumber the few....the good, the calm, the patient, the fair--- for when the moment to group together arrises, they can not be quieted" -anonymous. I apologize for OT.

 

[grogansilver]

I got to get in on this one! i looked at that video and what a saw was a small house and was told there were 4 snakes 6 tortoises which in a way they are big tortoises but what caught my attention was the "29" dogs do you know what 29 dogs would be like in a small house like that! but what I'm trying to say is i don't disagree with Animal Human Society's because they do help animals! and believe me they will know when conditions are really out of control and animals are not being taken care of! now i look at the whole picture here and see that the tortoise lovers especially on here are only targeting and discussing about the 6 tortoises themselves but what about the 29 dogs and snakes and what ever other animals they have that they mentioned! over all you can have as many animals as you want its not illegal in any way! but as i see it when the people who own the animals loose control of their own lives and themselves and cant take care of them selves we know the animals that are there are loosing the battle also because they depend on us to take care of them! we all down the line will come to depend on others when we all get old ourselves. we also must understand not all the time will people who own their own animals will want to part from them! because those animals are their lives and family and as we all know it! Animals in general will never abandon us, as sometimes we know our own families will! "Don't hate people who work for other organizations that want to help animals, actually you should all work together to help those animals! there are tortoises there who ever is in charge of the tortoise organization foundation should step in just to help and over look the tortoises that are their! i see there are a lot of caring people on here with such high status make the call! get them the Human Society's organization the equipment they need to help take care of those tortoises which are there or just have someone be there from the tortoises foundation.org to over see that the tortoises that are there that they are taken care of well properly to the conditions that they do need!