UVB question

[heyprettyrave]

I've heard so many different things but I am pretty sure that red foots need the UVB? correct me if i am worng. but what i currently have is a UVA light that hits most of the terrarium. so should i get a UVB light also?

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i was thinking something like this
http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/E...7czoxOiIwIjtzOjg6IlNlYXJjaF95IjtzOjE6IjAiO30=

what do you guys suggest

 

[DeanS]

Don't think something like that...they're worthless. You'd be better off with a Zoo Med Powersun...100 Watts will do.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Do you intend to tape their feet to the floor to make them stay under the light?.. because they won't! You asked to be corrected... they don't need it! They do need D3.. which they get from what they eat naturally. You can feed them a lot of good stuff with the $$$ you didn't spend on UVB bulbs!

Now if you would like to see the results of no UVB lighting inside I can show you a few '05 hatchlings.. and a proven '98 hatchling that had no UVB inside. Proven indicating there were no ill-effects from no UVB inside 6 months out of the year. They are outside 6 months [ at best ] out of the year.. and I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever seen them "basking" when the temps were high enough so they didn't need to "thermoregulate" their body temps. Even early and late in the season outside [ when the temps were cooler at night ] it didn't take them long to thermoregulate because of their dark colored carapace.. so there was very little exposure to sunlight/UVB outside too!

I would like to see the results of using UVB on hatchlings after say 10 years.. and I'll show you what I did with the 100's of $$$'s I didn't spend on those lights over the years.

Isn't this tell and show?

It sounds like you've already determined pretty..what you believe. It's your money and your redfoots that you will stress because they will have limited space to move around in because of all of the light in the enclosure. Don't be surprised when they don't want to come out of their hide.

NERD

 

[terryo]

I only have two Cherry Head's, and virtually no experience to speak of,so I am in no way contradicting you NERD, as you have WAY more experience than I do, of course.

From my experience with box turtles, which seem to need the same basic care as RF's, they spend a lot of time under a shrub or tree, getting filtered sunlight, when it isn't too hot, so a little "sun" when they are inside can't hurt. I've always used a long tube 5.0 UVB on one side of the vivarium, when they are inside for the Winter. In fact, it's like the one you posted. My oldest CH, who is 4 years old, will spend a lot of time sitting in the water in the sun, or wondering around eating anything she can find, when she's outside. From watching her, she seems to love the sun, and will find the last bit of sun to sit in before it goes down. The little one, who is 1 yr. will spend less time wandering around, and more time in her hide, when outside.
No matter what we feed them, we still don't know if they are getting the total nutrition they need, so a little dose of "sun" won't do any harm, and in fact might be helpful. I have come to the conclusion, after only four years having RF's, and hearing so many different opinions, that no one really knows for positively sure what they need. So we just have to do what we think is right, by observing our own torts.

 

[cdmay]

This is an old debate on this forum but I guess it doesn't hurt to bring it up now and again.
The fact is that both young and old redfoot tortoises (as well as yellowfoots, although to a lesser degree) do seek out direct and indirect sunlight when they have the opportunity. In NERD's case he states that his don't bask-- at least not that often-- and I take him at his word on that. But, even if his tortoises are not actively basking while outdoors they are still getting the various light rays from the sun. Even in a sun/shade mosaic (for example, under a bush) beneficial light rays penetrate and the tortoise does indeed get them. In addition, he mentions that his tortoises are kept outdoors for up to six months out of the year and even if they aren't basking much, they are surely getting at least a little of the UVA/UVB light rays from the sun as they move about his enclosures. This exposure adds up and thus to be honest, although he may not mean to, NERD does indeed provide UVB/UVA lighting for his animals, if only for half the year. And that is a lot more than never.
However, NERD's caution against keeping a young tortoise in an indoor enclosure with blinding light is good advice. He is absolutely right in that your animal will almost never want to leave its hide. Also, the spending of big bucks for specialized lighting is probably a waste of money as it has been demonstrated that these lights lose their strength very quickly anyway.
So what do you do? I think TerryO has the best idea for indoor tortoise culture---provide some good (but not outrageous) lighting AT ONE END of the terrarium while keeping the rest of the enclosure in subdued light.
As regards outdoor basking in direct sunlight I can only give you my personal experience... and that is that even now, when it is getting into the 90's down here, my yearling and younger redfoots pile up on top of each other to get at the sun. They do this even though their enclosure is located under a large palm tree that allows for that sun/shade mosaic I mentioned for most of the day. No, they are not basking all day in the heat like a red-eared slider in a lake, but they are clearly looking for sunlight.
One last bit about redfoots basking. There have now been many, many observations of these animals recorded in their natural habitat from Colombia to Paraguay. Nearly every one includes sightings of them actively basking or 'sunning'. Where they are found in more dense areas, these animals are almost always found in patches of sunlight.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

