I don't tell people how to raise Greek tortoises. Know why? I don't have enough experience. I've never raised a single one from hatchling to adult using any method. Sure I can answer basic question about them, but you will not see a Greek care sheet or humidity recommendation from me.
Likewise, Andy does not have enough sulcata or leopard experience to know what he is talking about. He is guilty of everything that he is accusing everyone else of. He dismisses or ignores evidence that does not support his preconceived notions and latches on to anything that does support them. He praises an author who has been criticized for lack of scientific data, citing decades of personal experience in its place, yet condemns others who do the same thing. He has never examined one single tortoise raised the way I raise them. He has no evidence whatsoever to back up any of his preposterous claims, so he keeps going back to what he does know better than anyone here, including me. He has used a hygrometer in some parts of the leopard range. I have not. I have, however raised hundreds of leopards and sulcatas in captive conditions and HE has not. If he had, then he would know, as I do, what will happen if you raise a sulcata hatchling on dry sandy soil, with 40% humidity. When I want to know how to raise a Greek tortoise in a naturalistic outdoor enclosure in or near their native range, I think Andy would be a great source of info. His apparent success speaks for itself. If you want to raise a smooth healthy sulcata, I would not ask him how to do it, since he has no idea.
Further, no one is claiming that any wild species lives in super high humidity 24/7/365. But it IS that high some of the time for leopards, and a lot of the time for sulcatas during the rainy season. I mlived through many miserable South African days with temps in the 90s and humidity over 90%. we had to keep hosing the dogs off to prevent heat stroke. Keep in mind that all this debate is about a 10% difference in recommended humidity. I recommend 80% based on my experience with sulcatas and leopards, and Andy has stated he recommends as high as 70%. Time has shown again and again what our attempts to replicate wild sulcata and leopard habitats will achieve. The last five years has demonstrated what a little hydration and humidity will achieve.
When someone can show me a dozen smooth sulcata hatchlings raised at 40% humidity on dry substrate with no humid hide, and actually discuss the details without throwing a hissy fit and quitting the debate, then that someone will have some credibility. I HAVE raised them that dry, so I DO know what will happen and what I'm talking about. Furthermore, that same someone ought to try raising them my way at least once so they will have at least SOME basis in fact and personal experience instead of posting fancy scientific articles about horse hooves in an effort to dodge the fact that he has never even raised a tortoise in the way he decries.
Another point to this discussion: Even in their native range, raising sulcatas dry in large captive environments is problematic. Tomas told me of the troubles they had when they first started their breeding programs and started rearing their hatchlings. He listed several problems that they were experiencing, and all those issues disappeared when they began irrigating the enclosures.
Like everyone else who has tried to argue this with me in the past, we are talking about apples and oranges. I'm not saying a Greek tortoise can't be raised smooth and healthy with lower humidity. I don't know if they can or can't. I've never done it either way. I HAVE however done it BOTH ways with lots of sulcatas and leopards, and so I feel pretty comfortable making a recommendation or two about them.
Likewise, Andy does not have enough sulcata or leopard experience to know what he is talking about. He is guilty of everything that he is accusing everyone else of. He dismisses or ignores evidence that does not support his preconceived notions and latches on to anything that does support them. He praises an author who has been criticized for lack of scientific data, citing decades of personal experience in its place, yet condemns others who do the same thing. He has never examined one single tortoise raised the way I raise them. He has no evidence whatsoever to back up any of his preposterous claims, so he keeps going back to what he does know better than anyone here, including me. He has used a hygrometer in some parts of the leopard range. I have not. I have, however raised hundreds of leopards and sulcatas in captive conditions and HE has not. If he had, then he would know, as I do, what will happen if you raise a sulcata hatchling on dry sandy soil, with 40% humidity. When I want to know how to raise a Greek tortoise in a naturalistic outdoor enclosure in or near their native range, I think Andy would be a great source of info. His apparent success speaks for itself. If you want to raise a smooth healthy sulcata, I would not ask him how to do it, since he has no idea.
Further, no one is claiming that any wild species lives in super high humidity 24/7/365. But it IS that high some of the time for leopards, and a lot of the time for sulcatas during the rainy season. I mlived through many miserable South African days with temps in the 90s and humidity over 90%. we had to keep hosing the dogs off to prevent heat stroke. Keep in mind that all this debate is about a 10% difference in recommended humidity. I recommend 80% based on my experience with sulcatas and leopards, and Andy has stated he recommends as high as 70%. Time has shown again and again what our attempts to replicate wild sulcata and leopard habitats will achieve. The last five years has demonstrated what a little hydration and humidity will achieve.
When someone can show me a dozen smooth sulcata hatchlings raised at 40% humidity on dry substrate with no humid hide, and actually discuss the details without throwing a hissy fit and quitting the debate, then that someone will have some credibility. I HAVE raised them that dry, so I DO know what will happen and what I'm talking about. Furthermore, that same someone ought to try raising them my way at least once so they will have at least SOME basis in fact and personal experience instead of posting fancy scientific articles about horse hooves in an effort to dodge the fact that he has never even raised a tortoise in the way he decries.
Another point to this discussion: Even in their native range, raising sulcatas dry in large captive environments is problematic. Tomas told me of the troubles they had when they first started their breeding programs and started rearing their hatchlings. He listed several problems that they were experiencing, and all those issues disappeared when they began irrigating the enclosures.
Like everyone else who has tried to argue this with me in the past, we are talking about apples and oranges. I'm not saying a Greek tortoise can't be raised smooth and healthy with lower humidity. I don't know if they can or can't. I've never done it either way. I HAVE however done it BOTH ways with lots of sulcatas and leopards, and so I feel pretty comfortable making a recommendation or two about them.
hosphorus ratio of approximately 7.4:1 and the calcium constituted 2.4 per cent of the dry matter; it contained 20.7 per cent protein, 5.2 per cent fat and 45.6 per cent crude fiber. The result showed that none of the tortoises became ill or died during the study, and no significance signs of disease were observed and the results of the blood biochemical analyses and hematological profiles were within reference ranges reported previously. The author found that the concentrations of 25-HCC measured in his study were comparable to those previously reported in tortoises housed indoors (Ullrey and Bernard). The author also stated that the use of artificial UVB sources should be considered when tortoises are kept at higher latitudes, if it is found that the concentrations of 25-HCC in wild tortoises are similar to those of lizards. Eatwell's referneces did not show us the data that of wild tortoises but the lizards. Maybe the tortoises in England only need high calcium diets instead of artificial UVB to maintain their health if they are exposed to unfiltered sunlight during the summer months. I don't know. 
