Updated TortoiseTrust substrate post

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’m really curious on everyone’s thoughts about this one too! I just gave it a read, there felt like a lot of jabs at the forum in there
Certainly makes for another interesting topic

Coco Coir Substrates for Testudo Species: Myth Busters Episode 10: UPDATED

A. C. HighfieldA relatively recent phenomenon (within the past 15 years), apparently driven by advice and recommendations on social media groups and internet forums, is the use of coco coir as a substrate for Mediterranean tortoises and related Testudo species such as the Asian Testudo...

www.tortoisetrust.com

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I’m really curious on everyone’s thoughts about this one too! I just gave it a read, there felt like a lot of jabs at the forum in there
Certainly makes for another interesting topic

Coco Coir Substrates for Testudo Species: Myth Busters Episode 10: UPDATED

A. C. HighfieldA relatively recent phenomenon (within the past 15 years), apparently driven by advice and recommendations on social media groups and internet forums, is the use of coco coir as a substrate for Mediterranean tortoises and related Testudo species such as the Asian Testudo...

www.tortoisetrust.com

I read it twice and am still digesting it all. One thing I didn't see mentioned was the need for elevated humidity levels for babies of most species. I couldn't tell what age range they were discussing for their tests.

As far as the fruit fly issue, what keeper hasn't experienced that? Store bought greens are often riddled with fruit flies. I used apple cider vinegar in little containers to keep them at bay.

All that said, I've never used coco coir in any of my enclosures. Only fine grade orchid bark. The article discussed similar properties between the two. Like many other keepers, I use it for humidity elevation and control. I am paranoid of using foggers. Too much can go wrong if they're not set up and maintained properly.

When I'm a bit more awake, I'll read the article for a third time. Quite a bit being covered there that my brain is not yet prepared to fully absorb. lol

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

We are once again going into "sand debate". I don't think there is a need for that: everything's in the old thread.

About scientific basis: Andy has done a lot of research of natural Testudo species habitats, using data loggers, soil probes and such. He has some comparative data on bone density of wild and captive tortoises and so on. His recommendations are in line with his findings and TFO care sheets for Testudo species - are not. Then he turns "salesman mode" on and promotes his care sheets as "the best way to raise any Temperate species". That, in my opinion, drops the credibility of his posts to the floor.

This article, I think, takes a more weighted approach: https://marginata.dk/Artikler/bundlag.html (in-browser translator is not very accurate but still you can get the main ideas). Interesting, that while Otto recommends high humidity for Testudo baby tortoises, he still insists on controlled growth rate and high-fiber diet.

 

[RandyTortoise]

I read it twice and am still digesting it all. One thing I didn't see mentioned was the need for elevated humidity levels for babies of most species. I couldn't tell what age range they were discussing for their tests.

As far as the fruit fly issue, what keeper hasn't experienced that? Store bought greens are often riddled with fruit flies. I used apple cider vinegar in little containers to keep them at bay.

All that said, I've never used coco coir in any of my enclosures. Only fine grade orchid bark. The article discussed similar properties between the two. Like many other keepers, I use it for humidity elevation and control. I am paranoid of using foggers. Too much can go wrong if they're not set up and maintained properly.

When I'm a bit more awake, I'll read the article for a third time. Quite a bit being covered there that my brain is not yet prepared to fully absorb. lol

I read it slowly. There is a lot of information here. I think what resonated with me is a few take aways.

The substrate itself has little to do with alot of health issues. If proper care and set up are given as well as ensuring you are feeding your tortoises enough food and on proper slate plates or otherwise, you will probably not have your tortoise eating its substrate. This is essentially the big picture from the article.

Their point on humidity levels that coconut substrate holds is significant if you have an older arid tortoise that doesn’t need high humidity. They say that may not be healthy (implied). They say nothing about hatchlings, which is ok.

Their point is that you should focus substrate on your specific species vs just giving blanket advice that this or that substrate isn’t good for captive tortoises. I totally agree with that.

For me, this substrate debate is never going to be solved. There should be no debate. Their point is that there is no “perfect” substrate and what works for one may not work for another keeper or species.

