trouble with humidity baby sulcata

[Ali311]

I am still having trouble with humidity . I have a wooden box that is 3 x 2 x 1 for my baby sulcata. One part of it is a metal grate. I have covered the metal grate with foil tape except for a small section in the back for air flow and have openings for the lights. I am using cypress mulch and have spread some Spaghnum moss. I routinely wet it down and pour water and mix it up with my hands. The humidity goes up and then goes down. I’m trying to keep it around 80% but that usually goes up into the 80s and then right back down after watering. I keep the temperature in the mid 80s.

Is it necessary to always keep the humidity around 80 or can I just have a Humid hide?

I am also concerned about airflow. How will I have airflow if I cover the entire top with foil tape?

 

[TechnoCheese]

The airflow is the problem. Since you have the lights on the outside, it’s creating a chimney effect that’s bringing all of your warm, humid air out.

Opening the lid every day for feeding, soaking, etc. is enough airflow, and you need to have every hole covered.

 

[Ali311]

The airflow is the problem. Since you have the lights on the outside, it’s creating a chimney effect that’s bringing all of your warm, humid air out.

Opening the lid every day for feeding, soaking, etc. is enough airflow, and you need to have every hole covered.

thank you for your response. there is so much conflicting advice out there. I even watched a video...kamp kenan, where they were keeping hatchlings in an open container with just a humid hide. is that a bad idea? not enough humidity?

 

[Blackdog1714]

Closed Chamber- go to the Sulcata care sheet. Please post pictures

 

[Yvonne G]

What works for Kamp Kenan in his warm climate isn't appropriate for every single tortoise-keeper all over the world. I would not use any advice gotten from his site.

What you need for your baby is a closed chamber. He's not going to suffocate. Many, many of us have our tortoises in closed chambers and the babies are quite able to breathe and live.

Since you're having to jury rig a cover for the enclosure, my suggestion would be for you to cover the wire part with foil, then also go up and over the lights so the foil is on top of the lights, leaving no holes or spaces for the warm air inside to escape.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Yep, I second and third what’s been said. Kenan is located in warm, sub-tropical Southern Florida. You’re in Massachusetts. Big difference in what he can get away with but not us northern keepers.

Upload a pix of your enclosure, BUT, keep in mind that it might be a whole lot easier AND better for your Sully to start over and think/build/create a closed enclosure. But first, cover it all up. Then start thinking what you can improve to keep the heat and moisture inside AND have a nice large crawlable spot.

Good luck,

 

[Tom]

For many years, most us us raised this species in dry conditions. No damp substrate and no humid hide. We were told that this "desert" species would get shell rot and a respiratory infection if there was any humidity or dampness. We now know that this is completely false and the opposite is true. Well... some of us know... All of mine survived, but many others didn't. I've explained this first part in order to answer your question. If you maintain a drier environment but provide a humid hide, your tortoise will probably survive, but you will see much slower growth and some degree of pyramiding.

Through many years of experimenting, I, and thousands of other people all over the globe, have discovered that a closed chamber with the lighting and heating contained inside, and simulating monsoon season conditions, yields the best results. I would call this optimal. I would also call it the most "natural" because these are the conditions baby sulcatas hatch into in the wild. A bone dry enclosure with no water bowl, rabbit pellet substrate (Or some other dry substrate...), and a heat lamp, is what used to be recommended by all the books, vets, experts, and breeders. I would call this the worst possible way to house them. "Beef jerky makers" is what I call these set ups. Hang a strip of beef in one of these and see what you get. What you are doing is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. Your results will be somewhere in the middle too. I think your current enclosure is much closer to optimal than dismal, but personally, I strive for optimal.

