Tortoises from the Seychelles

[TortyDxb]

Nice, thanks


Hihi, I don't have the knowledge to answer your question at this point. It could be related to metabolism. I simply know that males seem to grow (in length & weight) at a faster rate than females. Not sure if this is the case with Tiny and Titch or if it starts this early. Time will tell


True. What we have noticed is that in a particular clutch, the one who comes out first has the advantage with regards to growth, even if the difference in coming out of the egg is 1 or 2 days.
We can also see that even a 1 gram difference can increase to 10g and will continue to increase over time. The reason we do not know for sure.

that is really interesting, thank you!

 

[Tobagomon]

Nice, thanks


Hihi, I don't have the knowledge to answer your question at this point. It could be related to metabolism. I simply know that males seem to grow (in length & weight) at a faster rate than females. Not sure if this is the case with Tiny and Titch or if it starts this early. Time will tell


True. What we have noticed is that in a particular clutch, the one who comes out first has the advantage with regards to growth, even if the difference in coming out of the egg is 1 or 2 days.
We can also see that even a 1 gram difference can increase to 10g and will continue to increase over time. The reason we do not know for sure.

Hi Sesel
Thanks for your feedback on this fascinating subject. You mention that males grow at a faster rate than females-interesting. Could it be that sexual differentiation in Aldabras can be determined out of monitoring growth rates and this divergence? Yes, I acknowledge that there are other factors but this is food for thought. I wonder if any other Aldabra keepers are monitoring growth rates out there?.

 

[Tobagomon]

This discussion of divergent growth rates even amongst torts from same clutch occurres here with regularity. It is akin to the nature / nurture debates common in all developmental studies.

Growing up we had a family in our neighborhood with six boys. Two could have been twins - they looked so alike. The other 4 were very different.
By adulthood they ranged from 5’ 7” to 6’ 2”. Big difference. Yet they had the same parents.

We seem to accept this easily in us humans but are rather surprised when other animals show such differences.

Our torts show behavioral differences that effect growth rates. Some eat more , exercise more, hide more, drink more - etc. these behavioral differences effect growth rates. When you factor in male / female , and genetic differences it’s gets even more complex. Plus tortoises can store sperm for long periods , and if multiple males are around , are not exactly monogamous. It is possible to have a clutch with multiple male parents.

In these larger species like Aldabras , we see large differences. I’ve mentioned before that if we could log rates for several 1,000d. 2yo on a bell curve we would undoubtably have an average - with fewer and fewer as we approached the outliers , but that would not tell us about the health of our individual Aldabra.

I watch for other health indicators more carefully than growth rates.

Currently there are just not enough records to give us accurate statistics on this species. My CupCake will be 4 yo next month. She ( could be he , I don’t know ) is about 25lbs. I know of one who was 35lbs at same age. Big difference !

But certainly I don’t think that indicates CupCake is stunted or unhealthy. There can be a big variance for a great variety of reasons.

Hi Alaskamike
Thank you for your feedback. I have been following your, thought provoking, posts which always seem to make complete sense. The factor relating to the likelihood that a clutch may have multiple male parents is something i hadn't contemplated before. Yes, there are indeed many other factors which contribute to to variances in growth rates as found in humans but Sesel's hypothesis relating to a correlation between gender and growth rate in these tortoises has me thinking. I imagine the only way we will know is by pulling together records and comparing growth rates in the first twelve months of the Aldabras life -both in the wild and in captivity. This is clearly a complex subject but it is definitely worth exploring- I will certainly continue to monitor my rates of Tiny and Titch and I hope other keepers will do the same and share findings. The pictures below show the size differences. Regards T

 

[Sesel]

 

[Alaskamike]

It seems monitoring growth rates - at least for first few years is very popular with Aldabra keepers.

It’s very possible that there is an average difference when in fast growth periods between those who eventually are males & female.

The keeping of these creatures by hobbiests has only recently become more common. But since determination of gender takes so long - up to 20 years + , it may be many years till we can look back on our records & compare those numbers

 

[Sesel]

 

[Sesel]

Spoiler: Is this what we call flashing?

