Yvonne G said:
These are great to have. If you check the outside humidity later this afternoon I bet it will be closer to your inside humidity. Mine is always highest in the mornings.
What is the physiology behind pyramiding?
- Thread starter lpcullum
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These are great to have. If you check the outside humidity later this afternoon I bet it will be closer to your inside humidity. Mine is always highest in the mornings.
Team Gomberg said:
I know! It freaked me out when I was able to repeatedly record that RH. I recently lost a rescue who'd been housed on hay in an aquarium. Died of severe, chronic dehydration. No animal should live in 10% humidity. My father was kind enough to bury him on the family property.
So I listen to Tom and Andy...two people I really respect from so many aspects of animal husbandry, experience and science. I grew up on a farm, raised many creatures, show, breed and train dogs processionally, am a 25 year veteran Licensed Vet Tech, was a pre-vet student...I can respect and sympathize anyone....so this thread has been interesting for me. I still admire both Andy and Tom, as both have a multitude of experience to offer.
Can you both agree to disagree? Take someone like me, for example....I'm a veterinary professional...I never finished Vet school do to nasty divorce. But I did complete 8 years of school, two of which I majored in microbiology. My farm background, and my 25 years as a working vet tech....I have a unique perspective on science and nature vs nurture. This is why both Tom and Andy have much to offer. I gleam what I can use from both. I have a duty to clients and the DVMs I work with to offer sound advice.
Tom-there is a reason I bought two hatchlings from you...your experience, dedication, and years of proven results drew me to you.
Andy-you are a pure scientist, I am drawn to that vs anecdotal "housewife" experience. Your methods are precise, your data is methodical and repeatable, your articles are well documented and fairly reviewed.
I kinda want a group hug right now.
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I'll second that, Sandy.
I propose that someone with a humidity meter does some serious humidity measurements, with gradients across the WHOLE cage/tank/tub/tortoise table, across a huge range of substrate types, heater/lamp types and spraying routines.
This info ought to be out there!
A lot could be done over a few days, if someone has some empty set-ups and access to assorted lamps, heaters and substrates...
It strikes me that although Andy has done quite detailed work on a set of shop-bought vivaria, and Tom has done a vast amount of work on humid method enclosures, there are dozens of other ways that torts are being housed and no-one has a clue as to what humidity they provide.
It reminds me of when I started measuring the output of UVB lamps, 10 years ago. Even some of the companies selling them had NO IDEA of their output!
Oops I ought to be back at work. This debate is too interesting
I propose that someone with a humidity meter does some serious humidity measurements, with gradients across the WHOLE cage/tank/tub/tortoise table, across a huge range of substrate types, heater/lamp types and spraying routines.
This info ought to be out there!
A lot could be done over a few days, if someone has some empty set-ups and access to assorted lamps, heaters and substrates...
It strikes me that although Andy has done quite detailed work on a set of shop-bought vivaria, and Tom has done a vast amount of work on humid method enclosures, there are dozens of other ways that torts are being housed and no-one has a clue as to what humidity they provide.
It reminds me of when I started measuring the output of UVB lamps, 10 years ago. Even some of the companies selling them had NO IDEA of their output!
Oops I ought to be back at work. This debate is too interesting
lilacdragon said:
The same came be said for UVB exposure in our enclosures. Only a very small percentage of keepers have a UV meter. I recently bought one, still figuring it out (it reads results as XXX.X).
I can tweak your splendid idea, since we keepers all have differing enclosures/habitats, why don't we all do a study of our own enclosures. I have about 15 hygrometers, I keep at least two in each enclosure. Three of mine have ReptiFoggers, and I mist all of my tortoises twice a day (well, sometimes I forget [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]). I'd be happy to document my temps/humidity and share. Maybe you or I can start a separate thread with our findings? While not scientific, the information can still be useful and possibly quite illuminating! As I found with those darn pellets! 10% RH....EEEEEK!
Anyone else interested in documenting their findings? Tom?
Andy or Tom, is this a good idea? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Do do it accurately you need some pricy tools. Properly testing RH also conjectures with soil moisture content. Ambient humidity may be "good" but the start of it all is below and integraded in the soil systems. This is why I always recommend very deep and layered substrates. ECh species and their native environment dictates wwhich soils and layer systems I use.
