Unusual carapace

[KenG]

My wife & I rescued a 125-pound male Sulcata yesterday, & are wondering if we can figure out how his carapace got so malformed.

His front 2/3 looks perfectly normal, followed by a non-symmetrical "wasp waist" that flares back to normal shape at his tail. I've Attached a photo for reference.

He is obviously healthy & has fairly normal sexual function, as he mated with four of our five mature females within the first two hours, & heartily dug into a pile of vegetables shortly afterward.

I should mention that we've been raising & rescuing tortoises for over 30 years, & have quite a lot of experience with Sulcatas. The former owner had him since he was about 3 inches, & said that the carapace shape was always like that.

I would appreciate comments & ideas. Thanks in advance!

 

[Meg90]

Why would you let a brand new "rescued" animal in with your existing tortoises without a quarantine period??? That's just begging for trouble.

I don't think you should call yourself a rescuer if you are breeding animals. Most rescues are disbarred from their qualifications if they are found breeding animals, or allowing them to breed on the premises.

Are you certified?

I have no idea why his carapace is so deformed. Was something done to him when he was young, and his shell was still malleable? At best its an injury. It would be kinda crappy if its in his genetics, seeing as he just bred four females?? Again, I miss the logic.

Welcome to the forum. Lots of good information here.

 

[KenG]

Aloha, Meg:

We have a strict 60-day quarantine rule, but had to make an exception in this case: we just ran out of room as we have five other Sulcatas in quarantine. We decided to make an exception because the former owner had him as an only tortoise for over 20 years with no sign of illness.

There is no specific certification for tortoise rescue in Hawaii, & we've teamed with the local Humane Society & SPCA for 20 years. When our Sulcatas get large enough (usually around 200 pounds), we donate them to the zoo.

As far as breeding, we breed box turtles, & haven't tried with Sulcatas or Pardalis. As you probably know, Meg, Sulcatas require either a hill or at least an area in which to dig before they'll lay eggs, so we've used 6" mesh on the floor of the cage area (20' x 30') to preclude egg-laying (& digging out). That doesn't mean they've never laid eggs, but the dozen or so we've recovered intact have never hatched.

The carapace malformation has us really curious, so I'm hoping to get some more ideas for this forum.

 

[Annieski]

Hello Ken and welcome. I only have 1 Sulcata, Mortimer. He is almost 3 and weighs 10.5 pounds. Originally, he was my son's[along with two roommates from college]and we think Morty was about 3 months old when they got him. Morty has a "dent" between the 4th and 5th central schute which was pointed out by a reptile vet on an unrelated issue--she said the "deformity" could have possibly been from how Morty was in the egg. I don't know if that's the case but it hasn't prevented him from growing or being a Sulcata. For the age of your's--I would guess a similar situation -- even if it was from some kind of injury.

 

[DAC8671]

It almost looks like when he was little something was tied around him. Maybe to help "train" him to walk with the owner???? Looks like something TIGHT was tied. You know how it looks when a dog collar is too tight and embedded in the skin? (Maybe I watch too much Animal Cops on Animal Planet! LOL)

 

[KenG]

Thanks for that info, Annieski. I've been doing some checking with a local vet, & she thinks that Kong may have been born without a couple of ribs. I did check with his former owner who said that nothing was ever tied around him - which was also my first guess.

His appetite certainly isn't affected by his carapace shape! He wasn't too excited about the Timothy hay, but did try to bury himself in vegetables . He ate a whole tomato in one bite! We'll definitely watch our fingers until he gets used to us feeding him.

We're having our usual sunny weather here, & it's about 83F, so all of the tortoises migrate around the cage following the sunlight, & Kong is right in the middle. I don't think he had ever seen a female Sulcata before, so his new home must seem heavenly to him!

 

[Annieski]

I visited Oahu and several other islands, on three different occassions and I would "love" to be one of your rescues. Today, our weather was very nice as well, but I think Morty would like it in Hawaii as well.

