WC vs CB

[smarch]

I put this here since although i'm not directly starting this as a debate, I know it will be one, and that's ok. I'm just curious as to peoples opinions.

I know, despite this forum being a world of knowledge for buying tortoises and finding breeders rather than chain stores, but I know there's many people out here who found this site after buying a tortoise from a chain store. I am one of those people.

I got my Franklin from my local Petco a little over 2 years ago, about a month later I found this site. Initially I thought I made a mistake and was worried that that meant there was something wrong with Franklin and that people here would criticize me for getting him from Petco. But I've found that people here are pretty understanding of that, and after Franklin opened up and got over his shyness I could not be happier that he's mine, wild caught or not.

So I already know the benefits of CB over WC, but you're free to tell your stories (how you found your breeder, did you have them shipped ect.). My real purpose is to get all us with tortoises who came from a chain store or are otherwise WC to share how you ended up getting your tortoise from there, how they opened up to you and being a pet all of a sudden, how they are now (still shy, personable?), health problems or healthy, and would you do it again?

I'll answer too: I ended up getting franklin from petco since there were really no local stores or breeders around here in my research, I never even considered people shipping, at the time I didn't even know they did that. Initially franklin was very shy, any time I'd pick him up to explore outside he'd instantly pee, he actually opened up and bonded to me quite quickly where in a month or so I could carry him across our decently large yard without any accidents and he'd sit on my chest and sleep on the occasions I had him out. Now if I didn't tell you franklin was WC you'd probably never guess, the only thing is that he never was introduced to cuttlebones as a hatchling therefore I keep them in his food dish but he has no idea what he's supposed to do with it, also he does not like his head touched which I think is a combo of being WC and just his personal preference (we compromise and I pet his shell and he doesn't seem to care one way or another). I was very lucky with his health, he came completely healthy, after finding this forum and learning about all the parasites they can have, I kept a close eye, only went to the vet the first time this spring because he stopped eating (apparently there's an actual thing where they can get kind of a "post hibernation depression" even though he never hibernated, kinda like seasonal depression for us, so he got a fluid shot and stool sample never came back with anything so that was the definitive confirmation that he was healthy. I wouldn't get a WC tort from a chain store again, but my future plans are to rescue any more I get and if they're WC so be it, it doesn't make them damaged or anything, they just may be a little more shy.

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

I bought my tort at petco too, and I thought that exactly. I read that could be very sick but he didn't even have any parasites. He is so adorable, and has such a bold personality, I wouldn't ever choose a CB over my little WC buddy!

 

[Saleama]

I got three through rescues from craigslist, one from a reptile show last weekend and one from petsmart (who was stolen a month later) and not once did I ever think I would get blasted here. There are three beautiful little females at the Petco I go to to buy my crickets. I want them so bad it hurts but I am trying not to give them that business as long as I am able to rescue. There may come a time when I decide these three ladies need rescuing from their cage in the store and I will not hesitate to do so. Right now they seem to be doing well but they have only been there for 2 months. Much longer and I will swoop in.

 

[smarch]

I got three through rescues from craigslist, one from a reptile show last weekend and one from petsmart (who was stolen a month later) and not once did I ever think I would get blasted here. There are three beautiful little females at the Petco I go to to buy my crickets. I want them so bad it hurts but I am trying not to give them that business as long as I am able to rescue. There may come a time when I decide these three ladies need rescuing from their cage in the store and I will not hesitate to do so. Right now they seem to be doing well but they have only been there for 2 months. Much longer and I will swoop in.

Reasons why everytime I go to petco I try to avoid checking in on the torts, because I don't have the space or money for more, but would love to just scoop them all up, and at the same time don't want more money to go to petco over it, sure the trade will still go on because others will buy but its a personal belief right now. My future guys will be from craigslist at the least, I know we have turtle rescue organizations and that's where i'll get my turtles from, but they don't usually get tortoises, although when the time comes to start hunting for a sulcata I will be hitting up all the rescues around as well as wildlife preserves. As cute as hatchlings can be I'd want a rescue any day first. Theyre inspirational, they could have been through the crappiest situations in the world, but they come out and move on with new personality because of that!