For example. For my Egyptians. I use a first layer of clay about 4". Then an additional layer of pea gravel/sand. Then a layer of top soil capped with decomposed granite. When it "dews" ( I spray down with a sprayer) in the morning. It spikes humidity as it were a morning fog or climate change. Ounce it warms up the RH drops but at substrate level it still retains some moisture. That dwindles throughout the day as the temperature rises. Thusly creating a more stable natural climate. Constant humidity is never ideal in any environment. Even in rainforests the RH spikes and declines with temperatures infliction. Data loggers are the best tool for this measurement. They can set to daily hourly monthly weekly etc... settings. They also test the temperatures. Then you can test ambient and RH.
I look at tortoise keeping like a house. You can't have a good house without a foundation. So providing proper enclosures in captivity, you have to have a good foundation. A natural foundation. Just mulch or coco coir does not suffice for me. I think its a huge issue. It seems to be the major problem with keepers maintaining proper temperatures and RH.
For example. For my Egyptians. I use a first layer of clay about 4". Then an additional layer of pea gravel/sand. Then a layer of top soil capped with decomposed granite. When it "dews" ( I spray down with a sprayer) in the morning. It spikes humidity as it were a morning fog or climate change. Ounce it warms up the RH drops but at substrate level it still retains some moisture. That dwindles throughout the day as the temperature rises. Thusly creating a more stable natural climate. Constant humidity is never ideal in any environment. Even in rainforests the RH spikes and declines with temperatures infliction. Data loggers are the best tool for this measurement. They can set to daily hourly monthly weekly etc... settings. They also test the temperatures. Then you can test ambient and RH.
I look at tortoise keeping like a house. You can't have a good house without a foundation. So providing proper enclosures in captivity, you have to have a good foundation. A natural foundation. Just mulch or coco coir does not suffice for me. I think its a huge issue. It seems to be the major problem with keepers maintaining proper temperatures and RH.
Sulcata_Sandy said:
As long as the hug includes a tortoise or two, I would agree. What I would add to your above reasoning is the Tom is someone that sincerely loves the tortoise. What he does, or does not do, is for the sake of the tortoise. He is a tortoise keeper. Has a life long interest in reptiles, but tortoises specifically. Tom has pets and babies. His are not subjects and specimens. They all have names and he knows each of their personalities. I just don't get that from reading Andy's articles and certainly not from his post here. I do agree that he is a pure scientist. Tom's writings are, in my opinion, understandable to the "housewife", or in my case the "average keeper" that Andy doesn't have the time to respond to.
lilacdragon said:I'll second that, Sandy.
I propose that someone with a humidity meter does some serious humidity measurements, with gradients across the WHOLE cage/tank/tub/tortoise table, across a huge range of substrate types, heater/lamp types and spraying routines.
This info ought to be out there!
A lot could be done over a few days, if someone has some empty set-ups and access to assorted lamps, heaters and substrates...
It strikes me that although Andy has done quite detailed work on a set of shop-bought vivaria, and Tom has done a vast amount of work on humid method enclosures, there are dozens of other ways that torts are being housed and no-one has a clue as to what humidity they provide.
It reminds me of when I started measuring the output of UVB lamps, 10 years ago. Even some of the companies selling them had NO IDEA of their output!
Oops I ought to be back at work. This debate is too interesting
This would be interesting, but I am not sure what this would add. Andy has taken 25,000 measurements in the wild, including burrows, tunnels, scrapes, plus the studies on vivariums. One of his more interesting post, at least to me, showed that heat lamps reduced the RH significantly at the carapace. The physiology that was attributed to this spot seems to very damaging. This was not a surprise to me. It merely substantiated a hunch of mine that Tom and I discussed off line some 18 months ago.
To further the raising of smooth shelled healthy tortoises I feel that the real work is to be done in the area of lighting and heating of the average keepers enclosure. There have been some interesting post recently on TFO in both of those areas. Tells me that I am not the only one that was suspicious about those hot lamps. I am really not that smart after all. The technology is a little too pricey and obscure right now for us average keepers, but it will evolve. When we can sort out these issues, and understand why the tortoise needs to bask as opposed to just be warm, then we can indeed raise them in a more naturalistic manner. Something that Tom and Andy could both embrace.
When I used the term "housewife" as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned, I by no means meant Tom. Tom is an advanced keeper, and has valid information and experience he's passed on to others over the course of many years.
When I say "housewife", it's what we in Veterinary Medicine refer to as people who, for example, have owned one dog for 15 years, and build Webpages or start a class and claim to be an expert and tell the true professionals who have advanced degrees or a lifetime of academic field work that they are idiots and no one should listen to their "stupid" veterinarian.
