What is the physiology behind pyramiding?

FLINTUS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,402
Location (City and/or State)
Watery Wiltshire in the UK
Huge difference between hot humidity and mild(temperature) humidity as what we have in the British Isles and North West Europe. Hot humidity is the kind of thing you are promoting, and what you might find in Florida or southern India. Personally I hate that kind of humidity. Mild humidity is not what you're promoting.
 

Dizisdalife

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
1,754
Location (City and/or State)
California
FLINTUS said:
Huge difference between hot humidity and mild(temperature) humidity as what we have in the British Isles and North West Europe. Hot humidity is the kind of thing you are promoting, and what you might find in Florida or southern India. Personally I hate that kind of humidity. Mild humidity is not what you're promoting.

You are correct.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,660
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
I too don't like it hot and humid. However it's been seen on here many
Times, low temps with or without humidity produces sick tortoises.
Hatchlings anyway. The hot and humid is for hatchlings upto a year
Or so. Warm and humid, is still humid.
 

nearpass

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
109
wellington said:
tortadise said:
Post 31/33 is the start of Pardalis Andy has raised.

Thanks Kelly, but again, where are the details? How humid. Where was he located. Living in Florida (I know he doesn't) I could most likely raise a smooth leopard with no artificial (whatever his meaning of this is) humidity either. Same goes for living in England, Ireland, rain, rain and more rain with plenty of humidity under the shrubs. If it can be done. Give the details of how it was done. Don't leave out things like some members or former members do. We all live in different areas. In order for us to duplicate your dry? success, we have to know exactly how you did it, the temps use, humidity levels used, diet, etc so we can apply the same to the areas we all live.

Post #252 on the pervious page.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
I think Tom spoiled us. What we were hoping Andy could provide was a step-by-step in the raising of his leopard tortoise. Like, "Here's a picture of my baby leopard tortoise and here's his habitat." Then in 6 months or a year, "Here's that same leopard tortoise at a year and his habitat."

See, anyone can post a picture of a smooth tortoise and say, "This is my tortoise I raised him from a hatchling on dry alfalfa pellets."

We wanted to see pictures of the process.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,660
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Thank you Yvonne, at least you get it. I'm not into believing someone
Just because they said so. No one else should be either. I can't say
It any plainer then I already have. Details, every detail. If you can't
Give every detail, then people are left to assume and we all know that's
Not a good thing. Remember, there are all kinds of people here. Some
Even preaching one thing, yet doing another Others who talk as
Experts, yet shows nothing. If you want to change things show all the
Proof, ALL the details.
 

Levi the Leopard

IXOYE
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
7,958
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Oregon
They were raised in a polytunnel (18ft X 40 feet) with ambient humidity ranging from 40% to 60%. It would mostly be in the 50-55% range. No overhead heat lamps were used. Background heat was provided by multiple water-filled radiators powered by an oil-fired central heating system. Solar gain was excellent from spring to early fall. Tortoises achieved body temperatures of up to 30C quite easily even on overcast days. In hot weather, they hid under shade and some buried into scrapes. In good weather, they were given access to an outdoor area this contained mixed grazes and grasses. Some natural UVB passed through the plastic but UVB tubes were added at a low level to assist in that respect. In winter, heat continued to be provided, but tortoise activity and feeding was much reduced.. additional insulation was added to the tunnel.... light levels were lower and temperatures in the area reduced to around 18-20C, sometimes even a bit lower at night. Diet was high fiber, high calcium, with a (DM) protein level of circa 8%. A calcium-D3 product called "Nutrobal" (similar to Repcal+D3) was also provided daily. Concrete 'trays' permitted drinking and bathing from fresh water also provided daily.

Really. That's it. That's all. Photos of animals posted previously.
bold and italics mine

I wouldn't consider this raising them dry. They have moderate humidity and without the drying effect of basking bulbs (now that we are hearing about IR-A) I can see how they stayed hydrated.

A few others that aren't raising them with "The hot and humid method" of 80%+RH yet still achieve relatively smooth results all seem to have 2 things in common. 1- moderate humidity in the environment and 2- NO BASKING BULBS

Since NO ONE is raising them smooth with real DRY methods, it seems to me you have a few choices. We all know there is no 1 way to do it.

You can raise them outdoors as "natural" as possible with moderate humidity and different micro climates. They grow slower but relatively smooth.
But if your outdoor conditions CANT offer moderate humidity then maybe you'll choose to start them indoors. That's what I do. It's what anyone in any location in the world can do. So, in this case we see using higher humidity with basking bulbs works very well. After a hydrated head start they move outdoors and all this debate over 10%-20% difference in humidity becomes a moot point anyway.

