Weight question...

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Alan RF

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I bought my red foot in July and he weighed 78g which fluctuated for a while. His shell measured 10cm from front to back down the centre. Today he weighs 129g and his shell has stayed the same in length and width??? I can see at his rear some chubby bits :D lol ..... Should I be worried or not? He eats and looks healthy? Would appreciate your input! Don't want him to die from obesity :(
 

Redstrike

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On which end of the BMI are you?

I don't find it too controversial, but some do. You could also use the Jackson Ratio and do something similar if you think that would work best.
 

Watsonpartyof4

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I always thought as long as they can pull themselves into their shells they are not overweight.... I am no expert, I have only had my tort for almost 3 years...
 

Redstrike

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I find the objectivity of science difficult to argue. The Donoghue formula and Jackson ratio were constructed using the scientific method. Body Mass Index is also based on science and has been used by nutritionists for decades...I'm really confused why such an incredible resource is being so poorly received.
 

Alan RF

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Redstrike said:
I find the objectivity of science difficult to argue. The Donoghue formula and Jackson ratio were constructed using the scientific method. Body Mass Index is also based on science and has been used by nutritionists for decades...I'm really confused why such an incredible resource is being so poorly received.

Sorry red strike :( I should of phrased my reply better ...what I meant is the thread link you asked me to look at, when ive read through it seems controversial and by working out the BMI by the first thread he'd be ill....I'll look at the Jackson one :) thanks for your advice x


Watsonpartyof4 said:
I always thought as long as they can pull themselves into their shells they are not overweight.... I am no expert, I have only had my tort for almost 3 years...

Sounds a reasonable conclusion :) I just want him to grow healthily and maybe he was underweight at the reptile shop when I bought him. They certainly didn't have his humidity, substrate and temps right and his shell has slight pyramiding ....I'm hoping that'll stay as it is and not get any worse :)
 

Redstrike

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Nothing to be sorry about, Alan. I now understand what you were saying from reading more of the thread.

My understanding of the Jackson ratio is that it was constructed using steppe tortoise species, that's why I don't use it for my redfoots. The Donoghue formula in conjunction with a simple BMI calculation provides a metric for assessing proper body weight of your tortoise. Depending on how many standard deviations you are from the mean value, you can determine whether your tortoise may be underfed, overfed, or dehydrated. It forces me to consider my husbandry practices and evaluate whether weight is near optimum given the tortoises size and my husbandry practices.

Is it a guarantee, nope! In fact, it does not work particularly well on hatchlings and small tortoises, but it provides more information than the "shell test". Your tortoise may be able to go completely in its shell and be 2 standard deviations from the mean (BMI = .66-.83) indicating that it is most likely dehydrated or underfed - information you would not have gained without calculating BMI using the Donoghue formula. To scoff at sound science waxes ignorance to me.
 

Watsonpartyof4

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Ok hear is a question.... Can they over eat? I mean I make sure Tyrone has greens available always. Then every other day to every two days I give him the Mazuri ... He has been growing. So how do you know if you are feeding too much? Do they stop when they are full?

More things for me to obsess about!


Alan RF said:
I bought my red foot in July and he weighed 78g which fluctuated for a while. His shell measured 10cm from front to back down the centre. Today he weighs 129g and his shell has stayed the same in length and width??? I can see at his rear some chubby bits :D lol ..... Should I be worried or not? He eats and looks healthy? Would appreciate your input! Don't want him to die from obesity :(

I want to see these so called chubby bits! LOL!
 

RedfootsRule

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I've never worried about overfeeding my red foots...I give them food and they eat what they want. Its very rare, from my understanding, for a tortoise to get overweight. Everytime I feed my tortoises, there is a small amount of left-over food.
 

Alan RF

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Redstrike said:
Nothing to be sorry about, Alan. I now understand what you were saying from reading more of the thread.

My understanding of the Jackson ratio is that it was constructed using steppe tortoise species, that's why I don't use it for my redfoots. The Donoghue formula in conjunction with a simple BMI calculation provides a metric for assessing proper body weight of your tortoise. Depending on how many standard deviations you are from the mean value, you can determine whether your tortoise may be underfed, overfed, or dehydrated. It forces me to consider my husbandry practices and evaluate whether weight is near optimum given the tortoises size and my husbandry practices.

Is it a guarantee, nope! In fact, it does not work particularly well on hatchlings and small tortoises, but it provides more information than the "shell test". Your tortoise may be able to go completely in its shell and be 2 standard deviations from the mean (BMI = .66-.83) indicating that it is most likely dehydrated or underfed - information you would not have gained without calculating BMI using the Donoghue formula. To scoff at sound science waxes ignorance to me.

