- Joined
- Dec 17, 2013
- Messages
- 34
Hmm...
I agree with Team Gomberg, I don't think anyone here is deliberately promoting high growth rates, i.e., recommending "power feeding" or whatever. And I hardly think that anyone is promoting "intentionally growing them slower by starving them, dehydrating them, and keeping them cold and dark throughout the year", either. That is an insulting insinuation.
I think Tom has summed up his position rather well in one of his last couple of posts, when he said:
Now there is a certain logic to this. Dealing with a problem by alleviating its symptoms does not mean you have solved the problem; but you have put "sticking plaster over the wound" and it's often the best we can do. I think Tom is acknowledging this, and he is presenting us with what he has found to be good "sticking plaster" for certain problems with growing Sulcatas....
The honest truth is that there is no way that we can ever completely remove the problems inherent in keeping a species in an environment it has not evolved to live in. The animal is "not meant to live here".
We can only (a) decide that it is wrong to keep an animal outside of its natural habitat (which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion) or (b) work towards finding the best alternative environment that the animal can cope with, and which is within the owner's capabilities and resources.
(b) will inevitably mean applying sticking plaster over a certain number of as-yet unsolved, and possibly insoluble problems.
I think Testudoresearch is right that there are going to be long-term health issues which are not at all obvious in the first decades, maybe the first half-century of life, when animals are taken out of the environment they evolved to inhabit, and so many factors are altered.
To take an example I am more familiar with: Can you think of a way of providing an indoor pet reptile in a vivarium with a "sun" that rises, moves across the sky and sets at a slightly different time each day, changing its UV and visible spectrum and creating polarisation patterns in the sky as it does so? And if you could, would you refuse to sell any reptile to anyone who can't afford the "solar simulator"?
But reptiles, like many other animals, use the sun to set their circadian and circannual rhythms, which govern all their neurological and endocrine pathways.. seasonal changes, activity levels, and basking behaviour.... A tortoise that is living in artificial day/night cycles with no seasons, no rest periods, no real sunlight will not have normal physiology. It appears "normal" and seems perfectly "healthy" ... but will that abnormal physiology alter its susceptibility to stress, infection, metabolic disorders or cancer, in later life?
I don't know. But I know that there's a huge burden of disease in humans that's increasingly being ascribed to our "civilised" way of life, far from the outdoor lifestyle of our ancestors, who were tied to day/night cycles and seasonal unprocessed foods. We all seem "healthy" but our circadian rhythms are messed up, there is a pandemic of vitamin D deficiency, and in later life there's a huge and ever-growing number of people developing seasonal affective disorder, auto-immune diseases, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, cancers....
Fortunately, the animals we choose to keep are some of the most resilient creatures on the planet, surviving in some of the most inhospitable places on earth. I think this is why somehow so many survive the most inexpert care... and why those people who do offer their animals expert care, care a great deal about them, like Tom and Testudoresearch, who I suspect have very different opinions regarding my (a) and/or (b)....
But I digress. The topic was "food and growth rates"...
Free unlimited access to food throughout early life is inevitably going to increase growth rates over those which a perfectly healthy youngster in its own habitat, in the best of years, would achieve, even without parasites, predators etc. It is a technique used in "headstarting" re-population programs worldwide, for rearing baby reptiles of highly endangered species so that they will be big enough to have a better chance of survival than wild babies would have done, at the time of release.
And finely powdered meal is highly digestible compared to coarse fibrous pellets and the even coarser Pro Alpin or whatever. So that will also increase growth rates. If it contains cereals then there will be starches and sugars, not found in wild diets, which are rapidly digested too.
So the type of food offered, and the period it is offered for, will "promote high growth rates" whether the owner knows and wants this, or not....
Frances
p.s. Has anyone looked at the X-ray of Sulcata Sandy's tortoise, in the last post on the previous page?
I agree with Team Gomberg, I don't think anyone here is deliberately promoting high growth rates, i.e., recommending "power feeding" or whatever. And I hardly think that anyone is promoting "intentionally growing them slower by starving them, dehydrating them, and keeping them cold and dark throughout the year", either. That is an insulting insinuation.