When people ask me how to raise their leopard tortoise I tell them how I raise mine. It's what I know and has produced results I like. They can choose to try it or not. It's up to them. If they want to, I can help them because it's what I know. If they want to set them up like Andy in a poly tunnel outdoors I can't help them because I don't know that.
There are certain members here that don't share enough details about what they do. I wish they did. I've tried to understand what Baoh does. I've seen some great looking torts by him. Other members, too. They show great tortoises but don't share enough details for me to understand what they do or implement it myself if I wanted to. Tom has gone into so much depth on the "how to" with his method that I have a good understanding of how to apply it.
Honestly, if I could raise all the leopards outdoors full time, I would. I'd prefer to do that. But I want them healthy and with a natural smooth look. I'm not after a bowling ball of perfection. But I don't like the horribly spiked leopards I commonly see.

If someone could share their outdoor raising information as detailed as Tom shares about the humidity/ closed chambers AND it worked in my location... I'd consider it.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,660
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Ditto Heather. We would all love to be able to raise our tortoises out side with little to no added equipment. It would be a whole lot cheaper too. Unfortunately, not only do most of us not have that option, but like you said, the other members won't share what they want to preach. I too have asked many times for proof of Baoh and details. Also like you, he gives nothing. I have not seen his torts, only pics of others he has posted. So, I too will stay with what has proven too work. Well if I were to get another leopard that is. I will though keep dong what I have from the beginning, promoting Toms way.
 

nearpass

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
109
Team Gomberg said:
I wouldn't consider this raising them dry. They have moderate humidity and without the drying effect of basking bulbs (now that we are hearing about IR-A) I can see how they stayed hydrated.

A few others that aren't raising them with "The hot and humid method" of 80%+RH yet still achieve relatively smooth results all seem to have 2 things in common. 1- moderate humidity in the environment and 2- NO BASKING BULBS

Since NO ONE is raising them smooth with real DRY methods, it seems to me you have a few choices. We all know there is no 1 way to do it.

You can raise them outdoors as "natural" as possible with moderate humidity and different micro climates. They grow slower but relatively smooth.

But if your outdoor conditions CANT offer moderate humidity then maybe you'll choose to start them indoors. That's what I do. It's what anyone in any location in the world can do. So, in this case we see using higher humidity with basking bulbs works very well. After a hydrated head start they move outdoors and all this debate over 10%-20% difference in humidity becomes a moot point anyway.

When people ask me how to raise their leopard tortoise I tell them how I raise mine. It's what I know and has produced results I like. They can choose to try it or not. It's up to them. If they want to, I can help them because it's what I know. If they want to set them up like Andy in a poly tunnel outdoors I can't help them because I don't know that.
There are certain members here that don't share enough details about what they do. I wish they did. I've tried to understand what Baoh does. I've seen some great looking torts by him. Other members, too. They show great tortoises but don't share enough details for me to understand what they do or implement it myself if I wanted to. Tom has gone into so much depth on the "how to" with his method that I have a good understanding of how to apply it.
Honestly, if I could raise all the leopards outdoors full time, I would. I'd prefer to do that. But I want them healthy and with a natural smooth look. I'm not after a bowling ball of perfection. But I don't like the horribly spiked leopards I commonly see.

If someone could share their outdoor raising information as detailed as Tom shares about the humidity/ closed chambers AND it worked in my location... I'd consider it.

I think that's a fair and concise summary. After thinking all of this through a great deal, I'm very interested to explore lighting and heating changes, and dietary changes as well, since I have no option right now but to keeo them inside in the winter. I've added a humidifier to my animal room, may add a second, to try and keep the ambient humidity around 60%. I've changed to some lower wattage incandescent lights a little closer, in those combo-fixtures that lets them be horizontal, (to maybe create more of a warm zone) and tube flourescents...just got an Arcadia bulb. I'm letting the night time temps drop a little bit more, but not to a really chilly level, and I'm misting more often with a spray bottle.

I'm really struggling with the high fiber diet part, which I think is crucial.

I know this is probably a feeble beginning, and am intrigued with the poly-tunnel idea, and may explore some greenhouse options, which should at least allow me to extend the 'outdoor' time by a couple of months.
 