It is amazing the difference in the .carbonaria North of the Amazon [ speaking very generally ] and South of the Amazon!

HALF of the outdoor enclosure where the Northerns are is dense with Rose of Sharon shrubs ( pics ASAP ) and a thick grass of some sort that they don't eat.. so they are getting exactly what they need to keep them happy. At any given time there is total sun and/or "total/dappled" shade... that's for the Northerns!

TerryO and Carl have the .carbonaria - which ( I TOTALLY AGREE WITH ) have demonstrated very different lifestyles and characteristics! Their side of the enclosure ( even tho' tilled and planted with the same grasses, etc. as the other half before the retaining wall seperating them was installed ) is almost a different environment --- for different tortoises. And yes the "Brazilians/Cherryheads" are much more visible and seen out and about in the direct sun.. much more often than the Northerns. The Brazilian/Cherryhead side does have fewer Rose of Sharon and grasses growing in it - by design or chance? - I'm now thinking both.

Until recently I have kept a greater number of Northerns than the Brazilians. Now that I have more and older Brazilians/Cherryheads I'm seeing distinct differences in their "basking" preferences.

BOTH OF THE HATCHLING "LOCALES" WILL EAT IN THE LIGHT/SUN AND THEN IMMEDIATELY HEAD FOR DIRECT SHADE.

As far as diet is concerned .. I believe we do fine - probly better than what they get in the wild actually.

Once again.. each and every DIFFERENT locale of tortoise is showing DIFFERENT needs.

All things in moderation and give them a choice and they will let us know what they want and need. There you have it 'pretty'.

 

[Madkins007]

UVB has been widely demonstrated to have beneficial effects on a wide variety of animals, young and old. Not only does it help with vitamin D3 production, it also helps the eyes develop properly, helps stimulate deep brain glands, and so on. [Interesting article at http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/ultraviolet-light-life-lindsay-hazley.pdf] HOWEVER- this does not mean that excessive UVB is good for you!

Reptiles need between 200-2,000 International Units (IUs) of D3 per kilogram of weight per day. [source: Dr. Douglas Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery'] A baby Red-foot at about 65 grams would need about 13 to 130 IUs a day. The most common wild food a Red-foot would find that has naturally occurring D in it would be wild mushrooms, which would have 14IUs in 100 grams- so the tortoise would need to eat its own body weight plus an extra 30 some grams daily to get the D that way. [Source: Wikipedia article on vitamin D]

'But they eat meat in the wild!' This is a common claim. Red meat itself does not carry a lot of vitamin D- liver meat is better, and it only contains 15IU per 100 grams of food- not a lot better than mushrooms. Fish does a lot better- catfish and sardines provide a whopping 5IU per gram of food... but Red-foots rarely eat fish in the wild.

Some people claim that get adequate D from things like cat food, Mazuri, and fortified calcium supplements. Cat food rarely lists the vitamin D level. Mazuri only has 3IU/gram of food, which would be enough if you offer about 5 grams to our earlier mentioned baby Red-foot. Fortified calcium supplements error on the very safe side so rarely have much D in them.