Kenan is a nice guy, he means well, and he makes quality videos. Here's the problem: He's not that experienced and he teaches what he was taught. He was taught by the same guys that have been mistakenly promoting the dry routine for decades. That's where his info came from, so that's what he repeats. I used to say the same stuff. I also learned from those same sources when I began keeping this species back in the early 90s. The problem I encountered was that it didn't work. Each time I tried raising a new baby I would fail. They would grow slow and pyramid. Each time I failed, I would ask the "experts" why I failed. Each time they had an explanation, so I'd take the new info and try again, and fail again. This went on for years. I finally quit trying and laid low for a while. I almost quit keeping tortoises entirely. The top tortoise experts in the world couldn't tell me what was wrong or why I couldn't grow a smooth tortoise, and frankly, it was demoralizing. I knew they were wrong, but I hadn't yet figured out what was right or why it was right. My career takes me all over the world and all over the country. With lots and lots of observation and help from many sources, I was able to figure it out. Much experimentation, trial and error, brought me to the conclusion: Humidity and hydration were the missing pieces. I began trying to implement this new info and it worked. I did what you are doing and tried to make an open topped enclosure more humid. It was an improvement over the dry set ups, but the results were still not what I wanted. More research and more experimentation demonstrated what did work and why. I met a man who studies tortoises in Africa and he fill in a lot of the blanks for me. He explained how the rainy season and dry season work over there. He explained his own successes and failures in the native environment of the species. He explained a lot of how their behavior and fossorial nature keeps them growing smooth and healthy. I've shared this info here and try to explain it to lots and lots of people all over the place. You are welcome to use it.

Moss will likely be eaten by your tortoise and it can cause an impaction if he eats enough. I'd remove it. You don't need it and it doesn't do anything.

"Closed chamber" doesn't mean hermetically sealed and completely air tight. It just means reduced ventilation. If we want the interior of the enclosure to remain more humid than the room air where the enclosure sits, we have to reduce ventilation. There will still be plenty of air to breathe. I promise your tortoise won't suffocate. Having the lights outside uses double or triple the electricity usage, and it also creates that chimney effect that TechnoCheese mentioned. As an example, here is how I start all my babies now:https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/ So far, this is the best method I've found. @Markw84 has improved on this design by adding live plants, but I haven't figured out how to make that work for me yet.

Take all this in, and then please come back and ask more questions.

 

[PA2019]

Having the lights outside uses double or triple the electricity usage, and it also creates that chimney effect that TechnoCheese mentioned.

@Tom the chimney effect you are mentioning exists because of the heat/humidity rising and exiting out the holes at the top of the heat lamps right?

I experimented with polyimide film adhesive tape, which has heat resistance up to 200 degrees celsius due to curiosity about the chimney effect that is often stated here. I ran an iris Xmas tree box setup for weeks (24 hrs/day) with the light vents plugged and never had the tape/lamp show any signs of breakdown. Having a closed chamber setup I understand the benefits with the lights inside, but I found the tape was an alternative strategy.



Link to the aforementioned tape

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N1RHE2Q/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

 

[Tom]

@Tom the chimney effect you are mentioning exists because of the heat/humidity rising and exiting out the holes at the top of the heat lamps right?

I experimented with polyimide film adhesive tape, which has heat resistance up to 200 degrees celsius due to curiosity about the chimney effect that is often stated here. I ran an iris Xmas tree box setup for weeks (24 hrs/day) with the light vents plugged and never had the tape/lamp show any signs of breakdown. Having a closed chamber setup I understand the benefits with the lights inside, but I found the tape was an alternative strategy.

Those vent holes are there for a good reason. They are to keep the bulb and fixture from over heating. I wouldn't plug them. Plugging them might reduce the chimney effect and heat loss, but if you look at what's happening with thermal imaging, you will see a tremendous amount of heat loss and heat rising from those fixtures being outside.

I tried all sorts of ways to close in an open topped enclosure. Nothing worked well for me. Its certainly better than doing nothing at all, but the compromise of trying to close in the tops did not yield satisfactory results for me. I saw a marked improvement once I used an actual closed chamber with all the lights inside.