Sounds like your petco also has decent care for their torts? I hear all these horror stories but mine's actually not all that bad, despite the messed up diet theyre always kept in a clean tank and not super packed in, that goes for all the reptiles my local store has.. they have to have someone there who actually cares... actually when looking into torts I went and asked to hold ond and this very helpful older man worker told me all about his female Russian, everything he said about care (minus the 40gal tank) matched up perfectly in care, so maybe he takes care of them well!

 

[lisa127]

I don't have tortoises, I have box turtles. Both of my boxies were adopted as babies/juvies from a wildlife rescue and rehab. The one is definitely captive bred as she was born from captive parents that were wild caught many years ago. The other I'm not sure. She was turned into rescue as a 2 inch baby by someone who claims to have found her. Her shell was painted purple and cream colored. I'm assuming she was probably captive bred as well.

 

[Saleama]

Reasons why everytime I go to petco I try to avoid checking in on the torts, because I don't have the space or money for more, but would love to just scoop them all up, and at the same time don't want more money to go to petco over it, sure the trade will still go on because others will buy but its a personal belief right now. My future guys will be from craigslist at the least, I know we have turtle rescue organizations and that's where i'll get my turtles from, but they don't usually get tortoises, although when the time comes to start hunting for a sulcata I will be hitting up all the rescues around as well as wildlife preserves. As cute as hatchlings can be I'd want a rescue any day first. Theyre inspirational, they could have been through the crappiest situations in the world, but they come out and move on with new personality because of that!

Sounds like your petco also has decent care for their torts? I hear all these horror stories but mine's actually not all that bad, despite the messed up diet theyre always kept in a clean tank and not super packed in, that goes for all the reptiles my local store has.. they have to have someone there who actually cares... actually when looking into torts I went and asked to hold ond and this very helpful older man worker told me all about his female Russian, everything he said about care (minus the 40gal tank) matched up perfectly in care, so maybe he takes care of them well!

I am fortunate that all of the petsmart/petco locations near me are willing to listen and they have employees that care for the animals. All of them have changed the way they care for and feed the animals. They still put the fruity pebble food in there because corporate tells them they have to, but they also put in fresh spring mix on top. All of the animals look to be in good condition if a little cramped.
My problem is that they sell to anyone regardless and there are some folks out there with books written decades past that are terrible. The only good thing about this is those torts sometimes wind up on craigslist and if you are good enough, you can rescue it for a good price. I talked someone down from $100 to free when I showed her the garden and explained to her how the tort would be living if she came with me. Of course, for every one of those there is the person who thinks they should make a profit. Not sure how they arrive at this logic. I saw one that said "I paid $140.00 for it and have fed it for a few years so I am asking $200 no exceptions" As if I can't go right to PetCo and get one for $140 just lioke they did?

 

[smarch]

I am fortunate that all of the petsmart/petco locations near me are willing to listen and they have employees that care for the animals. All of them have changed the way they care for and feed the animals. They still put the fruity pebble food in there because corporate tells them they have to, but they also put in fresh spring mix on top. All of the animals look to be in good condition if a little cramped.
My problem is that they sell to anyone regardless and there are some folks out there with books written decades past that are terrible. The only good thing about this is those torts sometimes wind up on craigslist and if you are good enough, you can rescue it for a good price. I talked someone down from $100 to free when I showed her the garden and explained to her how the tort would be living if she came with me. Of course, for every one of those there is the person who thinks they should make a profit. Not sure how they arrive at this logic. I saw one that said "I paid $140.00 for it and have fed it for a few years so I am asking $200 no exceptions" As if I can't go right to PetCo and get one for $140 just lioke they did?