Now back to the idea of TFO members obtaining non-scientific data for an interesting study on differing enclosure setups....because it will be realistic of what is out there in the tortoise keeping world. I can read Andy's brilliant studies on wild habitat all day long, but I live in a cold climate and my tortoise are wintered indoors about 9 months of the year. So while his data shows me what I should strive to achieve for said spp, it doesn't tell me what I can achieve in my own home...indoors or out.
If this project is done right, it would include a picture of the setup, description of substrate (type, depth, etc), lighting/heating products used, misting or fogging or both, then the various readings of temp and RH. I feel it would be useful for us to see what results we can achieve with various already exhibiting household setups. We can share and gleam ideas. Make suggestions for new people. What Andy can buy or have built, most pet keepers cannot, Tom posts lots of pix of his fantastic outdoor enclosures/hides, some members have posts elaborate, decorative houses, others are simple and a child can put it together. We can see what these various sets are producing in terms microclimates.
When I say "housewife", it's what we in Veterinary Medicine refer to as people who, for example, have owned one dog for 15 years, and build Webpages or start a class and claim to be an expert and tell the true professionals who have advanced degrees or a lifetime of academic field work that they are idiots and no one should listen to their "stupid" veterinarian.
Now back to the idea of TFO members obtaining non-scientific data for an interesting study on differing enclosure setups....because it will be realistic of what is out there in the tortoise keeping world. I can read Andy's brilliant studies on wild habitat all day long, but I live in a cold climate and my tortoise are wintered indoors about 9 months of the year. So while his data shows me what I should strive to achieve for said spp, it doesn't tell me what I can achieve in my own home...indoors or out.
If this project is done right, it would include a picture of the setup, description of substrate (type, depth, etc), lighting/heating products used, misting or fogging or both, then the various readings of temp and RH. I feel it would be useful for us to see what results we can achieve with various already exhibiting household setups. We can share and gleam ideas. Make suggestions for new people. What Andy can buy or have built, most pet keepers cannot, Tom posts lots of pix of his fantastic outdoor enclosures/hides, some members have posts elaborate, decorative houses, others are simple and a child can put it together. We can see what these various sets are producing in terms microclimates.
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Kelly, my instinctive response to reading your description is "Yes! That totally sounds right!"
Do you have a data logger that records these parameters?
If so, then your recordings for the different habitats, for the species you keep, would be absolutely invaluable. Have you already published this? If not, would you consider doing so?
My thoughts, though, are that your set-up is an ideal to be aspired to, but probably rarely imitated by many tortoise keepers for many reasons (even though it should be!)
I suspect a poll would reveal the majority of pet owners (as opposed to more dedicated keepers, if you know what I mean) who keep an indoor pet do use mulch, coir etc. and I think we need data on these "less ideal" things too. If only to explain why they are not suitable... I had no IDEA that alfalfa pellets caused that kind of dryness. I bet not many people do....!
So I think if any readers like Kelly have a data logger - do go for a really detailed study. It will have scientific credibility and should definitely be done.
But I also love Sandy's idea of a "forum data collection project" using just the simple tools most of us already have to hand. There is nothing as productive (and fun) as what's fashionably called "citizen science"..... and if enough people take part, what can be learned is usually every bit as valuable in practical terms as a fully "scientific" study.
I just checked my own little cheap humidity meters. They are digital, and do have max and min recording. OK maybe not brilliantly accurate but not too disastrous...
So anyone with one of these could do much better than Weisner and Iben LOL by recording at least once a day over a month or two, at substrate level, and re-setting the max-min each day!
Go for it guys!
oops! While I was writing that, Sandy beat me to it. And said, better than I did, what I wanted to say...
Do you have a data logger that records these parameters?
If so, then your recordings for the different habitats, for the species you keep, would be absolutely invaluable. Have you already published this? If not, would you consider doing so?
My thoughts, though, are that your set-up is an ideal to be aspired to, but probably rarely imitated by many tortoise keepers for many reasons (even though it should be!)
I suspect a poll would reveal the majority of pet owners (as opposed to more dedicated keepers, if you know what I mean) who keep an indoor pet do use mulch, coir etc. and I think we need data on these "less ideal" things too. If only to explain why they are not suitable... I had no IDEA that alfalfa pellets caused that kind of dryness. I bet not many people do....!
So I think if any readers like Kelly have a data logger - do go for a really detailed study. It will have scientific credibility and should definitely be done.
But I also love Sandy's idea of a "forum data collection project" using just the simple tools most of us already have to hand. There is nothing as productive (and fun) as what's fashionably called "citizen science"..... and if enough people take part, what can be learned is usually every bit as valuable in practical terms as a fully "scientific" study.