Len B

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,986
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Md - Northern Neck Va
I've tried the green house and it doesn't work in my area (MD,VA) unless their is no exposed soil in it. On concrete or or some other type of vapor barrier I have had some success. The moisture coming from the ground keeps it to moist and almost impossible to heat. I actually test with tender opuntia types first, it will tell me how cold it gets, cold and moist will kill many types of cactus, if the test cactus cant take it a tortoise cant either. I have many plants that are not supposed to live here that I can keep outside without added heat, just have to keep them dry. I keep several sulcatas outside all year. They have heated houses, heated mostly with heat pads and or panels made of ceramic tiles. When they exit their house they are outside not in any other protected area. This is my 4th winter doing it this way and it works for me and I believe the tortoises are better off this way rather than being inside all winter under artifical lighting. Even the young ones come out daily to eat and drink. It reminds me of what they are said to do when it gets real hot and they spend most of the day hideing in a cool spot, only these are getting out of the cold. As for raising a smooth sulcata I did it with Alex sort of the way Tom suggest, I did not use any type of hot lighting, CHE, or oil filled heater, and I believe a little less humidity. I have posted about her progress since the day I recieved her. Last Feburary I posted pics of Walker in snow, they are still their but on a closed topic. Another thing, could the incubation process that is used be in any way a factor in how well a sulcata grows ?
 

Dizisdalife

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
1,754
Location (City and/or State)
California
Thanks Heather for summarizing this so well.

I read about Len's heated tiles earlier in the month and was impressed with how smooth his sulcata looked. What really caught my eye was that he wasn't using traditional basking lamp and che or radiator to heat with.
If anyone is interested in seeing them here is the link. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-82952.html
 

nearpass

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
109
Dizisdalife said:
Thanks Heather for summarizing this so well.

I read about Len's heated tiles earlier in the month and was impressed with how smooth his sulcata looked. What really caught my eye was that he wasn't using traditional basking lamp and che or radiator to heat with.
If anyone is interested in seeing them here is the link. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-82952.html

Thanks for the link! Will definitely peruse this!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
nearpass said:
You convey as much of an attitude of contempt and 'it's my way or you'll fail' as you accuse others of.

You are entitled to your opinion of the situation, but I cannot, will not, let the above stand unchallenged. This is simply NOT true. I am open to anyone who can show me new things and how to make tortoises healthier or find better ways to raise them. If you read all these posts you would see me giving credit where it was due. I have learned form other people for as long as I've been keeping tortoises. The fact of the matter is, a leopard or sulcata tortoise raised in any normal conventional set up with dry substrate, low humidity and a hot bulb, WILL pyramid. I have seen it hundreds of times and done it myself more times than I care to remember. This is not a question of "MY" way. This is a simple fact. There is no one in the world that is going to come on to this forum, post a single picture with no explanation, and then tell me that everything I have seen with my own eyes for the last 20+ years is wrong. Andy FINALLY divulged some of the details about how he did this with the single leopard tortoise he showed a picture of. Basically its a giant outdoor closed chamber from the sound of it. The devil is in the details. I would love to see a whole thread on this with pics and much more detail. I will publicly grant him right here and now that he has apparently raised one leopard tortoise smooth using the method he described. So he didn't do it my way, and with the few details he's given, he did not fail. There. Now the above quoted sentence is clearly false.


lilacdragon said:
I would love to see your torts! They must be some of the luckiest alive... :)

Frances, not sure if you will see this, but I'm sad to see your time here end so abruptly. I think you have much to offer and your ability to be diplomatic is second to none. Even if you are gone, I thought other people reading might also like to see some of the tortoises we are discussing and the enclosures they are housed in. I'm afraid my indoor enclosures might meet your "prison cell" standards, but they are made to be practical, not so aesthetically pleasing, and only used for a year or two at most. My time is mostly spent on the outdoor enclosures, since this is where they will spend the vast majority of their lives. I have a real problem with indoor plants in my enclosures. All of my tortoises of all species try to eat plastic plants, so I don't use them to avoid impaction risk. Live plants that can be bought from a store are laced with systemic pesticides that last up to a year. When I have tried to grow my own, the tortoises trample or eat them in a few days. I have not found a solution to these problems, so my indoor enclosures are quite barren looking although they meet the tortoises needs just fine.