An example not mentioned but never really dealt with on the forum is the massive amount of dust that reptibark and other substrates produce when they dry out and are trodden on all day by tortoises. That dust gets in their food, water and on their skin and all over your house. We talk about not wanting our tortoises to ingest their substrate but for anything that produces dust, you are putting that in their system.

I have experimented with different substrates and for me, my solution would be criticized by 20 people and liked by 10. What matters is if you know the humidity you desire, that you don’t want them to eat non food items and you don’t want dust or other fibers accidentally in their food then go for that goal. Regardless of what other want to preach about their perfect method etc…

There is a lot of great information here and we all should suck it in, understand what we want and find our own solutions. That having been said, if someone is putting their tort on cat litter and beach sand there is time for a scolding.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I read it twice and am still digesting it all. One thing I didn't see mentioned was the need for elevated humidity levels for babies of most species. I couldn't tell what age range they were discussing for their tests.

As far as the fruit fly issue, what keeper hasn't experienced that? Store bought greens are often riddled with fruit flies. I used apple cider vinegar in little containers to keep them at bay.

All that said, I've never used coco coir in any of my enclosures. Only fine grade orchid bark. The article discussed similar properties between the two. Like many other keepers, I use it for humidity elevation and control. I am paranoid of using foggers. Too much can go wrong if they're not set up and maintained properly.

When I'm a bit more awake, I'll read the article for a third time. Quite a bit being covered there that my brain is not yet prepared to fully absorb. lol

Same here! I’m disappointed there was no mention on ages, that’s definitely something they should have factored in.

And yes exactly! We’ve had fruit flies being an issue in enclosures with lower humidity, I don’t think humidity is the leading factor for those infestations, so that was a bit of a cheap shot.

I feel the same about humidifiers, not worth the risk when there’s simply more efficient ways. At the end of the day, if you need a humidifier to keep humidity up, your enclosure has too much air exchange somewhere, period.

Forgive I’m going to go in here, maybe I need to vent on a new post altogether but

Personally, we aren’t a fan a coir either, it’s not our preferred substrate in terms of ‘messiness’, we have used it, does a fine job when maintained and laid down properly, it’s just not for us. I know of numerous keepers in person who keep their Russian tortoises on coir with zero issues, I know of even more through socials. What I disliked about this article is how vague it was about these ‘potential’ problems the higher humidity coir is when burrowed in, they really tried to hammer home how they “ourselves used various combinations of sand and topsoil substrates for well over 20 years when we were based in the UK, working with Testudo graeca, Testudo ibera, Testudo marginata, Testudo horsfieldii, Testudo hermanni and Testudo kleinmanni. We not only kept large numbers of all these, but we successfully bred them all too. Some photos of the exact setups used are included in the outdoor housing article linked earlier. In all that time, and with many hundreds of tortoises, we never encountered one single incident where such substrates caused any harm at all.”

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, this whole ‘well we used sandy substrate mixes for years and years with no issues’ means NOTHING when it comes recommending the SAFEST substrates to the MASSES. All that matters is we DO see the problems these sandy substrates& soils cause, I’m uncovering more and more and it’s been this way for years. Sure you could argue I’m saying the same thing! how I personally know of many keepers keeping Russians etc on coir no issue, the difference is, I’m taking in the whole picture and not taking the ‘captive vs wild is no different’ route. We can all argue back n forth on the ins and outs of why these substrates considered more ‘natural’, cause problems for some and not for others, the point still stands that more people have problems with these substrates, than those who have had problems with coir or the other recommended indoor substrates. I don’t doubt cases of bark being problematic are out there, and would’ve appreciated if they’d included links to specific instances of cypress being eating and causing damage, because it’s genuinely important to discuss the whole picture.
But no, just a brief mention of hemp being eaten(which we don’t recommend anyway), no back up or documented cases, and I mean CASES, not just a handful of examples. A brief mention how keeping these arid species in damp coir could start causing fungal problems, with some random photos of shell damage, it certainly looked fungal in origin, but there was no context to those photos. I have yet to come across a fungal infection on one of these species being kept on coir. I’ve never seen it cause a respiratory infection, that’s always been down to the enclosure not being heated correctly. You know what I do see hundreds off? Issues with the substrates they’re recommending. “They do not choke to death on small stones. They do not suffer impactions from sand. It does not cause them eye problems. If it did do these things, they'd be long extinct by now! To anticipate yet another common 'objection', that somehow it is 'different' in captivity, no. It is not.” this one felt particularly aimed at one of my common keeping error slides, the bit I added about ‘chocking hazard aside’have I ever seen/heard about a tortoise choking on a stone in captivity? To their credit no, I don’t have a specific example of that, nor have I said you’d need to go around picking each and every small stone from an outdoor enclosure. Have I seen numerous instances of tortoises eating stones in captivity, whatever the reason may be? Enough for me to not to recommend PURPOSEFULLY adding them? Yes, has seeing that worried me enough to mention the mere possibility of a choking hazard? Also yes.
Sand impaction, yes I have seen evidence of that in captivity, and so has Tom firsthand. Eye irritation, also yes.
The wild? No, Which is what they were trying to make a dig at “If it did do these things, they'd be long extinct by now!” Not sh*t Sherlock? We aren’t talking about wild tortoises are we! It IS different in captivity! Captivity isn’t the wild no matter how ‘perfect’ a job you think you’re doing at recreating it!! These things DO matter! Forget the whole “Tortoises have lived successfully for countless millennia on these very substrates and they do very well indeed on them” argument, yep, many have, and guess what, MANY don’t. Know why? Because it’s CAPTIVITY NOT THE WILD. lol sorry for the yelling. We can’t emulate the wild to an absolute T no matter how damn hard we try!!