I just checked my own little cheap humidity meters. They are digital, and do have max and min recording. OK maybe not brilliantly accurate but not too disastrous...
So anyone with one of these could do much better than Weisner and Iben
LOL by recording at least once a day over a month or two, at substrate level, and re-setting the max-min each day! Go for it guys!
oops! While I was writing that, Sandy beat me to it. And said, better than I did, what I wanted to say...
Yes I use these they are couple hundred bucks for the ones I got. Some are cheaper but may not read as well or as many time frames you seek to use. I like to record hourly, so I can see the spikes and drops in temperatures. http://www.logtagrecorders.com/products/trex.htm. I have not published anything yet. I do have plenty of records though. One day I will publish it into a book (being worked on slowly). What I try to do is accomadate as close to the wild habitat as possible. Sometimes flora and substrates cannot be totally mimiced. But as close to being natural as possible to achieve similar results. Where it gets really tricky is elevations. I have not yet researched or tried to apply (in great detail) the elevation and exposure differences. For example a higher elevation in which a species is found is going to have a much greater pressure, and UV exposure, and different RH and temperature flucuations than that of a lower elevation species. Longitudinal and Latitudinal coordinates are cruciual too. So many species can be found within a certain range. But be exposed to a slightly different microclimate. Therefore creating a somewhat different method to keeping said species. Which is why its important to know the locale or country of which species you have. It is very difficult to find out for some people. But I feel is an important key element in providing the perfect care. Yes it seems a little over kill to many. But not to me. Most people think of a red foot as a red foot. When in reality you have 5 phylogenic different ones, and over 35 different locale specific ones all living in complete different environments and micro climates through out South America. Dry forests, wet forest, dry grasslands, wet grasslands, wet canopy forests, cloud forests, arid evergreen forests, etc... The same care can be provided in captivity for all these types and achieve an active eating, moving, reproducing specimen for sure. But how well do we know its life expectancy? How do we know it isnt unhealthy, and just surviving. After all tortoises are to achieve one main objective in their life. Survive. Survive is of course a loaded term. Reproduce, Eat, Germinate seeds, sleep, move, hide, and repeat day in and day out...Survive. But are we letting them live or are we letting these tortoise survive? They are program to adapt and survive. So How do we know what we are doing in captivity is within exemplary standards in comparison to their wild life.
Anyways blah blah blah. To me a lot more is needed in keepers research before applying the challenge of keeping a tortoise. In research terms, I mean dont google "tortoise keeping". Find the one your interested in and research everything about where they are from, what kind of plants they are exposed to, soil systems, annual rain, seasonal patterns, pressures, UV radiation logs, elevations in which they are found, rivers systems and what kinds of water in those rivers, PH of soils, PH of water, Ph of plants, etc....
Anyways blah blah blah. To me a lot more is needed in keepers research before applying the challenge of keeping a tortoise. In research terms, I mean dont google "tortoise keeping". Find the one your interested in and research everything about where they are from, what kind of plants they are exposed to, soil systems, annual rain, seasonal patterns, pressures, UV radiation logs, elevations in which they are found, rivers systems and what kinds of water in those rivers, PH of soils, PH of water, Ph of plants, etc....
Sulcata_Sandy said:
I sorta understood what you meant, Sandy. Didn't get the building web pages or telling Vets how to do their jobs part though. I am an average keeper/pet owner. I would never describe anyone as "stupid". Just not in my nature. Having advanced degrees myself (not in any medically related field) I am more inclined to show respect for a professional than some others would. The professionals that can talk to me in terms and language that I can understand are the ones that I will follow the advise of. The ones that talk over my head confuse me, making it hard to follow their advice. Fortunately I have a couple of good Vets that I work with. A reptile Vet that breeds leopards. A horse Doc that breeds race horses, a specialist for my birds, and a generalist for my cats, and a darn good mechanic for my 1963 Alfa Romeo Giulia 1600 Veloce. Now that's a different animal altogether. Think finding a qualified tortoise Vet is tough?
Not trying to throw a blanket on the experiment here. Andy's research, while exhaustive, really doesn't answer my day to day challenges of keeping a sulcata in Southern California. Although I do live in a semi-arid climate and my pet lives outdoors full time it is not his natural habitat. I can't imagine keeping one indoors (sulcata that is), well, for any any extended period. I can see where information obtained from the study you are proposing would be beneficial to hundreds of keepers that sulcata or leopards or any tortoise that is kept exclusively or mostly inside. I will certainly support the project and contribute what I can.Sulcata_Sandy said:
It is my belief that there have been some advances to both lighting and heating that will have bearing on how we keep our tortoises in the future. I would hate to see these overlooked because they are not in wide circulation at this point. I'll be looking forward to the start of this thread.