That's very good! And yeah I wish they at least found out you know basics before adopting out reptiles, since without UV you're in trouble and what if they did like no research and I mean reptiles aren't easy to care for- I mean they are once you get the hang of it but not when you're brand new, which is the case for many of the petco people. I have heard many knowledgeable workers that say things showing they know whats up, like I heard one worker telling a guy ready to buy a snake that he needed to get a container for feeding so when you reach in the tank they don't think its food and bite you, which I later read is very good advice... now that I think about it it may have been the same man who knew about my tortoise! They were also able to accurately sex Franklin when selecting him (I wanted a male no exception because I didn't want the added complications of eggs) the worker helping me picked up a few, finally picked up my little guy and then went to go double check with another worker, and of course I also know what I was looking for too! (hmm I also think that other worker man explained sexing when I was holding the tortoise my first visit, as well as the info online... jeeze its a good thing they have him!)

I never plan to sell franklin... ever. but if I were on craigslist I'd ask proof on where you'd keep him, ask some care questions just to make sure, and still ask a small price just so I know you're serious. But i'd never go on cragslist, i'd come here anyways and send him to a nice tortoise farm with all the babes ... but like said i'd never be on the selling end. But on the buying end, whether the person cares or not I'd let them know how prepared I am to care for them and that I know what i'm doing. So somewhere down the line if they do care they'll still know he's in a good place. I feel the people asking so much money assume their time deserves to be paid for, but honestly, no offense to them, but I don't care how long you had them or how much it cost to care for them, don't try to recoup those losses from my pocket.

 

[lisa127]

I used to think I'd never be on the selling end too.

 

[Saleama]

There is another reason I buy from petsmart or petco sometimes. There are just not that many CB russian torts out there so wild caught is common. I am trying to establish a good Creep so I can one day breed Russian torts. If I find a nice, adult female, I struggle to NOT buy her, lol. I know if I do though, and she turns out to be a good breeder, maybe I can have a small impact on the WC trade. The longest journy starts with the first small step right?

 

[FLINTUS]

There is another reason I buy from petsmart or petco sometimes. There are just not that many CB russian torts out there so wild caught is common.

Sorry, I understand reasons to buy WC, but Russians are bred very frequently in captivity. Look around and you'll find some, I guarantee.

 

[Saleama]

Sorry, I understand reasons to buy WC, but Russians are bred very frequently in captivity. Look around and you'll find some, I guarantee.

Females are extremely hard to find. I don't need a bunch of males. For awhile it was hard to find females even at pet stores. Now it seems every petco and petsmart in my area has nothing but. I also need adults, not babies or juveniles and adult captive bred female russians are VERY uncommon. You are in the UK I see. I am in the US. Completly different situation we have over here.

 

[smarch]

Sorry, I understand reasons to buy WC, but Russians are bred very frequently in captivity. Look around and you'll find some, I guarantee.

I feel its a common thing to think of them as more WC than CB since they're the ones usually in pet stores, them and greeks are the 2 I've seen, and the occasional redfoot.

Females are extremely hard to find. I don't need a bunch of males. For awhile it was hard to find females even at pet stores. Now it seems every petco and petsmart in my area has nothing but. I also need adults, not babies or juveniles and adult captive bred female russians are VERY uncommon. You are in the UK I see. I am in the US. Completly different situation we have over here.

but I do completely understand adult females being hard to find since usually you can only have the one male with a bunch of females. Never thought of it that way, especially since if I got CB i'd only aim for hatchling.

 

[FLINTUS]

Females are extremely hard to find. I don't need a bunch of males. For awhile it was hard to find females even at pet stores. Now it seems every petco and petsmart in my area has nothing but. I also need adults, not babies or juveniles and adult captive bred female russians are VERY uncommon. You are in the UK I see. I am in the US. Completly different situation we have over here.

Ok, I thought you were after hatchlings as I know of a number of breeders in The States. I had a conversation with someone in the US about the incubation and care methods in the US for Russians, it was quite interesting actually, weird as we are over-run with them, CB adults available for rehoming constantly. One does wonder why one of the larger sellers who has a master CITES permit doesn't try to ship them across from Europe. Providing there was a big enough market and they were happy to import lots of them, the cost would not be much per tortoise. We are over-run here, as I mentioned earlier on.