 

[KenG]

Funny how often I get that reaction, Annieski.... A New Jersey spring day just isn't the same as one in Hawaii, especially if you're a tortoise.

Our coldest winter days are still in the mid to high 60s, & our average temperature range is 72-80F all year round. Our lucky tortoises live right under a guava tree that drops fruit on them year-round. And we have a huge old mango tree that gives us 3X as many head-sized golden fruit as we can eat or give away, so guess who gets all the extras? Lots of calcium in their diet, to say the least.

We had one Sulcata that last year got so big from scarfing down mangoes that it took two zoo personnel plus my wife & me to get him into their truck to his new home at the zoo. They estimated him at 325 pounds, which is by far the biggest Sulcata any of us had seen. They have Aldabaras that are smaller!

 

[chadk]

Hi Ken. Wish I could help, but have no idea. My sullie that I adopted is about 40lbs and has a slight indentation in that same area - but nothing like that. With mine, was was thinking that he may have had MDB at one point while really young.

Meg - you really need to work on your tact when new folks stop in...

Ken, is fruit a big part of the diet you feed your sullies? What kind of veggies?

 

[egyptiandan]

Hi Ken,
Either someone strapped something around his middle while he was growing or it is genetic. It doesn't look like he ever had MBD.
I am though wondering about your method of birth control with your sulcatas. It's really not a good idea to have males mating your females and than prevent the females from digging nests to bury their eggs. You can run into lots of trouble with egg binding and infection from a female retaining her eggs to long. I would set-up a spot where the females can lay (not near any of the fencing) and if you don't want to incubate the eggs, just destroy them. But much better to let the females lay naturally.

Danny

 

[KenG]

Aloha, Chad -

Don't worry about Meg - I understand where she's coming from, although it might have been better if she had first asked about breeding....

Living in Hawaii, it's hard not to give our torts quite a few fruits. As mentioned above, I would estimate that 15 pounds of guava fall into their enclosure every day, & for 5-6 months each year we do have a huge excess of mangoes (have you ever seen an orange-faced Sulcata? Hilarious!) We have Timothy & alfalfa hays available for them all the time; half of them like it, & the others ignore it. They get dark-green vegetables twice a week, & fruits maybe once a week, other than what falls in. We also have plats of Bermuda grass that we give them every week or two (anything that grows in the enclosure gets eaten instantly), along with hibiscus flowers, leaves from our African tulip tree, & lots of kudzu. It's probably not as diverse a diet as what they would get in the Sahel, but we do our best.

Their enclosure is 20'x30', with 6-inch steel mesh on five sides. We tried leaving the bottom just grass & earth, but after two of the buggers tunneled out & almost escaped, we added the bottom mesh. There are two trees that partially overshadow the enclosure, plus we have a 4'x8' sheet of plywood propped up as a roof to give them shade if needed. Our temperature is almost ideal year-round, so there's not any need for other protection. The central area is built up so that our occasional heavy rains flow around them, although most of them seem to enjoy the water. We have three sections to the enclosure, one each for the small, mid-size, & large Sulcatas. Our two large Pardalis are also in the small guys' area, & they do just fine bossing the others around.

The best part is that the enclosure is only 15 feet behind our house, & we spend many hours just watching our "Jurassic Park" out our windows. It amazes me how many of our new guests don't realize that we have tortoises, rather than large rocks!

 

[Tom]

Welcome to the forum Ken. I have to call B.S. You are breaking every "rule" of tortoise keeping. You must be trying to get a rise out of everyone. Pretty funny.

A 325 pound Sulcata? A 200 pound sulcata? I don't think so. I won't say its impossible, but I will say that in 20 years of messin' with sulcatas all over the world, I've never seen one anywhere near that size. I've seen a couple of giants that MIGHT have been pushing 150, but certainly not 200 or 325. Do you have a pic with a size reference in it? I will gladly eat some humble pie and apologize, if I am wrong.

If you are really not joking, then I hope you will let us help you give your tortoises a better life.