“For reference, the above ground ambient RH levels of Testudo species in their natural habitat is, on average, 20-30% during activity periods, and typically circa 40-60% when buried in scrapes or burrows. Sustained levels of 80-90% within the substrate are totally unnatural and we have never recorded readings in any habitat we have ever studied that are anything like the levels seen in coir substrates. ” you’re telling us things we already know about these WILD tortoises habitats! Do we know why captive Russians burrowing down into humid coir causes no ill effects? No I guess we don’t fully understand, the same way we don’t know why certain tortoises get impacted and others don’t. And yeah you can still try throwing in the “High ambient humidity at temperatures of 25°C and above dramatically softens the keratin of the scutes and makes them much more vulnerable to trauma damage and especially to fungal shell infections.” Again bud, where’s your cases upon cases of that?? I’ve got cases upon cases of the issues your recommendations cause, where’s his? “Again, this has consequences, one of which is an increased risk of respiratory conditions, in addition to the risk of fungal shell diseases.” Yeah dude you keep saying that, except if it were the case, we’d be seeing a whole lot of sick and rotten tortoises out there would we not? It’s weird cause I’m seeing a lot of cases of tortoises with irritated eyes, being kept on dry substrate and ending up dehydrated and even few impactions, I’d appreciate seeing the masses of posts complaining about the issues our recommend substrates are causing? “Quite simply, arid habitat or 'desert' species are not physiologically equipped to deal with sustained levels of high humidity or moisture at high temperatures.” ambient humidity is different to the humidity recorded in the actual substrate itself. Again I can’t answer why the higher humidity within the substrate doesn’t cause issues in captivity, but if it did, we’d sure as hell be seeing it.
Maybe @Tom will have better answers there.

“They do get wet when it rains, though it is important to note that episodes of rainfall in these habitats can be many weeks, or even months apart, and when it does rain, it dries off very quickly indeed.” Just throwing in some more WILD habitat facts. So for those at the back WILD tortoises aren’t in CAPTIVITY!! Especially if we’re talking indoors! This guy seems to be going ham on substrate recommendations, then goes on to say how he mainly keeps/recommends keeping them outdoors anyway!

I stand by this statement I made back in the sand discussion;
“when using a platform to advise on animal care, you have to cater for the enormous spectrum that is the tortoise keeping community, if you’re going to advise to the broadest range possible, for the sake of as many tortoises well beings as possible, we need to eliminate things that are potential risks in those with less than perfect husbandry.
There’s never going to be a place in time where every single tortoise owner truly understands every aspect of care in preventing the risks that comes with the sandy mixes, it’s never going to be wise to advocate for it in captive care.
We can strive to educate the best possible care from housing, to diet to supplements, the lot, but this world is brutal when it comes to the pet trade, it’s up to well educated and experienced folks, to advise the least risky ways possible to keep a tortoise, for the broadest range of owners when using a platform the entire world has access to. ”

They even added “Note, however, that all of our tortoises were on very high fibre (mostly natural grazing) dietary regimes. If they had been fed on 'wet', soft, low fibre 'supermarket salads' the outcome may well have been different, although as we have seen beyond doubt previously, such diets are also very harmful in other ways too” so they themselves admit there’s other factors at play to consider. Might not even just be diet! We simply don’t know and this author doesn’t either. It’s something that is out of our control with the masses. Eliminating risks where possible when making recommendations with captive care, is KEY.