Some people claim that they have never used UVB or supplemental vitamin D and gotten 'great results'. This is a pretty subjective claim. To KNOW that they got great results, they would need to raise tortoises with and without UVB and monitor the differences over their reproductive lives. Various authors and researchers have suggested that adequate doses of UVB/D3 help with proper bone development and reduced pyramiding (without the need for frequent misting), better clutch sizes and hatching rates, and so forth.

There is no question that Red-foots can be raised without good UVB. The question is- is that the BEST way to care for them?

My recommendation is to offer as natural sun when possible (while making sure they have shade and hide at all times). If they cannot get good sunlight every day or so, offer them some decent UVB light indoors, again, making sure they have shade and hides available. If you are only offering low levels of UVB light, or choose to not offer UVB light, to make sure to offer adequate D in the diet somehow- even though most research suggests it is not as helpful as UVB light is.



Having said all that, UVA does have SOME benefits. Part of the tortoise eye sees in the UV range, and there have been plenty of anecdotal reports that reptiles exposed to UVA behave more naturally. However, all UVB bulbs also produce UVA, so are generally a better option.

 

[terryo]

"Some people claim that they have never used UVB or supplemental vitamin D and gotten 'great results'. This is a pretty subjective claim. To KNOW that they got great results, they would need to raise tortoises with and without UVB and monitor the differences over their reproductive lives. "

So Mark, you are saying that if a person raised a RF from hatchling to adult, and that RF has bred and produced it's own hatchlings, and never had a health problem, all without UVB when inside, and only about 6 months of outdoor sun, and also had smooth growth........then why would they need to raise them WITH UVB to know if they got great results? To some this would mean "great results". Just asking....as I've said I don't know much about this subjuect.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

"Some people claim that they have never used UVB or supplemental vitamin D and gotten 'great results'. This is a pretty subjective claim. To KNOW that they got great results, they would need to raise tortoises with and without UVB and monitor the differences over their reproductive lives. "

So Mark, you are saying that if a person raised a RF from hatchling to adult, and that RF has bred and produced it's own hatchlings, and never had a health problem, all without UVB when inside, and only about 6 months of outdoor sun, and also had smooth growth........then why would they need to raise them WITH UVB to know if they got great results? To some this would mean "great results". Just asking....as I've said I don't know much about this subjuect.

Way to go TerryO.. GREAT question! -

`

 

[cdmay]

"So Mark, you are saying that if a person raised a RF from hatchling to adult, and that RF has bred and produced it's own hatchlings, and never had a health problem, all without UVB when inside, and only about 6 months of outdoor sun, and also had smooth growth........then why would they need to raise them WITH UVB to know if they got great results? To some this would mean "great results". Just asking....as I've said I don't know much about this subjuect.

TerryO, I think you are missing some vital facts here...
First, NERD's animals ARE getting UVB. Even if 'only' 6 months of the year-- which can be translated to half of the time BTW. That is certainly a significant amount, right? Also, don't forget that most artificial indoor lighting contains at least some UVB. So the part of your question, " ...then why would they need to raise them WITH UVB?" is simply not based on all the facts. You are leaving out a big part of the equation.
Second, smooth growth in itself only means that the growth has been slow, or the diet is balanced, or the humidity is sufficient, or all three. It does not prove that the animal is healthy in all other respects, or that it will live a long time. I've seen captive raised redfoots that had wonderfully smooth growth but were also highly anemic, pale and sickly which would indicate a lack of proper lighting. Frankly there is much more to raising tortoises than saying, "Hey look, what a smooth shell. Must be great results!"
A smooth shell is great but is everything else OK?

