Vivariums for Tortoises

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,449
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Madkins007 said:
OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. Only the last item affects the tortoise. Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?

The plastic tub usually has lower sides, a bigger floor space.
 

alfiethetortoise

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
329
Location (City and/or State)
England
I feel the need to add that i actually love my vivarium, and if used correctly, they can be a great habitat for a tortoise. Ok so here are my reasons:

(1) Alfie is around 90mm in length. The Vivarium she is in is 2.5 feet long, so in my oppinnion she has plenty of room to roam around, and i get her out every couple of days for a run around the living room
(2) I get a little paranoid about the temps in my vivarium and by watching closely i can maintain temperatures very well (i.e warmer in winter colder in summer)
(3) Despite many people sayint you can't get a heat gradient i would dissagree - i manage to maintain a 70-80 'cooler' end and a 85 plus area for basking.
(4) They require very little maintience - i check for poo and moisten the soil/sand on a regular basis but i only completely empty about once a month and i'd say even then its pretty clean and could be done less frequently.
(5) I have a lock for my vivarium which keeps little fingers (toddlers) out. But as its all glass on on a small coffee table, she can easily see in.
(6) I find that if i haven't bathed Alfie, or she hasn't been out of the viv in a day or so she will actually come to the front of the glass for a 'look' to see what's going on so it's more interactive
(7) On the 'ventilation' argument - my vivarium has ventilation accross the back, about three inches of holes which i can attatch my UVBstrip. I open the glass doors most evenings to allow some air in, and whenever i open the air seems fresh but a little more moist.
(8) They look GOOD! Ok, maybe that's vain, but my Vivarium fits well in the living room and doesn't make my house look like a pet shop!

For all those table top enthuisasts, good for you if that works. If you have read up and know what your doing with your tortoise, a vivarium can be a great asset, but if you aquire a tortoise with no real knowledge and place it in a vivarium with similar lack of knowledge then i can only assume you and your tortoise would easily run into difficulty...
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
I very successfully keep tortoises in 'shoe boxes'. No temperature gradient or 'proper' ventilation.

How much ventilation do you think a tortoise gets in a burrow or burried beneath the leaf litter?

Too much ventilation is not always a good thing. Some of my tortoises are outdoors... tonight it is supposed to hit 22F... do I really want 'proper' ventilation???????

What's the difference? You can obtain the same conditions in an aquarium as you can in a closed viv. In some cases... better ventilation.

You did it again... what is 'suitable'?

tortoisenerd said:
I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,975
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
Madkins007 Wrote: OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. Only the last item affects the tortoise. Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?

I know a few people who do not cover the sides and front of their viv's because they want their tortoise to be a pet and to interact with them. Also I know breeders of boxies who don't cover any part of the "tank".

A quote fromTom from TurtleTails:
"A specimen turtle is an animal in a cage on a shelf in a storage room somewhere. A pet turtle is a turtle you live with. A pet turtle you live with has a much more interesting and enjoyable environment. Watching you is part of their entertainment."
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
Have you ever kept a tortoise in a viv/aquarium????? If they are hatchlings they learn the boundries quickly for the most part... there are some stupid individuals that just don't seem to get it but they (in my experience) are a small minority.

Once they learn the boundries they seem to be entertained by the action that goes on outside the 'tank/viv'

I can't imagine the 'thought' process but there is an obvious interest and I've heard the story time and again coupled with my own experience.

Boxies are at the top of the list for the inquisitive.

terryo said:
Madkins007 Wrote: OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. Only the last item affects the tortoise. Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?

I know a few people who do not cover the sides and front of their viv's because they want their tortoise to be a pet and to interact with them. Also I know breeders of boxies who don't cover any part of the "tank".

A quote fromTom from TurtleTails:
"A specimen turtle is an animal in a cage on a shelf in a storage room somewhere. A pet turtle is a turtle you live with. A pet turtle you live with has a much more interesting and enjoyable environment. Watching you is part of their entertainment."
 

Madkins007

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
5,393
Location (City and/or State)
Nebraska
The bits about the torts watching you reminded me of an OLD article in the International Turtle and Tortoise Society Journal about a woman who kept lots of torts and carefully noted observations.