Is that what we call 'flashing' or just trying to urinate/defecate?

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

@Sesel

~ Can you share the night time low temperatures at you location?

~ We are getting many e-mails, calls, etc. regarding minimum temperatures, our protocols are for sure on the conservative side, it would be great to know what the lows are in your location.

 

[Sesel]

@Sesel

~ Can you share the night time low temperatures at you location?

The Meteorological office here usually records lows of about 24°C/75.2F.
I just checked outside at around 9pm and it's 26.7C/80F. Rainy season and during Southeast trade winds will record slightly lower temperatures.

it would be great to know what the lows are in your location.

We have ordered a proper digital thermometer gun. Can report back if you would like accurate night time temperatures

 

[Markw84]

@Sesel

~ Can you share the night time low temperatures at you location?

~ We are getting many e-mails, calls, etc. regarding minimum temperatures, our protocols are for sure on the conservative side, it would be great to know what the lows are in your location.

Just as my "two cents worth"...

I find many ask this of all species, but fail to account for the drastic difference in the ground temperatures of the area. This is always asked about sulcatas = An overnight low of 40° here in Northern California with a ground temperature of 48° that I have now, is FFAAAARRR different than an unusual low of 40° in the southern sahiel where the ground temperature is 75°.

So an unusual dip like experienced in Florida now, is way different than that same temperature would be Missouri.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I find many ask this of all species, but fail to account for the drastic difference in the ground temperatures of the area.

~ Yes, we are always checking the sand in our barns to compare with the overall ambient temperatures we maintain at night. Good point!

 

[Markw84]

~ Yes, we are always checking the sand in our barns to compare with the overall ambient temperatures we maintain at night. Good point!

Tortoise know where to mitigate extreme temperatures! I thought this picture by @Sesel a bit further back in this post told a great story!!

 

[Sesel]

 

[TortyDxb]

Sesel, looks really lovely, well done. Smooth and eating - can't ask for much more than that

Can you tell me a little bit about where they sleep, is it in a damp or wet area? I'm going crazy trying to prevent this pyramiding issue (which has already begun). I'm with @ALDABRAMAN on not overfeeding and exercise, but then @Tom has extensive and comprehensive examples of humidity and an overall wet existence being key. In fact in some cases, he seems to prove diet is insignificant if a very wet environment is maintained.

What a confusion !!&&^£E(*£)0

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Can you tell me a little bit about where they sleep

~ As far as hatchlings, we keep them outside in controlled/covered pens similar to @Sesel does. We do not allow our new hatchlings (under 3" or under 30 days old) to go below 70f. If the night time temperatures go below 70f, we bring them inside, where they are maintained at 72f for the night and put back outside in the morning.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

is it in a damp or wet area?

~ Dry

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I'm with @ALDABRAMAN on not overfeeding and exercise

~ This works fantastic for us.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I'm going crazy trying to prevent this pyramiding issue

~ I have been working with tortoises in general, however my passion and focus has been mainly with the aldabra species for over thirty years. What has proven to be the most simple and optimal way to produce the healthiest and best shell growth is to feed them a natural diet (no commercial foods or supplements, fruit, etc. for the first year of growth), good hydration, ample space for high exercise levels and plenty of natural sunshine with many shade options. Anything less is simply going to compromise the process.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I'm going crazy trying to prevent this pyramiding issue

~ I have been working with tortoises in general, however my passion and focus has been mainly with the aldabra species for over thirty years. What has proven to be the most simple and optimal way to produce the healthiest and best shell growth is to feed them a natural diet (no commercial foods or supplements, fruit, etc. for the first year of growth), good hydration, ample space for high exercise levels and plenty of natural sunshine with many shade options. Anything less is simply going to compromise the process.
View attachment 227249

 

[TortyDxb]

~ This works fantastic for us.
View attachment 227240

Bloody hell those photos are insane!!! how do you ever let those beautiful things go??????

There is such consistency in your photos between each tortoise, it has to be the right way. Just has to be. Then looking at sesel's photos and realising he is achieving similar results, in pretty much the same enclosure, substrate (natural) layout and without the emphasis on wetness.