“Abrasive properties
Essentially, a coir substrate possesses no abrasive properties whatever. It is soft and spongy. Why does this matter? Quite simply because tortoises rely upon the surfaces that they live on and in to perform essential 'maintenance' such as claw trimming and preventing excess keratin layers building up on the carapace. If we look at the claws of a wild tortoise, they are 'automatically' maintained by wear and tear to a suitable length. By comparison, we often hear of captive tortoises requiring regular claw and beak trimming. These are clear indicators that the habitat and environment are incorrect.”

This was a wild statement to make, I don’t think it takes a tortoise expert to understand there’s wayyy more factors to be considered when it comes to overgrown beaks and claws, using coir is NOT the issue there

“Claims that substrates that routinely occur in the natural habitats, and that tortoises routinely live on in nature, sometimes spending their entire lives on (and we really do often encounter visibly 'ancient' tortoises in the wild!) , are 'dangerous' are entirely irrational and bear zero relation to reality, yet they proliferate widely online.” another pretty bold statement to make here my guy, considering the hundreds of posts I’ve got at the ready showing otherwise? and I swear if he relates this to wild tortoises one more time, stoppppp

The only thing I appreciated was the whole ‘different species of lizards need different humidity levels, so do other species of animals’, like yes I get this I understood the incentive behind that argument. But this is why it’s important to look at actual evidence of keeping methods. Certain substrates that work for certain lizards and not others is absolutely true, and that fact is founded with keeping evidence to back it up. Our recommendations are backed up the same way. Why does coir work for a Russian as well as something like a tropical red foot? Set up type, maintenance, moisture added…

All in all this article felt like a really poor, and low attempt at discrediting the forum, and those who have worked tirelessly for decades on perfecting the care advice. They really tried to chuck us in with the same likes of Facebook groups and crappy reptile stores. Rude and completely unfounded.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Their point is that you should focus substrate on your specific species vs just giving blanket advice that this or that substrate isn’t good for captive tortoises. I totally agree with that.

I do agree, I think the same substrates sometimes require different maintenance species to species, but looking at evidence left by hundreds of keepers of what works vs what causes problems is so important. The idea of the same substrate type being recommended across the board clearly doesn’t sit right with people like the authors of this article. In practice, it makes sense when only looking at their wild habitats. But in reality, when looking at captive care, there’s a clear distinction between the problematic substrates vs the safer ones.

An example not mentioned but never really dealt with on the forum is the massive amount of dust that reptibark and other substrates produce when they dry out and are trodden on all day by tortoises. That dust gets in their food, water and on their skin and all over your house. We talk about not wanting our tortoises to ingest their substrate but for anything that produces dust, you are putting that in their system.

Personally we don’t have the dust issue and I think it only really becomes an issue if you haven’t quite got the maintenance down. But granted I understand if using just coir, that can become an issues regardless of maintenance, I don’t see dust amount of coir being ingested on their food becoming an issue. Should pass perfectly fine. Breathing it in is definitely another matter, but is why I try to encourage adding a bark layer

 

[RandyTortoise]

Same here! I’m disappointed there was no mention on ages, that’s definitely something they should have factored in.

And yes exactly! We’ve had fruit flies being an issue in enclosures with lower humidity, I don’t think humidity is the leading factor for those infestations, so that was a bit of a cheap shot.

I feel the same about humidifiers, not worth the risk when there’s simply more efficient ways. At the end of the day, if you need a humidifier to keep humidity up, your enclosure has too much air exchange somewhere, period.