 

[KenG]

Danny, you have a good point on egg-binding, but we really haven't been able to figure out a good way to let the females bury their eggs without losing them. We tried adding a large mound of dirt in several areas, but of course they just bulldozed those flat in no time. And although our soil is rocky, we had torts tunneling out as soon as they had any access to the bare earth. We even installed a wood box filled with soil, with a ramp, & actually had one or two torts climb into it, but they never laid any eggs in two years. I'm sure open to any ideas you may have.

So what we've done is place several cinder blocks in the enclosure; gravid females climb on top & lay their eggs into "space," which seems to be sufficient for them. Linda & I have rescued a number of eggs (we have 8 now in incubation), but no luck with hatching Sulcatas so far. Our box turtles don't tunnel, & breed like crazy, though.

 

[N2TORTS]

It almost looks like when he was little something was tied around him. Maybe to help "train" him to walk with the owner???? Looks like something TIGHT was tied. You know how it looks when a dog collar is too tight and embedded in the skin? (Maybe I watch too much Animal Cops on Animal Planet! LOL)

Yes ... without being funny I thought the same thing! It looks as though he was " chained" to something with the chain being wrapped around him as well? Perhaps to keep him from wandering off?
I have never seen that much deformity...in a large Sulky~

 

[KenG]

His former owner kept him on a 12'x20' concrete slab for the past 20 years - not exactly the best substrate for a tortoise - but said that his carapace was always shaped that way from the 3-inch size he was when they got him. Not sure why that would require being tied up, so I believe him when he said they never tied or restrained him.

 

[egyptiandan]

I agree Tom that the 325lbs is probably a bit exaggerated The largest sulcatas I ever heard of were a 235lb male and a 190lb female.

Here goes Ken, but it's going to be a bit of work Find a nice sunny spot in the pen. Cut the wire in a 6' X 6' (or any size you want) square. Dig out a hole to a depth of 3 feet. Line this hole with wire. Fill in the hole with dirt. Escape proof laying area

Danny

 

[terryo]

How about some pictures? I think we'd all love to see your animals and where you live. It does sound beautiful there...and welcome.

 

[KenG]

Meg, I'm curious as to why you would find a tomato inappropriate for a large Sulcata? I of course realize that not many would be encountered in the Sahel, but I'm sure you eat a bit of "junk food" every now & then. I've already listed what we're feeding our torts, so if you find anything objectionable, please do let me know.

I'm amazed at some of the local plants that our tortoises love. We have a really ugly tree called an African tulip that is considered a weed out here, & one of the branches fell into their enclosure a few years ago, & all of a sudden FEEDING FRENZY!! Linda & I watched in amazement, & have since added those trees to their diet. Similarly with kudzu, a fast-growing weed with orange-yellow "bulbs," the torts go nuts over it. I've looked to see if plants like these grow in Sahel, but there's not a lot of info that I've found. If anyone does have a link to endemic plants over there, please post it.

Danny, we did try something similar to what you suggested (only 2'x2'), but just ended up with some badly-scratched tortoises as they tried to dig out, & no eggs were ever laid. Sulcatas evidently want a much larger & shallower laying area. I don't know how many of you have experience with their digging capabilities, but we did a rescue back in Phoenix a few years ago, & finally found the mid-size female at the end of a 20-foot tunnel that twisted & turned. And according to the homeowner, that tunnel wasn't there a few days before. Our yard is about 50% rocks mixed with clay-like dirt, & we watched as one female bored through it like it was sand - that's why we had to line the bottom of the enclosure with 6" mesh. Bulldozers with brains & lots of time....

 

[Tom]

Ken, your post has really given me pause. I guess you are not kidding about how you keep and feed them.

I've completely done a 180 on humidity for "desert" species of tortoise in the last couple of years. I always did it the old way, dry,because that's how I learned that it is supposed to be done.