 

[Ali311]

thank you everyone. i am using 2, 60 watt bulbs, and a uvb 10.0 coil from zoo med. temp is between 85 and 90. i covered the top and other open areas with foil tape. humidity is 65-98. when it gets below 80 humidity, i try to spray it. the baby does less activity with the very high humidity but i see him walking around during 60-80% humidity. i know that 80% is ideal. I will keep trying, take a look at my setup. any suggestions are welcome. also, i did look up these ap cages, but im wondering how they are closed chamber if they too have spots for the lights on top. (under options)
https://apcages.com/collections/terrestrial-cages/products/t70-96l-x-36w-x-24h

 

[Ali311]

For many years, most us us raised this species in dry conditions. No damp substrate and no humid hide. We were told that this "desert" species would get shell rot and a respiratory infection if there was any humidity or dampness. We now know that this is completely false and the opposite is true. Well... some of us know... All of mine survived, but many others didn't. I've explained this first part in order to answer your question. If you maintain a drier environment but provide a humid hide, your tortoise will probably survive, but you will see much slower growth and some degree of pyramiding.

Through many years of experimenting, I, and thousands of other people all over the globe, have discovered that a closed chamber with the lighting and heating contained inside, and simulating monsoon season conditions, yields the best results. I would call this optimal. I would also call it the most "natural" because these are the conditions baby sulcatas hatch into in the wild. A bone dry enclosure with no water bowl, rabbit pellet substrate (Or some other dry substrate...), and a heat lamp, is what used to be recommended by all the books, vets, experts, and breeders. I would call this the worst possible way to house them. "Beef jerky makers" is what I call these set ups. Hang a strip of beef in one of these and see what you get. What you are doing is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. Your results will be somewhere in the middle too. I think your current enclosure is much closer to optimal than dismal, but personally, I strive for optimal.

Kenan is a nice guy, he means well, and he makes quality videos. Here's the problem: He's not that experienced and he teaches what he was taught. He was taught by the same guys that have been mistakenly promoting the dry routine for decades. That's where his info came from, so that's what he repeats. I used to say the same stuff. I also learned from those same sources when I began keeping this species back in the early 90s. The problem I encountered was that it didn't work. Each time I tried raising a new baby I would fail. They would grow slow and pyramid. Each time I failed, I would ask the "experts" why I failed. Each time they had an explanation, so I'd take the new info and try again, and fail again. This went on for years. I finally quit trying and laid low for a while. I almost quit keeping tortoises entirely. The top tortoise experts in the world couldn't tell me what was wrong or why I couldn't grow a smooth tortoise, and frankly, it was demoralizing. I knew they were wrong, but I hadn't yet figured out what was right or why it was right. My career takes me all over the world and all over the country. With lots and lots of observation and help from many sources, I was able to figure it out. Much experimentation, trial and error, brought me to the conclusion: Humidity and hydration were the missing pieces. I began trying to implement this new info and it worked. I did what you are doing and tried to make an open topped enclosure more humid. It was an improvement over the dry set ups, but the results were still not what I wanted. More research and more experimentation demonstrated what did work and why. I met a man who studies tortoises in Africa and he fill in a lot of the blanks for me. He explained how the rainy season and dry season work over there. He explained his own successes and failures in the native environment of the species. He explained a lot of how their behavior and fossorial nature keeps them growing smooth and healthy. I've shared this info here and try to explain it to lots and lots of people all over the place. You are welcome to use it.

Moss will likely be eaten by your tortoise and it can cause an impaction if he eats enough. I'd remove it. You don't need it and it doesn't do anything.

"Closed chamber" doesn't mean hermetically sealed and completely air tight. It just means reduced ventilation. If we want the interior of the enclosure to remain more humid than the room air where the enclosure sits, we have to reduce ventilation. There will still be plenty of air to breathe. I promise your tortoise won't suffocate. Having the lights outside uses double or triple the electricity usage, and it also creates that chimney effect that TechnoCheese mentioned. As an example, here is how I start all my babies now:https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/ So far, this is the best method I've found. @Markw84 has improved on this design by adding live plants, but I haven't figured out how to make that work for me yet.