I think Tom has summed up his position rather well in one of his last couple of posts, when he said:
Using "un-natural" captive techniques to counter "un-natural" captive shortcomings makes perfect sense, AND it works very well if done correctly. ....... the desiccating heating elements that do not exist in the wild, .... are necessary in our captive indoor environments. So yes, I do offer a humid hide with higher humidity than what my russian tortoises are likely to encounter in the wild every day. I do it because I also offer them a desiccating light bulb to warm up under when they are indoors, which they would also not encounter in the wild.
Now there is a certain logic to this. Dealing with a problem by alleviating its symptoms does not mean you have solved the problem; but you have put "sticking plaster over the wound" and it's often the best we can do. I think Tom is acknowledging this, and he is presenting us with what he has found to be good "sticking plaster" for certain problems with growing Sulcatas....
The honest truth is that there is no way that we can ever completely remove the problems inherent in keeping a species in an environment it has not evolved to live in. The animal is "not meant to live here".
We can only (a) decide that it is wrong to keep an animal outside of its natural habitat (which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion) or (b) work towards finding the best alternative environment that the animal can cope with, and which is within the owner's capabilities and resources.
(b) will inevitably mean applying sticking plaster over a certain number of as-yet unsolved, and possibly insoluble problems.
I think Testudoresearch is right that there are going to be long-term health issues which are not at all obvious in the first decades, maybe the first half-century of life, when animals are taken out of the environment they evolved to inhabit, and so many factors are altered.
To take an example I am more familiar with: Can you think of a way of providing an indoor pet reptile in a vivarium with a "sun" that rises, moves across the sky and sets at a slightly different time each day, changing its UV and visible spectrum and creating polarisation patterns in the sky as it does so? And if you could, would you refuse to sell any reptile to anyone who can't afford the "solar simulator"?
But reptiles, like many other animals, use the sun to set their circadian and circannual rhythms, which govern all their neurological and endocrine pathways.. seasonal changes, activity levels, and basking behaviour.... A tortoise that is living in artificial day/night cycles with no seasons, no rest periods, no real sunlight will not have normal physiology. It appears "normal" and seems perfectly "healthy" ... but will that abnormal physiology alter its susceptibility to stress, infection, metabolic disorders or cancer, in later life?
I don't know. But I know that there's a huge burden of disease in humans that's increasingly being ascribed to our "civilised" way of life, far from the outdoor lifestyle of our ancestors, who were tied to day/night cycles and seasonal unprocessed foods. We all seem "healthy" but our circadian rhythms are messed up, there is a pandemic of vitamin D deficiency, and in later life there's a huge and ever-growing number of people developing seasonal affective disorder, auto-immune diseases, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, cancers....
Fortunately, the animals we choose to keep are some of the most resilient creatures on the planet, surviving in some of the most inhospitable places on earth. I think this is why somehow so many survive the most inexpert care... and why those people who do offer their animals expert care, care a great deal about them, like Tom and Testudoresearch, who I suspect have very different opinions regarding my (a) and/or (b)....
But I digress. The topic was "food and growth rates"...
Free unlimited access to food throughout early life is inevitably going to increase growth rates over those which a perfectly healthy youngster in its own habitat, in the best of years, would achieve, even without parasites, predators etc. It is a technique used in "headstarting" re-population programs worldwide, for rearing baby reptiles of highly endangered species so that they will be big enough to have a better chance of survival than wild babies would have done, at the time of release.
And finely powdered meal is highly digestible compared to coarse fibrous pellets and the even coarser Pro Alpin or whatever. So that will also increase growth rates. If it contains cereals then there will be starches and sugars, not found in wild diets, which are rapidly digested too.
So the type of food offered, and the period it is offered for, will "promote high growth rates" whether the owner knows and wants this, or not....
Frances
p.s. Has anyone looked at the X-ray of Sulcata Sandy's tortoise, in the last post on the previous page?