TRUE Bolivian Redfoot

Redfoot NERD

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Carl a few years back Douglas sent me those pics of his males - these were some of them also...



Look at the face and legs of him!!!



I would call him " absolutely incredibly beautiful " !!!! Can I get one AMEN?
 

Redfoot NERD

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The "non-marbled" plastron is a good indicator in even juvenile Bolivians.. compared to same age Brazilians showing the marbling.. isn't that true Carl. That's the simplest way to ID them.. which is the purpose of this thread. AND there are always exceptions and extremes!

These are sibling/cousin Bolivians from the same group that I acquired - showing the different plastron colors/patterns - which are within a 1/2 " of same size [ not sure of age.. represented as yearlings ]

smaller - ( sure am hoping he's a he! hehe )



larger - [ the light 'flecks' are the dry moss they were packed in ]

posted wrong pic.. see reply...
 

Redfoot NERD

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This is the yellow one from the start of this thread..

larger by about 1/2 " is all -



AGAIN .. the simplest ( safest? truest? ) way to determine a Bolivian is the 'dark' pattern covering most of the plastron.. especially the "frontal" plastron scutes. AS SEEN IN THE SMALLER ONE DIRECTLY ABOVE

The point / purpose of this thread is to "protect" someone from paying bigger bucks for a redfoot represented as a RARE Bolivian! - We see it with "Cherryheads" too often as it is!
 

Bryan

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I have seen Bolivians with marbling on the plastron and carapace. The amount of black on the plastron can also vary as seen on Doug Beard's incredible male specimen in post #21 in this thread. Sadly there have been some people over the years selling animals that look like non pure locale Bolivians as Bolivians so it is important to make sure that you are getting what you pay for and dealing with reputable people if your intent is to keep a pure locale Gran Chaco animal.
 

Bryan

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This is the yellow one from the start of this thread..

larger by about 1/2 " is all -



AGAIN .. the simplest ( safest? truest? ) way to determine a Bolivian is the 'dark' pattern covering most of the plastron.. especially the "frontal" plastron scutes. AS SEEN IN THE SMALLER ONE DIRECTLY ABOVE

The point / purpose of this thread is to "protect" someone from paying bigger bucks for a redfoot represented as a RARE Bolivian! - We see it with "Cherryheads" too often as it is!

Ultimately there are a number of factors in determining if the animal is a pure Gran Chaco redfoot. Generally speaking they do have more black on the plastron than Northerns. However there are other factors in play. An enlarged leg scale on the front legs, scale color, general appearance of the carapace and their scalation, etc. all play a part in determining if an animal appears to be the real McCoy.

The best bet is to buy from a reputable breeder such as Doug Beard. Interestingly enough I have noticed fairly significant appearance differences among neonates from 3 different solid Bolivian breeders. Two of them got some of the first picks from the 80's shipment(s) including Douglas.
 

cdmay

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Ultimately there are a number of factors in determining if the animal is a pure Gran Chaco redfoot. Generally speaking they do have more black on the plastron than Northerns. However there are other factors in play. An enlarged leg scale on the front legs, scale color, general appearance of the carapace and their scalation, etc. all play a part in determining if an animal appears to be the real McCoy.

The best bet is to buy from a reputable breeder such as Doug Beard. Interestingly enough I have noticed fairly significant appearance differences among neonates from 3 different solid Bolivian breeders. Two of them got some of the first picks from the 80's shipment(s) including Douglas.
Well said Bryan. All true.
 

tortadise

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I have seen Bolivians with marbling on the plastron and carapace. The amount of black on the plastron can also vary as seen on Doug Beard's incredible male specimen in post #21 in this thread. Sadly there have been some people over the years selling animals that look like non pure locale Bolivians as Bolivians so it is important to make sure that you are getting what you pay for and dealing with reputable people if your intent is to keep a pure locale Gran Chaco animal.
Indeed. I recently acquired a mature female Bolivian with incredible marbling on the plastron. It's an F3 animal from the 80s import parents. Quite interesting. She is starting to nest now actually. In process of neonates I'd be curious In seeing how some of the young reared up display the physical chacteristics of the typical black plastron of
The grand Chaco.