Your post is making me rethink some of my other longstanding tenants, as well. Why can't we all feed a whole bunch of fruit to our tortoises? Over the years we've all been taught that its just not the thing to do. Too much sugar, too much water, etc... I've never followed a sulcata around in the wild for three months, during the rainy season, when the fruit trees are fruiting and watched to see what they are eating all day. Maybe fruit is a huge part of a sulcatas diet during some parts of the year. How do we know its not? Because we read it on the internet or in an old book? If you've been doing it for 30 years and yours are alive and well, AND growing very large too, it can't be as bad as we all think it is.

For your original question, I'd have to guess MBD. Their skeletons get very rubbery with MBD and the muscles, tendons and ligaments can then pull their bones and bodies into odd shapes. When the bones recalcify they can recalcify in the wrong shape. I've seen this a lot with lizards, mostly bearded dragons and iguanas, but I'm sure it can happen with tortoises too. I've got a seventeen year old Iguana with with a weird kink in her tail for this very reason. When she had the MBD her tail looked normal, but as her skeletal system recalcified, it got kinked all funny.

Now one thing I do have a problem with is your pen size. 20x30 is too small, in my opinion, for a bunch of large sulcatas. I keep my babies in pens that size. If possible, I would enlarge it.

Please post some pics for us. If you go to tinypic.com its easy as pie. You don't have to sign up, give then any info, have an account or any of that nonsense. Just upload your pic, then copy and paste the IMG code into your post on the forum here. Here a link to tinypic:

http://tinypic.com/

 

[KenG]

Linda & I grew up in Arizona, long enough ago that desert tortoises would wander through our yards. My house was very close to a dry arroyo (stream) so that my dad & I were able to fence in nearly an acre & we could watch to see what our three desert torts would normally eat, as well as penning up my horse nearby. No surprise that they ate lots of grasses & weeds, & the occasional chunk of cactus & its fruit. But what did surprise me is that they would also dig burrows right near our small grove of orange & other fruit trees, & obviously ate those when we let them fall & rot. Even more strange was that they would also eat small amounts of manure from my horse.

From these observations, Tom, it was pretty obvious that tortoises are opportunists when it comes to eating, & although I don't know what their natural environment offers in the way of fruits & vegetables, I decided many years ago that as long as I fed them a diet that included at least half grasses, flowering plants, & similar foods, they should also do well with fruits/veggies/greens/etc. I can't think of any we've lost due to dietary problems in the 32 years Linda & I have been married, & they sure keep growing out here! No pyramiding or any other problems that weren't there when we got them. We do monitor their poops to be sure they aren't getting runny or weird-looking, & also have those tested by our vet a few times each year - so far, so good.

I agree with you on the size of our pen, but there's unfortunately nothing we can do about that. Our home is on 1/3 acre, which is considered huge in Hawaii. An acre of bare land in my neighborhood sells for around $350,000, assuming it's not near the water or has an ocean view; those lots sell for at least double. Our property also has three levels, with our house sitting on the lowest level, & the enclosure sitting on the second level. The problem is that our entire lot is only 55' wide, & the second level from front to back is only 23', with stairs coming down from upstairs to the left of the pen. So since we have to obviously access all sides of the pen, we just don't have any more room. The situation is complicated by the fact that we can't put up any fence higher than 3', so we have uninvited people wandering through our yard fairly often. We can lock our enclosure, of course, but unless we can see the entire pen through our back windows, we're never sure if there's a problem. The upper level isn't visible from our ground floor, so that's out.

I promise to post some photos when I have a bit of time & solve a technical problem. I'm a computer consultant & Adobe dealer, but when I installed their new Creative Suite 5 last week, for some reason, Photoshop keeps crashing, & I'm working with their tech support to figure out why. That's what I use to resize my high-res photos.

On Kong's carapace, Melissa Kaplan (http://www.anapsid.org) guesses that he was born without a couple of ribs on both sides, especially because the indents aren't symmetrical or exactly opposite each other. MBD is certainly a possibility, but I guess we'll never know for sure. He's certainly an active tort, although I've found that he doesn't like to be touched on the sides, jerking strongly when I or the other tortoises touch there. Considering that he was raised on a concrete slab with minimal human contact for 18 years, I can't say that I blame him for being touchy, though.