Take all this in, and then please come back and ask more questions.

is there anyway that you could post these pictures full size? the forum website wont let me click on them to view larger. thank you.

 

[Tom]

View attachment 270974 View attachment 270975 View attachment 270976 thank you everyone. i am using 2, 60 watt bulbs, and a uvb 10.0 coil from zoo med. temp is between 85 and 90. i covered the top and other open areas with foil tape. humidity is 65-98. when it gets below 80 humidity, i try to spray it. the baby does less activity with the very high humidity but i see him walking around during 60-80% humidity. i know that 80% is ideal. I will keep trying, take a look at my setup. any suggestions are welcome. also, i did look up these ap cages, but im wondering how they are closed chamber if they too have spots for the lights on top. (under options)
https://apcages.com/collections/terrestrial-cages/products/t70-96l-x-36w-x-24h

The coil type bulbs are not effective as UV sources, and some of them damage tortoise eyes. They should not be used. The long tube HO types work best.

Here are some of my AP cages. The lighting and heating is all on the inside:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/stand-for-animal-plastics-enclosures.168915/#post-1651742

 

[Ali311]

What is the best size to get considering he will outgrow pretty much anything?

 

[Tom]

What is the best size to get considering he will outgrow pretty much anything?

My strategy is to keep them in 4x8 or 3x8 closed chambers until they reach 8-10". At that point I move them outside full time into a large enclosure that they are already used to with a heated night box. This works great in my warm sunny climate. In your climate, I think you'd need a heated room to move them into when the weather outside isn't favorable.

 

[Ali311]

thank you for the advice. I am going to try to make my own. do you mean 4ft wide by 8ft long? I did not see a section about how to put lights into a closed chamber enclosure. Where would I put the heat lamps? (right, center, etc). we usually use a daytime basking bulb and a nighttime basking bulb. Also how long would the fluorescent bulbs be? Would they run the entire length of the enclosure or just half? Most enclosures I see have a vent or two...but i think that would adversely affect the humidity....do you agree? also, i looked at allcages.com and they have a 8x4x48 (length, width, height)...i think 48 would be way too tall to get the advantages of the uvb bulb....right? it seems that the lamps are not inside of those cages...the bulbs sit in a screen of 8.5 inches. im not sure how that is closed chamber.

 

[g4mobile]

thank you for the advice. I am going to try to make my own. do you mean 4ft wide by 8ft long? I did not see a section about how to put lights into a closed chamber enclosure. Where would I put the heat lamps? (right, center, etc). we usually use a daytime basking bulb and a nighttime basking bulb. Also how long would the fluorescent bulbs be? Would they run the entire length of the enclosure or just half? Most enclosures I see have a vent or two...but i think that would adversely affect the humidity....do you agree? also, i looked at allcages.com and they have a 8x4x48 (length, width, height)...i think 48 would be way too tall to get the advantages of the uvb bulb....right? it seems that the lamps are not inside of those cages...the bulbs sit in a screen of 8.5 inches. im not sure how that is closed chamber.

I like this 4x8 by AP Cages. Considering the cost of materials and your labor, you might consider one.
https://apcages.com/collections/terrestrial-cages/products/t100-96l-x-48w-x-48h

 

[Ali311]

I was concerned about how far away is a UVB fixture would be. He is very young and not tall at all. Would the 48 inch height be too far away?

 

[Ali311]

I was concerned about how far away is a UVB fixture would be. He is very young and not tall at all. Would the 48 inch height be too far away?

 

[g4mobile]

I was concerned about how far away is a UVB fixture would be. He is very young and not tall at all. Would the 48 inch height be too far away?

You will have to adjust the height based on the UV output of your bulb and what species you’re keeping. Try this link. This is for 14% bulb and table to reference. The T5 comes with clips that have holes used for adjusting the height.

http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/arcadia-d3-ho-t5-14-uvb-dragon-lamp-22-inch/

 

[Ali311]

Should the UVB run the entire length of the Terranium or only half or less?