Forgive I’m going to go in here, maybe I need to vent on a new post altogether but

Personally, we aren’t a fan a coir either, it’s not our preferred substrate in terms of ‘messiness’, we have used it, does a fine job when maintained and laid down properly, it’s just not for us. I know of numerous keepers in person who keep their Russian tortoises on coir with zero issues, I know of even more through socials. What I disliked about this article is how vague it was about these ‘potential’ problems the higher humidity coir is when burrowed in, they really tried to hammer home how they “ourselves used various combinations of sand and topsoil substrates for well over 20 years when we were based in the UK, working with Testudo graeca, Testudo ibera, Testudo marginata, Testudo horsfieldii, Testudo hermanni and Testudo kleinmanni. We not only kept large numbers of all these, but we successfully bred them all too. Some photos of the exact setups used are included in the outdoor housing article linked earlier. In all that time, and with many hundreds of tortoises, we never encountered one single incident where such substrates caused any harm at all.”

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, this whole ‘well we used sandy substrate mixes for years and years with no issues’ means NOTHING when it comes recommending the SAFEST substrates to the MASSES. All that matters is we DO see the problems these sandy substrates& soils cause, I’m uncovering more and more and it’s been this way for years. Sure you could argue I’m saying the same thing! how I personally know of many keepers keeping Russians etc on coir no issue, the difference is, I’m taking in the whole picture and not taking the ‘captive vs wild is no different’ route. We can all argue back n forth on the ins and outs of why these substrates considered more ‘natural’, cause problems for some and not for others, the point still stands that more people have problems with these substrates, than those who have had problems with coir or the other recommended indoor substrates. I don’t doubt cases of bark being problematic are out there, and would’ve appreciated if they’d included links to specific instances of cypress being eating and causing damage, because it’s genuinely important to discuss the whole picture.
But no, just a brief mention of hemp being eaten(which we don’t recommend anyway), no back up or documented cases, and I mean CASES, not just a handful of examples. A brief mention how keeping these arid species in damp coir could start causing fungal problems, with some random photos of shell damage, it certainly looked fungal in origin, but there was no context to those photos. I have yet to come across a fungal infection on one of these species being kept on coir. I’ve never seen it cause a respiratory infection, that’s always been down to the enclosure not being heated correctly. You know what I do see hundreds off? Issues with the substrates they’re recommending. “They do not choke to death on small stones. They do not suffer impactions from sand. It does not cause them eye problems. If it did do these things, they'd be long extinct by now! To anticipate yet another common 'objection', that somehow it is 'different' in captivity, no. It is not.” this one felt particularly aimed at one of my common keeping error slides, the bit I added about ‘chocking hazard aside’have I ever seen/heard about a tortoise choking on a stone in captivity? To their credit no, I don’t have a specific example of that, nor have I said you’d need to go around picking each and every small stone from an outdoor enclosure. Have I seen numerous instances of tortoises eating stones in captivity, whatever the reason may be? Enough for me to not to recommend PURPOSEFULLY adding them? Yes, has seeing that worried me enough to mention the mere possibility of a choking hazard? Also yes.
Sand impaction, yes I have seen evidence of that in captivity, and so has Tom firsthand. Eye irritation, also yes.
The wild? No, Which is what they were trying to make a dig at “If it did do these things, they'd be long extinct by now!” Not sh*t Sherlock? We aren’t talking about wild tortoises are we! It IS different in captivity! Captivity isn’t the wild no matter how ‘perfect’ a job you think you’re doing at recreating it!! These things DO matter! Forget the whole “Tortoises have lived successfully for countless millennia on these very substrates and they do very well indeed on them” argument, yep, many have, and guess what, MANY don’t. Know why? Because it’s CAPTIVITY NOT THE WILD. lol sorry for the yelling. We can’t emulate the wild to an absolute T no matter how damn hard we try!!