Male breeding her has solid black plastron and she has marbled. Wonder what plays of this as time comes.
 

N2TORTS

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what does the top side look like Jeff?

that male has the looks of a Bolivian for sure... or has he become melanistic.. or whatever you call it when most colors fade to dark and almost colorless?
You put this on here Jeff.. what is it? age? size? locale? How does it apply to this thread? Please?

Terry….didn’t mean to ruffle your feathers, but as Carl pointed out and hit the nail on the head. This is an Adult breeder Cherry Head 10" I obtained in 2002. As you can see his plastron does not fit the “typical” phenotype label that most try and identify (a marbled plastron) as a Cherry Head. Therefore once again mentioned… looking for other indicators will need to be assessed before making a more accurate ID on the “local/type” of animal, or as Bryan mentioned and others, getting from a reputable first hand linage of the animal.

Some DO care to read more in-depth and learn – maybe new to the hobby, a more informative answer and not so “concrete” helps with folks in making their own judgment and more research if they wish. This is why I added it to the thread. Much like the question of a phenotype presented by you and then maybe didn’t like the answer- or not caring to learn more in detail, instead making a smart remark about showing off? I have tried sending you emails but seems your “mail domain” rejects them. I had purchased two animals from you in 2009/10 around 5” and was wondering if you could ID them for me. So when I get asked about the female who has been producing Het babies I can correctly pass that information along.

 

cdmay

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The above male of N2TORTS is an interesting dude who looks very similar to my male named Moe. I don't want to attempt to guess at a percentage here, but it seems that many adult cherry-heads develop this very same dark plastron. All three of my big females look exactly like this guy and as I mentioned, so does Moe. Yet when younger at least two of my females had a somehwhat marbled plastron.
So if a high number of fully adult cherry-heads develop the essentially black plastron that a high number of Bolivian red-foots possess, one could see why you would need to assess the animal as a whole, and not just go by plastron pattern or color alone.

In my mind the big Chaco tortoises ( and BTW, not all of them get to be really huge and many remain at a fairly modest size) have a number of traits that make them identifiable. Some of these traits are subtle, or are hard to explain to someone who hasn't seen a lot of wild imported animals that had at least some collection data (i.e. at least country of origin) with them.

This is an inherent problem with captive animals that turn up in collections. No one can really say just where a tortoise (or boa, or python, etc) came from exactly unless they were there when it was found, or they have accurate and reliable source information from the person who has the animal. Unfortunately, the tortoise hobby is rife with goofballs trying to pass off odd looking red-footed tortoises as Bolivian or Argentinian or Paraguayan without any real idea, or proof of what they in fact are and this adds to the misinformation and confusion among keepers.
Another problem is that more and more often a captive produced tortoise turns up that is a result of someone's mixed breeding, either by intent (as in spreading around an albino, hypo, or leucistic trait) or by accident when different species or subspecies are kept together. These animals typically resemble one parent or the other...mostly. But with some subtle features of the other parent so that it never completly looks like either.
Although such things are perfectly fine to some keepers it drives me crazy. Maybe I'm a purist, or unrealistic.
 

Anyfoot

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You have all got my knickers in a twist AGAIN.
Can someone show me what you guys in USA consider to be a normal looking Brazilian (aka cherryhead) plastron. Mine have got a completely dark plastron like what is referred to as Bolivian. Obviously mine are not Bolivian.
This is a 9.5" SCL female and a 8" SCL male. Apart from the size, what is the difference between these 2 plastrons and a Bolivian that has a complete dark plastron.(i.,e not the Bolivian that nerd posted in this thread).