Anyway here are some threads:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-56465.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-56643.html

Outdoors:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-38788.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28662.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-30151.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-50846.html

I took the time to re-read these as I pulled them up. I wonder what your assessment of the long term health of my tortoises will be after seeing some of these.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Dizisdalife said:
For me, the keeping of a tortoise is a low stress proposition. I love the serenity it brings when I see them basking in the warm sun, seemingly smiling, not a care in the world. This morning I joined Chuck (my almost 4 year old sulcata) for a bit of basking time. The air temperature was just above 60F, but the sun was bright and warmed us both. I ate a tangerine from my tree, still cool from the evening chill, while Chuck had an optunia pad fresh from the plant. I wonder if he could see me smiling.

Joe, I was smiling when I read this. This is the whole reason why I keep these animals. I just got to do this yesterday. I set down the food tray sat down and watched all my bigger sulcatas come walking over to eat. I felt so serene and content during that 30 minutes or so of doing absolutely nothing.

Thanks for sharing this.
 

Dizisdalife

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
1,754
Location (City and/or State)
California
Tom said:
Andy FINALLY divulged some of the details about how he did this with the single leopard tortoise he showed a picture of. Basically its a giant outdoor closed chamber from the sound of it. The devil is in the details. I would love to see a whole thread on this with pics and much more detail.

I would too. I looked up polytunnel and found that it is a greenhouse kit. Interesting. One of the TFO members, I can't recall the user name, constructed a smaller version of this recently and is using it in addition to a heated house for his sulcata this winter. Where I live there are too many sunny days that would make it hard to manage the heat and humidity. When I drive past all the green houses in my area I see the vents open and the fans blowing to get the heat out. Maybe Andy resolved these issues. I hope he shares the details.
 

FLINTUS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,402
Location (City and/or State)
Watery Wiltshire in the UK
One of the major problems/conflictions in this thread is the use of the words 'dry' and 'humid', something I myself have been guilty of-while I have spent time in arid areas, the UK is naturally mild and humid so I kind of think of dry as 60% or under. When Andy and I and others mean dry, we are putting it in context compared to your definition of 'humid' , so we are not talking about 10% humidity or anything. We are proposing what you refer to as 'moderate' humidity, around the 50-60% mark. Perhaps when debating this again we need to stop using words which can be interpreted in a number of ways like 'humid' & 'cold'-the latter as proved in a weather thread on here.
 

Sulcata_Sandy

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
1,579
Location (City and/or State)
Pacific NorthWET
FLINTUS, you took the words right outta my mouth.

I, too, would like RH values used vs "dry/humid". I posted on another thread my findings of using pellets for substrate. One of my rescues came with them, so I left him in his own house (came with him) as to not completely change his world. When I added a hygrometer, I consistently got 8-12% RH!!!

Now he's on or is bark (adult Jordanian Greek), and he's at 45-65% RH.
My hatchling from Tom (now almost 4 months) is now at 75% RH, on damp peat/sphagnum.
My Redfoots are 85-95% RH.

I also most everyone's carapace twice daily. So far, all new growth coming in on all of my tortoises is still very smooth.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
FLINTUS said:
One of the major problems/conflictions in this thread is the use of the words 'dry' and 'humid', something I myself have been guilty of-while I have spent time in arid areas, the UK is naturally mild and humid so I kind of think of dry as 60% or under. When Andy and I and others mean dry, we are putting it in context compared to your definition of 'humid' , so we are not talking about 10% humidity or anything. We are proposing what you refer to as 'moderate' humidity, around the 50-60% mark. Perhaps when debating this again we need to stop using words which can be interpreted in a number of ways like 'humid' & 'cold'-the latter as proved in a weather thread on here.

Man you are SOOOOO right about this. My climate is so "dry". I don't think we hit 50% humidity WHILE its raining! (Kidding) Seriously though, my hygrometers which show every indication of being "reasonably" accurate, at least within a few percentage points, only go down to 16%. They won't register anything any lower. They are pegged at 16% almost every day. I have a grassy well planted back yard that is irrigated every night. One of my hygrometers is mounted about 5' above the ground on a pole bordering the grass. Right now it is reading 16% humidity and 46 degrees F. Later today we will warm up to about 75 F and the humidity will only get drier as the moisture burns off. I have smiled in amusement several times during this discussion when 80% humidity is called "bizarre", but 70% is "moderate" and perfectly "normal" and fine.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
I don't know how accurate it is, but my SIL got me a gizmo that you mount once section outside and the other inside. It tells you humidity, temperature, day of the week, moon phase, etc. Right now, outside, the humidity is 76% and inside it is 35%.

I had no idea our humidity here in the Central Valley was so high. We're in a drought with no measurable rain for many months, and I haven't run any sprinklers for a couple months either.
 
Top