“For reference, the above ground ambient RH levels of Testudo species in their natural habitat is, on average, 20-30% during activity periods, and typically circa 40-60% when buried in scrapes or burrows. Sustained levels of 80-90% within the substrate are totally unnatural and we have never recorded readings in any habitat we have ever studied that are anything like the levels seen in coir substrates. ” you’re telling us things we already know about these WILD tortoises habitats! Do we know why captive Russians burrowing down into humid coir causes no ill effects? No I guess we don’t fully understand, the same way we don’t know why certain tortoises get impacted and others don’t. And yeah you can still try throwing in the “High ambient humidity at temperatures of 25°C and above dramatically softens the keratin of the scutes and makes them much more vulnerable to trauma damage and especially to fungal shell infections.” Again bud, where’s your cases upon cases of that?? I’ve got cases upon cases of the issues your recommendations cause, where’s his? “Again, this has consequences, one of which is an increased risk of respiratory conditions, in addition to the risk of fungal shell diseases.” Yeah dude you keep saying that, except if it were the case, we’d be seeing a whole lot of sick and rotten tortoises out there would we not? It’s weird cause I’m seeing a lot of cases of tortoises with irritated eyes, being kept on dry substrate and ending up dehydrated and even few impactions, I’d appreciate seeing the masses of posts complaining about the issues our recommend substrates are causing? “Quite simply, arid habitat or 'desert' species are not physiologically equipped to deal with sustained levels of high humidity or moisture at high temperatures.” ambient humidity is different to the humidity recorded in the actual substrate itself. Again I can’t answer why the higher humidity within the substrate doesn’t cause issues in captivity, but if it did, we’d sure as hell be seeing it.
Maybe @Tom will have better answers there.

“They do get wet when it rains, though it is important to note that episodes of rainfall in these habitats can be many weeks, or even months apart, and when it does rain, it dries off very quickly indeed.” Just throwing in some more WILD habitat facts. So for those at the back WILD tortoises aren’t in CAPTIVITY!! Especially if we’re talking indoors! This guy seems to be going ham on substrate recommendations, then goes on to say how he mainly keeps/recommends keeping them outdoors anyway!

I stand by this statement I made back in the sand discussion;
“when using a platform to advise on animal care, you have to cater for the enormous spectrum that is the tortoise keeping community, if you’re going to advise to the broadest range possible, for the sake of as many tortoises well beings as possible, we need to eliminate things that are potential risks in those with less than perfect husbandry.
There’s never going to be a place in time where every single tortoise owner truly understands every aspect of care in preventing the risks that comes with the sandy mixes, it’s never going to be wise to advocate for it in captive care.
We can strive to educate the best possible care from housing, to diet to supplements, the lot, but this world is brutal when it comes to the pet trade, it’s up to well educated and experienced folks, to advise the least risky ways possible to keep a tortoise, for the broadest range of owners when using a platform the entire world has access to. ”

They even added “Note, however, that all of our tortoises were on very high fibre (mostly natural grazing) dietary regimes. If they had been fed on 'wet', soft, low fibre 'supermarket salads' the outcome may well have been different, although as we have seen beyond doubt previously, such diets are also very harmful in other ways too” so they themselves admit there’s other factors at play to consider. Might not even just be diet! We simply don’t know and this author doesn’t either. It’s something that is out of our control with the masses. Eliminating risks where possible when making recommendations with captive care, is KEY.

“Abrasive properties
Essentially, a coir substrate possesses no abrasive properties whatever. It is soft and spongy. Why does this matter? Quite simply because tortoises rely upon the surfaces that they live on and in to perform essential 'maintenance' such as claw trimming and preventing excess keratin layers building up on the carapace. If we look at the claws of a wild tortoise, they are 'automatically' maintained by wear and tear to a suitable length. By comparison, we often hear of captive tortoises requiring regular claw and beak trimming. These are clear indicators that the habitat and environment are incorrect.”

This was a wild statement to make, I don’t think it takes a tortoise expert to understand there’s wayyy more factors to be considered when it comes to overgrown beaks and claws, using coir is NOT the issue there

“Claims that substrates that routinely occur in the natural habitats, and that tortoises routinely live on in nature, sometimes spending their entire lives on (and we really do often encounter visibly 'ancient' tortoises in the wild!) , are 'dangerous' are entirely irrational and bear zero relation to reality, yet they proliferate widely online.” another pretty bold statement to make here my guy, considering the hundreds of posts I’ve got at the ready showing otherwise? and I swear if he relates this to wild tortoises one more time, stoppppp

The only thing I appreciated was the whole ‘different species of lizards need different humidity levels, so do other species of animals’, like yes I get this I understood the incentive behind that argument. But this is why it’s important to look at actual evidence of keeping methods. Certain substrates that work for certain lizards and not others is absolutely true, and that fact is founded with keeping evidence to back it up. Our recommendations are backed up the same way. Why does coir work for a Russian as well as something like a tropical red foot? Set up type, maintenance, moisture added…

All in all this article felt like a really poor, and low attempt at discrediting the forum, and those who have worked tirelessly for decades on perfecting the care advice. They really tried to chuck us in with the same likes of Facebook groups and crappy reptile stores. Rude and completely unfounded.