One interesting one was that her torts did better when kept in aquaria at eye level then they did in aquaria at lower levels. Her theory was that having giants hover over them was stressful. That makes a lot of sense to me, and I can see how torts that don't stress over the glass would appreciate it.
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
I'm gonna cry... some of the best/objective observations I've heard/read... are from people who 'don't have a clue

Madkins007 said:
The bits about the torts watching you reminded me of an OLD article in the International Turtle and Tortoise Society Journal about a woman who kept lots of torts and carefully noted observations.

One interesting one was that her torts did better when kept in aquaria at eye level then they did in aquaria at lower levels. Her theory was that having giants hover over them was stressful. That makes a lot of sense to me, and I can see how torts that don't stress over the glass would appreciate it.
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
ugh... i didn't bring up suitable.

Again... I raise turtles/tortoises in shoe boxes.

Stephanie Logan said:
-EJ said:
.

You did it again... what is 'suitable'?

.

According to the dictionary, "suitable: appropriate, fitting, becoming..."
[/quote]
 

Stephanie Logan

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
3,415
Location (City and/or State)
Colorado
-EJ said:
there are some stupid individuals that just don't seem to get it but they (in my experience) are a small minority.
[/quote]

Thank goodness! That is happy news indeed.

-EJ said:
Again... I raise turtles/tortoises in shoe boxes.

Yes! But only suitable shoeboxes, I am sure.
 

tortoisenerd

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
3,957
Location (City and/or State)
Washington
When I think aquarium I think very high sides and no ventilation. Vivarium makes me think that it is better equipped for a tortoise--more floor space than vertical height and it likely has the sides blocked off and has plants. Yvonne got what I was trying to say. I mean it is more difficult to set up as in you need to make sure you have proper ventilation, unlike a plastic tub. It may also take more tweaking to get a good temperature gradient unless it is a huge vivarium. You may need to block off the glass sides if it bothers the tort. I don't mean that daily it will take more work, only initially, especially when choosing the proper enclosure (likely the "long" aquarium not the typical one). Some people never put that initial work/thought into it. I think I'd only chose an aquarium for a high humidity tortoise/turtle. Otherwise, the plastic tub or tortoise table is easier and likely cheaper. I don't have anything against them though as long as they are set up well.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,975
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
What is the difference? An aquarium has water in it.....a vivarium has plants in it? They are still all glass tanks. It's how you set them up. Rignt? If you get a big plastic tub ....or.....a big glass tank....and put plants in both of them and put a screen top on them.....what is the difference to your tort? A table top is something very different. Just my HO.
 

chairman

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
460
Location (City and/or State)
Mississippi
I think some of the confusion in our discussion is because there are a ton of plastic bins on the market that are essentially aquariums. Some of them are even "clear" enough for torts to see through. It is entirely possible to choose a bin that is just as "evil" as an aquarium. You just have to pay attention and use a little common sense.

I do agree that tables are among the cheapest/easiest way to go- I think you probably get more floor space for your buck than with any other indoor enclosure type. Even the large plastic bins usually cost more than a 4x8 sheet of plywood unless there's a sale or coupon involved. Especially since most home improvement stores will make all the cuts you need on the sheet gratis, so there's no need to own a saw specifically for the project.

I still prefer vivs though, as I think my torts and I both appreciate the interaction... even if it is only because they are better able to get the attention of the 'food god'. I'm not going to say that vivs are a universal best solution, but they're not automatically bad.
 

tortoisenerd

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
3,957
Location (City and/or State)
Washington
I don't think any plastic tub could ever be as "evil" as the aquarium due to the glass. A glass tank cannot be placed next to a window as it will cook the animal. A glass tub with the same dimensions as a plastic tub will have more difficulty maintaining a temperature gradient (not an issue for a redfoot for example). Not trying to argue, just adding a point to the discussion.
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
I'm guessing that you've never used an all glass enclosure. With a little thought they are actually easier to maintain humidity and a good temperature gradient.



tortoisenerd said:
I don't think any plastic tub could ever be as "evil" as the aquarium due to the glass. A glass tank cannot be placed next to a window as it will cook the animal. A glass tub with the same dimensions as a plastic tub will have more difficulty maintaining a temperature gradient (not an issue for a redfoot for example). Not trying to argue, just adding a point to the discussion.
 