IMG_1231.JPG IMG_1233.JPG
 

Redfoot NERD

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The above male of N2TORTS is an interesting dude who looks very similar to my male named Moe. I don't want to attempt to guess at a percentage here, but it seems that many adult cherry-heads develop this very same dark plastron. All three of my big females look exactly like this guy and as I mentioned, so does Moe. Yet when younger at least two of my females had a somehwhat marbled plastron.
So if a high number of fully adult cherry-heads develop the essentially black plastron that a high number of Bolivian red-foots possess, one could see why you would need to assess the animal as a whole, and not just go by plastron pattern or color alone.

In my mind the big Chaco tortoises ( and BTW, not all of them get to be really huge and many remain at a fairly modest size) have a number of traits that make them identifiable. Some of these traits are subtle, or are hard to explain to someone who hasn't seen a lot of wild imported animals that had at least some collection data (i.e. at least country of origin) with them.

This is an inherent problem with captive animals that turn up in collections. No one can really say just where a tortoise (or boa, or python, etc) came from exactly unless they were there when it was found, or they have accurate and reliable source information from the person who has the animal. Unfortunately, the tortoise hobby is rife with goofballs trying to pass off odd looking red-footed tortoises as Bolivian or Argentinian or Paraguayan without any real idea, or proof of what they in fact are and this adds to the misinformation and confusion among keepers.
Another problem is that more and more often a captive produced tortoise turns up that is a result of someone's mixed breeding, either by intent (as in spreading around an albino, hypo, or leucistic trait) or by accident when different species or subspecies are kept together. These animals typically resemble one parent or the other...mostly. But with some subtle features of the other parent so that it never completly looks like either.
Although such things are perfectly fine to some keepers it drives me crazy. Maybe I'm a purist, or unrealistic.

Carl if nothing else [ purist, or unrealistic ] you are practical and honest - it drives me crazy too.. dealing with the egos and emotions and goofballs that exists on Forums these days! You took the words right out of my mouth - thank you!

What can we expect - I am talking about Bolivian . carbonaria and next thing we know the discussion goes Paraguayan and Gran Chaco and Argentinian. Then -- 'I've got one that looks like that one...!

Granted ( generally speaking ) all these "territories" touch the other { if they can fly that is }... so we have unknown sources "cross-breeding" in nature [ for eons ] and captivity [ for decades ] - and try to 'pin-point' identity????? Maybe like you or me or others Carl .. I'm done laughing and crying about the claims of the "science-heads" and the "goofballs" ! My only question is - how do we tell the difference?
 

cdmay

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You have all got my knickers in a twist AGAIN.
Can someone show me what you guys in USA consider to be a normal looking Brazilian (aka cherryhead) plastron. Mine have got a completely dark plastron like what is referred to as Bolivian. Obviously mine are not Bolivian.
This is a 9.5" SCL female and a 8" SCL male. Apart from the size, what is the difference between these 2 plastrons and a Bolivian that has a complete dark plastron.(i.,e not the Bolivian that nerd posted in this thread).

View attachment 175982 View attachment 175983

Anyfoot, those are very typical, if not outstanding(!), cherry-head plastrons.
 

Redfoot NERD

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You have all got my knickers in a twist AGAIN.
Can someone show me what you guys in USA consider to be a normal looking Brazilian (aka cherryhead) plastron. Mine have got a completely dark plastron like what is referred to as Bolivian. Obviously mine are not Bolivian.
This is a 9.5" SCL female and a 8" SCL male. Apart from the size, what is the difference between these 2 plastrons and a Bolivian that has a complete dark plastron.(i.,e not the Bolivian that nerd posted in this thread).

View attachment 175982 View attachment 175983

Anyfoot ---- change knickers!

How many times have we talked about this thru personal emails? Go back and read what I said about the differences.. and listen instead of 'thinking' - Carl just now said the same things. So among the "multitudes" he's seen - if we set aside the 'exceptions and extremes' and look at them - from a distance.. and not a magnifying glass - we will see a common look that is different(?).. than further North in Brazil and North of the Amazon.