 

[Madkins007]

"Some people claim that they have never used UVB or supplemental vitamin D and gotten 'great results'. This is a pretty subjective claim. To KNOW that they got great results, they would need to raise tortoises with and without UVB and monitor the differences over their reproductive lives. "

So Mark, you are saying that if a person raised a RF from hatchling to adult, and that RF has bred and produced it's own hatchlings, and never had a health problem, all without UVB when inside, and only about 6 months of outdoor sun, and also had smooth growth........then why would they need to raise them WITH UVB to know if they got great results? To some this would mean "great results". Just asking....as I've said I don't know much about this subjuect.

Exactly. Without good side by side comparisons, how do you KNOW that someone gets good results? What are you comparing the results to?

Smooth growth? Some accomplish this with lots of misting- which does not happen to tortoises naturally. Would they need to do this if they offered proper UVB or vitamin D? A comparison would show that.

No health problems? We don't know that either. There are literally hundreds of health problems that do not appear to the naked eye. Tortoises raised side by side could be compared for growth, color, weight, behaviors, etc.

Breeding? Red-foots are not a particularly hard species to breed- poorly kept Red-foots breed all over the place. A side by side comparison would allow us to see if both groups get the same numbers of successful eggs.



The question remains what is the BEST way to do this? Sadly, there is very, very little hard research and a lot of anecdotal stuff. Do babies really need much D3 or do they get it from the yolk sac? How long can they go on the D in the fat stores before they need to replenish it?

 

[terryo]

OK Mark.........go for it! I'm sure everyone would love to see the results. I know I would.

 

[heyprettyrave]

well thanks everyone, i try to get my girls out as often as I possibly can.. so i guess i will follow the advice and not invest in a uvb bulb

 

[Madkins007]

Pretty Rave- great! I love to hear that the torts can get outside! Here in Omaha, we've still only had a few good outside days.

TerryO- I'd love to do a study like that, but right now I can only keep about 5 adults safe and healthy in the winter with the resources I have. I also can in no way afford to buy or care for the numbers it would take to do it right.

I had a raging fever yesterday when I replied, and missed making a point about the benefits of studies like this. In the wellness world, there are lots, of people who are 95 or older, smoked and drank every day, never ate right, never exercised. Can we use that person's example as a guiding principle? Should we, therefore, smoke, drink, eat junk, etc. because it worked for them? They reproduced and have lived a long time, so it works, right?

The thing is that we know, thanks to research, that MOST people do not do well on a program like this. Heck, we do not even know how this person would have turned out had they not smoked, etc. That same person could easily have been bigger, healthier, richer, and longer-lived had they lived what most of us would consider a smarter life.

It is not a perfect analogy, but the rule of thumb remains- the experiences and results from testing and research on a large scale are much more useful than the results of one person, pretty much in every situation in the world.

 

[Hustler]

Madkins...... That is an amazing analogy
Im a welder up here in alberta so by rights i live pretty hard in your scenario lol And ive seen guys in my trade pass with heart attacks and cancer that didnt partake much if any..... and in the same token old welders in there 80's that shake real bad till they have a drink before work.... It worked for them in the 50's and they are still playing in thier shop today.... Just crazy....
I think with supplied vitamins D3.... or lights.... it should end up with the same results or too close to tell.... they are very tough torts and it takes some serious neglect and not following any of the care sheets on here to end up with a negitive result thats visible to the eye, and some of it is also genetics.... I think this will be a debate that stands up to time.
I do both to be on the safe side and dont over do it either way and so far so good.
Thats my 2 bits anyways

 

[terryo]

I've always used a 5.0 on any boxies that had to stay in for the winter and also for both my Cherries. Summer....YAYYYY!

 

[heyprettyrave]

i can only get my girls out a few days a week, so would not getting any sunlight the rest of the time affect them in a harmful way?

 

[Madkins007]

Not really- they store excess D in their fatty tissues for times they don't get any.

 

[heyprettyrave]

okay thats great, thank you! im just trying to make sure i can give them the best