 

[Saleama]

Ok, I thought you were after hatchlings as I know of a number of breeders in The States. I had a conversation with someone in the US about the incubation and care methods in the US for Russians, it was quite interesting actually, weird as we are over-run with them, CB adults available for rehoming constantly. One does wonder why one of the larger sellers who has a master CITES permit doesn't try to ship them across from Europe. Providing there was a big enough market and they were happy to import lots of them, the cost would not be much per tortoise. We are over-run here, as I mentioned earlier on.

I wish they would. I would pay more if I had to. Seems we have either not tried real hard or can't seem to get it right over here. It could also be that the breeders only just got started so the tortoises are not adults yet. I did talk to a girl who "claimed" her animals were captive bred and shipped to a buyer in California and then they travel around to the shows to sell them. By the time they got to Texas they had about 25 males and no females. She said they usually sell all the girls before they get out of California. Now, I don't know if I was being fed a line of bs or not, but I checked every tort on her table and there were no girls. My feeling was that they were not CB from Western Europe like she said. They also go on "fire sale" for like $50 - $60 because they are so hard to sell them at that point.

 

[FLINTUS]

Well I guess that's another problem with the idea of adults and the fact they are hard to prove that they are CB. Over here, apart from pet shops which we are still cautious of, generally we assume adult Russians are CB, as the testudo genus here, has been bred for longer on a decent size scale compared to the population of humans(obviously you have 5X the amount of people, which makes a difference as there is more demand) than in the US. I guess that's down to geographical locations. Bear in mind also, that ALL hermanni and graeca here are now CB except for the old ones, we aren't allowed to import them anymore, as again, we had a lot already. Same kind of thing as the US with Red Foots, geographical again.

 

[smarch]

Well I guess that's another problem with the idea of adults and the fact they are hard to prove that they are CB. Over here, apart from pet shops which we are still cautious of, generally we assume adult Russians are CB, as the testudo genus here, has been bred for longer on a decent size scale compared to the population of humans(obviously you have 5X the amount of people, which makes a difference as there is more demand) than in the US. I guess that's down to geographical locations. Bear in mind also, that ALL hermanni and graeca here are now CB except for the old ones, we aren't allowed to import them anymore, as again, we had a lot already. Same kind of thing as the US with Red Foots, geographical again.

It confuses me that the US has more WC since we have to go through the process and work of shipping them practically across the world, while if we had more national breeders they'd only have to be shipped across the country, I feel like the shipping difference would make up for breeders wanting compensation for their work... but since we don't have many breeders they expect more money (supply and demand stuff) so we keep capturing wild ones, and its a cycle. I feel like we really should ban importing them as well, usually here it costs much less to get a Russian from a breeder than a pet store... so why do we keep getting them at pet stores?... people who don't stumble across this in research. In fact petco no where directly states where they come from, I had to email corporate to get the answer that my Franklin came all the way from around Kazakhstan...at least they gave me an answer. So apart from finding this site or thinking to ask petco about where your pet came from (which people with experience think of but as a new person I had no idea of any of this) you wont figure it out.
Oh well, maybe when franklin's old he'll be one of the few older generation WCs while all the youngers ones are CBs... one can only hope though

 

[RussianRoulette]

My first Russian tort was wild caught, although I didn't know that at the time of purchase. I got him from a specialist reptile shop and thought that was a reliable source but have since learnt they supplied a lot of misinformation and ignorance. As much as I'd like to rescue all of the torts they had in the shop I know now that would simply encourage their supply and demand ethics.

I can however say he has a great personality and is very personable and hasn't had any health problems so far (touch wood).

I also have three captive bred Russians and they have just as good personalities but my WC (Edison) will always be my first and have an extra special place in my heart.

At this point I don't have the room for any new torts but If in the future I have enough space and am financially able to support more I would opt for rescues regardless of CB/WC I don't want to encourage either wild caught shipping or irresponsible breeding so taking some stress of of animal shelters will be my way of giving something back.