I've been measuring Alan's shell from front to back, centrally and it's 11cm. When I measure him in a straight line, say on the measuring tape he's 8.5cm. He weighs 128g today.....so I now need to work out his BMI :) back to the thread!


Watsonpartyof4 said:
Ok hear is a question.... Can they over eat? I mean I make sure Tyrone has greens available always. Then every other day to every two days I give him the Mazuri ... He has been growing. So how do you know if you are feeding too much? Do they stop when they are full?

More things for me to obsess about!



I want to see these so called chubby bits! LOL!



Ha ha here it goes! Quick shot but he was a wriggler!


image-1367918575.png



image-3970596308.png


The front shot is for Tyrone ....he says hi it's getting cold over in the UK so I'm putting some weight on to keep me warm :)
 

Watsonpartyof4

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Oh he does have some chubby bits!

Well since you showed me Alan's backside Tyrone wanted to show his!

image-550082199.png

And of course he wanted to say Cheerio to Alan!

image-4041976573.png

In this one he is saying ... Ok I am embarrassed you took a picture of my backside. Can you put me done now ...geese

image-1681383459.png


I do have to say Alan has a beautiful smooth shell! Poor Tyrone came to us with pyramiding.. But he has nice smooth growth now!
 

Alan RF

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Watsonpartyof4 said:
Oh he does have some chubby bits!

Well since you showed me Alan's backside Tyrone wanted to show his!

And of course he wanted to say Cheerio to Alan!

In this one he is saying ... Ok I am embarrassed you took a picture of my backside. Can you put me done now ...geese



I do have to say Alan has a beautiful smooth shell! Poor Tyrone came to us with pyramiding.. But he has nice smooth growth now!



Awww Tyrone is so cute bless and his butt! I thought Alan had pyramiding? It's a little raised and it was when we got him :( I'm hoping it doesn't raise any more :( Are you getting Tyrone that hide castle for Xmas still? Not sure what to buy Alan?
 

Watsonpartyof4

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Alan RF said:
Awww Tyrone is so cute bless and his butt! I thought Alan had pyramiding? It's a little raised and it was when we got him :( I'm hoping it doesn't raise any more :( Are you getting Tyrone that hide castle for Xmas still? Not sure what to buy Alan?

I am trying to find it local, the one pet store is sold out but they keep telling me it will be I stock before Xmas. If not I will order it after!

It is getting colder in Ohio and snowing! So we are enjoying a cozy evening home.

image-3559360017.png
 

diaboliqueturtle

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"I like big butts and I cannot lie..." Hihihi

I gotta try that measurement, now I'm curious how Princesse fares on that scale. How exactly do you measure the shell? Do you lay the tape on the shell and measure including the "dome" or do you hold it above/underneath and look straight down?
 

Alan RF

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diaboliqueturtle said:
"I like big butts and I cannot lie..." Hihihi

I gotta try that measurement, now I'm curious how Princesse fares on that scale. How exactly do you measure the shell? Do you lay the tape on the shell and measure including the "dome" or do you hold it above/underneath and look straight down?
Ha ha to big butts! He's still cute x
I think you lay the tape down and put the beginning bit as near to the front as possible when you place princess on top of it. Then the back bit is your measurement? Alan is 8.5cm this way but the other way he's 11cm over the dome.
 

Redstrike

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Straight Carapace Length (SCL) is measured from the nuchal to the supracaudal scutes and does not include the curvature of the shell.

http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

I use calipers to do the measurement, but the link above works well too. If you include the curvature of the shell you are measuring Curved Carapace Length (CCL). See attached PDF.
 

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Alan RF

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Redstrike said:
Straight Carapace Length (SCL) is measured from the nuchal to the supracaudal scutes and does not include the curvature of the shell.

http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

I use calipers to do the measurement, but the link above works well too. If you include the curvature of the shell you are measuring Curved Carapace Length (CCL). See attached PDF.

Arrrr that's even better! Cheers :)
 

diaboliqueturtle

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Redstrike said:
Straight Carapace Length (SCL) is measured from the nuchal to the supracaudal scutes and does not include the curvature of the shell.

http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

I use calipers to do the measurement, but the link above works well too. If you include the curvature of the shell you are measuring Curved Carapace Length (CCL). See attached PDF.

Ha! Now I get it! Thanks for clearing that up :)
 

Alan RF

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Well it's clean out the viv day! Just thought I'd add this photo of Alan only just being able to turn round in his hide [second hide! His main one is the largest half log I can fit in his viv!]. :)


image-1847021803.png
 
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