We / they are [ and I am ] trying to balance this mass confusion... and obviously the more said.. the more confusing it gets.
 

Anyfoot

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Anyfoot ---- change knickers!

How many times have we talked about this thru personal emails? Go back and read what I said about the differences.. and listen instead of 'thinking' - Carl just now said the same things. So among the "multitudes" he's seen - if we set aside the 'exceptions and extremes' and look at them - from a distance.. and not a magnifying glass - we will see a common look that is different(?).. than further North in Brazil and North of the Amazon.

We / they are [ and I am ] trying to balance this mass confusion... and obviously the more said.. the more confusing it gets.
So what are you saying terry?
The further south Brazilians are, the darker the plastrons get just like the Bolivians.
 

cdmay

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"What can we expect - I am talking about Bolivian . carbonaria and next thing we know the discussion goes Paraguayan and Gran Chaco and Argentinian. Then -- 'I've got one that looks like that one...!"

NERD, don't forget that the biotope that the Bolivian red-foots you have come from extends outside the legal boundaries of Bolivia. So the very same kind of red-foot that you have also occurs in neighboring Paraguay in the region known as the 'Gran Chaco'. The Gran Chaco is a huge area that extends north past Trinidad, Bolivia and then east to the Mato Grasso of Brazil, then south past Asuncion, Paraguay all the way down into Argentina.
This region is where these big, very cool tortoises come from and they are indeed found in Bolivia, Paraguay and even Argentina.
The carbonaria were exported to the US in pretty big numbers from Bolivia in the 80s and then again from Paraguay later on. BOTH groups of these tortoises appear to be pretty much the same type (or phenotype if you will) of animal.
So this is why some of us have included the moniker of Gran Chaco or Paraguayan when describing them. When the specific country of origin is known however, either Bolivian or Paraguayan is used. I don't know of any Argentinian red-foots in the US.
Although there might very well be some.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Craig.. it appears that the closer we get to one "territory".. the more "mixed" they become.

Many of the "Brazilians" came from here. - http://www.geochelone.com.br/usa/historico.cfm

Unfortunately alot of the info is confusing as well. And hardly any plastron pics - only one juvenile and a couple adults.

This is a young male when he was vary young.. less than 7" SCL -



And maybe 9" SCL -
 

Redfoot NERD

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Anyfoot the above only tells us that that particular one retained the marbled plastron... and again I doubt he was much more than 20 years old in the bottom pic.. if that!
 

Redfoot NERD

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"What can we expect - I am talking about Bolivian . carbonaria and next thing we know the discussion goes Paraguayan and Gran Chaco and Argentinian. Then -- 'I've got one that looks like that one...!"

NERD, don't forget that the biotope that the Bolivian red-foots you have come from extends outside the legal boundaries of Bolivia. So the very same kind of red-foot that you have also occurs in neighboring Paraguay in the region known as the 'Gran Chaco'. The Gran Chaco is a huge area that extends north past Trinidad, Bolivia and then east to the Mato Grasso of Brazil, then south past Asuncion, Paraguay all the way down into Argentina.
This region is where these big, very cool tortoises come from and they are indeed found in Bolivia, Paraguay and even Argentina.
The carbonaria were exported to the US in pretty big numbers from Bolivia in the 80s and then again from Paraguay later on. BOTH groups of these tortoises appear to be pretty much the same type (or phenotype if you will) of animal.
So this is why some of us have included the moniker of Gran Chaco or Paraguayan when describing them. When the specific country of origin is known however, either Bolivian or Paraguayan is used. I don't know of any Argentinian red-foots in the US.
Although there might very well be some.

Of course Carl - other than terrain - nothing really separates these does it. How much does the flora change.. and how much does that influence anything? GOD only knows --- literally.

Aren't we having fun Craig?
 
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