We've really gotten far afield from the original message of the thread, which is, "What is the physiology behind pyramiding?"
I'd hate to lose all this good info because someone looking for lighting or substrate or whatever, moves beyond this thread because of the subject title.
I'd like to suggest that someone start a new thread with the lighting, substrate, etc. that has branched off, and stick to the subject in this thread.
I'd hate to lose all this good info because someone looking for lighting or substrate or whatever, moves beyond this thread because of the subject title.
I'd like to suggest that someone start a new thread with the lighting, substrate, etc. that has branched off, and stick to the subject in this thread.
I agree Yvonne. I kinda steered it wrongly and added to it.
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Well Andy, I don't get it. I met you enough times to know how you are communicating here is not in any way shape or form how you communicate in person. But that is deja vu from the first time I read e-mails of you - written on a listserve some 20 or so years ago, then meeting you - but now still. Come on dude.
I'd still like to hear/read what your controlled conditions experiment would be to ascertain the nature pyramiding and how it relates to captive husbandry. Correlative or direct observation. That is the value from the W & I paper.
I popped that question out in response to your inquiry about the value of the W & I study, about page 15 of this protracted nothing new string on pyramiding.
Glad you are living near wild torts these days.
Peace out.
I'd still like to hear/read what your controlled conditions experiment would be to ascertain the nature pyramiding and how it relates to captive husbandry. Correlative or direct observation. That is the value from the W & I paper.
I popped that question out in response to your inquiry about the value of the W & I study, about page 15 of this protracted nothing new string on pyramiding.
Glad you are living near wild torts these days.
Peace out.
MyTortoise
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What Causes Pyramiding
This is quite a difficult topic because I can't seem to find a straight answer. Can someone give me a simple answer?
My little tortoise seems to have a bit of pyramiding so I want to prevent anymore in the future!
Thanks
This is quite a difficult topic because I can't seem to find a straight answer. Can someone give me a simple answer?
My little tortoise seems to have a bit of pyramiding so I want to prevent anymore in the future!
Thanks
RE: What Causes Pyramiding
There isn't a 'simple' answer. We've just had a very long and intensive thread about this subject, with debate between two very knowledgeable tortoise-keepers. If you type 'pyramiding' into the box up in the right corner of every page - the Google custom search box, you will have many, many threads where we've talked about this subject. Here's just one of them:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84819-page-2.html
There isn't a 'simple' answer. We've just had a very long and intensive thread about this subject, with debate between two very knowledgeable tortoise-keepers. If you type 'pyramiding' into the box up in the right corner of every page - the Google custom search box, you will have many, many threads where we've talked about this subject. Here's just one of them:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84819-page-2.html
RE: What Causes Pyramiding
lol...so, I am simply going to offer up a suggestion for you to go to the search bar here on the forum and enter one word "pyramiding" and you will have a gazillion reference points
lol...so, I am simply going to offer up a suggestion for you to go to the search bar here on the forum and enter one word "pyramiding" and you will have a gazillion reference points
RE: What Causes Pyramiding
Simple answer - being kept too dry.
Simple answer - being kept too dry.
RE: What Causes Pyramiding
lol...see, and here we go....kinda like asking about brumation...
I am game....some will say not high enough humidity on a constant basis...while I do agree that a tortoise should have access to a warm humid hide/area...I also am a firm believer that alone is not the entire answer...diet, exercise and that wonderful bit shiny ball in the sky and the uv rays it offers is, to me, just as important....
next
lol...see, and here we go....kinda like asking about brumation...
I am game....some will say not high enough humidity on a constant basis...while I do agree that a tortoise should have access to a warm humid hide/area...I also am a firm believer that alone is not the entire answer...diet, exercise and that wonderful bit shiny ball in the sky and the uv rays it offers is, to me, just as important....
next
RE: What Causes Pyramiding
Pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. We all agreed on that one. How much influence all the other factors like diet, UV, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc., is very debatable.
Pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. We all agreed on that one. How much influence all the other factors like diet, UV, growth rate, exercise, stress, calcium, dietary fiber, etc., is very debatable.
RE: What Causes Pyramiding
Humidity, hydration, exercise, proper diet, natural sunlight are your key factors.
Humidity, hydration, exercise, proper diet, natural sunlight are your key factors.
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