Madkins007

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
5,393
Location (City and/or State)
Nebraska
Wow! This many pages debating the pros and cons of a plastic or wood box compared to a glass box.

What if we said something like:

"Glass vivaria/aquaria can be a suitable habitat for tortoises as long as it has adequate space, and the proper environment (heat, humidity, etc.) can be maintained for that species. This also applies to plastic tubs, tortoise tables, and other habitats."

Would that be adequate?
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
It would be adequate but some people of a particular mindset still would not buy into it.

Madkins007 said:
Wow! This many pages debating the pros and cons of a plastic or wood box compared to a glass box.

What if we said something like:

"Glass vivaria/aquaria can be a suitable habitat for tortoises as long as it has adequate space, and the proper environment (heat, humidity, etc.) can be maintained for that species. This also applies to plastic tubs, tortoise tables, and other habitats."

Would that be adequate?
 

chairman

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
460
Location (City and/or State)
Mississippi
If we didn't spend pages discussing different ways to keep healthy torts then all we'd read about here is sick torts, and that wouldn't be any fun at all. And I know that, for myself, one of the reasons I joined up here was to interact with folks who realize that scaly critters can make quality companions too.

Besides, I like to see the pros and cons to various approaches. If I know WHY glass is bad then I have a good foundation for making future decisions that may not involve glass, but could hinge on similar properties. For example, if glass can't be left in the sun because of its heat trapping abilities, is placing a tort table with a black pond liner or black bin near a window also going to cause a heat trapping problem? Maybe it isn't possible, but I would think that you could cook a tort in a bin too.

I think the more important theme is not to place indoor enclosures near windows? The sunlight would provide inconsistant heating during the summer months and would provide inconsistent cooling during winter. Please someone let me know if my thinking here is wrong... but I would think that indirect sunlight is almost always the best approach for an indoor setup. If other setups can go in windows then given how beneficial real sunlight can be for some species, it is a legitimate strike against vivs.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,975
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
I have Pio's vivarium in the living room. It isn't near a window, but where it is, gets morning sum for about 2 hours. He's in a 75 gal. planted, glass tank. During those two hours ....that's when I mist the plants and have no light on until the sun moves and then I put it on. The heat emitter is always on. It's also when I feed him. For those two hrs. it looks like a steamy green house in there and Pio can be seen sitting with his neck up....basking? I know there is no benefit from that sun, but he really loves it. To be honest, I never checked the temp. to see if it goes up. The humidity level is way up in the tropical section. If it was a smaller tank, I would turn off the heat emitters.
 

Madkins007

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
5,393
Location (City and/or State)
Nebraska
chairman said:
If we didn't spend pages discussing different ways to keep healthy torts then all we'd read about here is sick torts, and that wouldn't be any fun at all. And I know that, for myself, one of the reasons I joined up here was to interact with folks who realize that scaly critters can make quality companions too.

Hey, I'm ALL FOR a good debate. Hang around a bit longer and you'll see that :)

What gets me is that we seem to be spinning our wheels rather than advancing the debate.

Right now, I am sitting at work (slow day- heavy snow outside) surrounded by plastic tubs of all sizes. Most of them would be TERRIBLE tortoise tubs- terrible size to floor ratios, smelly plastics, dark interiors, etc. To make a blanket statement that 'any plastic tub is better than any glass tank'* is absolutely foolish because there are so many options.

(*= not that anyone said this as such, but it seems to have been hinted at sometimes.)

Here is a question: If I made a glass tank (aquarium or vivarium or whatever) that had a huge floor space, suitable in size and ratios for tortoises, bottom-hiding turtles, shallow-water fish and invertebates, etc. and used a nice material to block direct sunlight and block sightlines- would it still be objectionable?

I propose that if you find that tank to be 'OK', then your objections are not to glass tanks, but to SMALL habitats- which I think we would all agree should be avoided.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top