Everything you pointed out makes complete sense to me. I am convinced! Nice work. Seriously!

 

[RandyTortoise]

I do agree, I think the same substrates sometimes require different maintenance species to species, but looking at evidence left by hundreds of keepers of what works vs what causes problems is so important. The idea of the same substrate type being recommended across the board clearly doesn’t sit right with people like the authors of this article. In practice, it makes sense when only looking at their wild habitats. But in reality, when looking at captive care, there’s a clear distinction between the problematic substrates vs the safer ones.

Personally we don’t have the dust issue and I think it only really becomes an issue if you haven’t quite got the maintenance down. But granted I understand if using just coir, that can become an issues regardless of maintenance, I don’t see dust amount of coir being ingested on their food becoming an issue. Should pass perfectly fine. Breathing it in is definitely another matter, but is why I try to encourage adding a bark layer

Yeah, I stopped using reptibark due to dust. It was really messy and a pain in the ***. But then even with large coco chips even when moist and walked on for awhile it does start to break down. At the end of the day, nothing is perfect.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Everything you pointed out makes complete sense to me. I am convinced! Nice work. Seriously!

Thank you, I appreciate that, I wanted to take my time in addressing it.

Yeah, I stopped using reptibark due to dust. It was really messy and a pain in the ***. But then even with large coco chips even when moist and walked on for awhile it does start to break down. At the end of the day, nothing is perfect.

Ah that’s a shame, we love orchid bark, for us the coir was too dusty on top at times. I hear you with the breaking down though, I wouldn’t say that causes dust for us, but it definitely does cause remnants to get on the dishesI think its unavoidable no matter what’s used indoors, so yes your right, nothing is perfect, some better&safer than others

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

One thing that jumped out to me was them pointing out how dangerous the Coco coir is as one would have to use a respirator when handling it in large amounts and often.

Well, isn't that something that applies to sand too?

I will have to give the Coco coir article a re-read, as the heat transfer argument interests me.

 

[RandyTortoise]

One thing that jumped out to me was them pointing out how dangerous the Coco coir is as one would have to use a respirator when handling it in large amounts and often.

Well, isn't that something that applies to sand too?

I will have to give the Coco coir article a re-read, as the heat transfer argument interests me.

I am not sure where they came to that conclusion. Most warnings on packages are out there for legal reasons and may not be based on any serious risks.

I highly doubt that anything coming from a coconut is harmful.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I am not sure where they came to that conclusion. Most warnings on packages are out there for legal reasons and may not be based on any serious risks.

I highly doubt that anything coming from a coconut is harmful.

I concur about respirators. Especially, when using low-grade coir - it has large amounts of dry dust and minimal air movements result in clouds of this dust everywhere. Then it absorbs moisture from mucous membranes which makes things much worse. It's less an issue inside humid terrariums, of course.

It's also an issue with sand, however, playsand is not very dusty (and particles are less moisture absorbing and heavier).

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I concur about respirators. Especially, when using low-grade coir - it has large amounts of dry dust and minimal air movements result in clouds of this dust everywhere. Then it absorbs moisture from mucous membranes which makes things much worse. It's less an issue inside humid terrariums, of course.

It's also an issue with sand, however, playsand is not very dusty (and particles are less moisture absorbing and heavier).

I can see why coir is better suited for babies being a humid enclosure. For adults I couldn’t get along with it without adding bark on top.
The bit about it absorbing moisture from mucous is a good observation, I could definitely see that. Again, I feel like if it’s good quality and maintained properly, especially adding bark on top, the dust issue can be minimised. Substrate being dusty is going to be an issue no matter what is used, it’s just all about how you maintain it imo

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

It's also an issue with sand, however, playsand is not very dusty (and particles are less moisture absorbing and heavier).

That is what I was thinking, coco coir isn't the only substrate that causes dust problems.