 

[Tom]

I was very lucky with his health, he came completely healthy, after finding this forum and learning about all the parasites they can have, I kept a close eye, only went to the vet the first time this spring because he stopped eating (apparently there's an actual thing where they can get kind of a "post hibernation depression" even though he never hibernated, kinda like seasonal depression for us, so he got a fluid shot and stool sample never came back with anything so that was the definitive confirmation that he was healthy.

I want you and everyone reading to understand something. All of the above quoted info does NOT in any way guarantee that your tortoise is not infected with all sorts of things. A negative fecal simply means the vet didn't find anything in THAT sample. It does not mean it wasn't there. It does not mean other things aren't there. It just means the vet didn't see any ova from the more common worm species in that particular sample. There are many tortoise diseases that can be carried around asymptomatically and are VERY difficult to diagnose. Russians are infamous for this. A vet could do a fecal sample ten times and still not find a whole list of potential baddies that are there. Further, there is no "post hibernation depression". The tortoise had low appetite for a reason. Experience tells me that he was battling one of these internal baddies that I spoke of and felt a little under the weather until his immune system beat it back into remission again. Just a guess on my part. I have no way to confirm or deny this. None of my CB russians have ever experienced a "post hibernation depression" whether they hibernated or not. I can guarantee that if someone was willing to pay the $1000 for a complete necropsy on a recently deceased long term captive imported russian, there would be all kinds of "bugs" roaming around in there.

My point is to insure that care is taken. Anytime a tortoise is added to a collection a huge risk is taken. Even when its from a reputable source. Believe me, I speak from first hand, very expensive experience. Buying or rescuing WC russians and introducing them to each other is an enormous gamble. Some percentage of the gamblers are going to lose, and lose big. Please observe those lengthy quarantine periods and use tremendous caution. Even with CB animals of the same species. My vet recommends AT LEAST a one year quarantine for any new tortoises. Diminished appetite should be a huge red flag. If you have an animal or a herd that is healthy and all is good, think long and hard about whether its worth it to add just one more...

 

[N2TORTS]

Very well put Mr. Tom!

 

[smarch]

I want you and everyone reading to understand something. All of the above quoted info does NOT in any way guarantee that your tortoise is not infected with all sorts of things. A negative fecal simply means the vet didn't find anything in THAT sample. It does not mean it wasn't there. It does not mean other things aren't there. It just means the vet didn't see any ova from the more common worm species in that particular sample. There are many tortoise diseases that can be carried around asymptomatically and are VERY difficult to diagnose. Russians are infamous for this. A vet could do a fecal sample ten times and still not find a whole list of potential baddies that are there. Further, there is no "post hibernation depression". The tortoise had low appetite for a reason. Experience tells me that he was battling one of these internal baddies that I spoke of and felt a little under the weather until his immune system beat it back into remission again. Just a guess on my part. I have no way to confirm or deny this. None of my CB russians have ever experienced a "post hibernation depression" whether they hibernated or not. I can guarantee that if someone was willing to pay the $1000 for a complete necropsy on a recently deceased long term captive imported russian, there would be all kinds of "bugs" roaming around in there.

My point is to insure that care is taken. Anytime a tortoise is added to a collection a huge risk is taken. Even when its from a reputable source. Believe me, I speak from first hand, very expensive experience. Buying or rescuing WC russians and introducing them to each other is an enormous gamble. Some percentage of the gamblers are going to lose, and lose big. Please observe those lengthy quarantine periods and use tremendous caution. Even with CB animals of the same species. My vet recommends AT LEAST a one year quarantine for any new tortoises. Diminished appetite should be a huge red flag. If you have an animal or a herd that is healthy and all is good, think long and hard about whether its worth it to add just one more...

I know post hibernation slump sounds dumb and I'm still sceptical about such a thing, but for the most part he was just dehydrated.

If Russians are notorious at hiding things, does that mean the ones that don't show symptoms can still be sick, and will it harm him in the long run? Is there anything that can help find these bugs whilst he's alive? I just want what's best for him, esspecially since I didn't know the WC dangers when I got him. I just want to make this clear that I don't intend on having Franklin live with any group or any other individual. I got him with that as a fact.