What To Do About Pics Of Inappropriate Tortoise Practices?

[bouaboua]

How you like this??



The title of the thread is "Happy feast"......From a tortoise forum in China. Tom will pull all his hair out if he ever visit that forum. Many new comer post this kind of thread/photo on that forum.

I always say something, but with a sandwich that I have my criticism between something nice.

 

[terryo]

That are a few forums that I go on and as I read some posts, I sit there with my mouth open. The usual comments...Oh how cute...very nice...etc., but no help given to someone who is doing things most of us would cringe at. I never say anything, as they are not nice if you do. I found out the hard way.

 

[Bogie=babyDINO]

Really. Wow. I guess let everyone do what ever they want. Nothing seems to be bad for tortoises.
Sure hope too many newbs don't read this thread.

Mmm well to be honest I think the word "wrong" gets people all in a tiff. Maybe that why they wrote this. But when explained it's not a great idea because of accidents, mistakes, and what is not healthy for the tort's body then maybe people will take less offense. To call them "the tortoise police" is kinda rude. When I see a well known member with years of experience get mad, agitated, forceful, I think well they are acting this way because they have seen tortoises died! They are trying to save torts! That way they are acting this way because they are trying to help!

 

[Prairie Mom]

How you like this??

View attachment 151354 View attachment 151355

The title of the thread is "Happy feast"......From a tortoise forum in China. Tom will pull all his hair out if he ever visit that forum. Many new comer post this kind of thread/photo on that forum.

I always say something, but with a sandwich that I have my criticism between something nice.

WOOOOOOW!!! You couldn't have picked a better example for this thread!!! Nice one!WOOOOOWWWWW!!!

 

[Tom]

Why do you do these things that you seemingly acknowledge are 'wrong'? Perhaps you've realized that they are not? The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe? What concerns me the most; that members are unwilling to share because their practices aren't approved by the tortoise police.

Let me ask you something. Have you ever had your entire collection of tortoises die off because of a disease outbreak? This ever happen to anyone you are close to?

What experience are you drawing from to decide what level of risk any of these thing pose?

Do you have tortoises? How many? What species? I can't recall you ever mentioning your own tortoise collection or what practices you do or don't engage in. In fact, the ratio of your criticizing negative posts to helpful positive posts is pretty abhorrent. Are you here to help and enjoy tortoise talk, or is your purpose here to criticize, be negative and attempt to discredit others?

These questions are not rhetorical.

 

[Prairie Mom]

I'm going to throw in one of my own threads to add into this really interesting discussion. I think this follows into the category of concern that is being discussed here...
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/a-stroller-ride-to-the-park.120701/ it's still open if you want to comment on it.

I think I understand a bit of what Jaizei is saying, because I do want this forum to be a place where members feel like they can freely share. I was saddened when Mike suggested he may censor his pics a bit more often.

My thread definitely has some hazards (that I was already aware of because of good comments on other threads!) and I feel like my own thread was handled really nicely. @wellington put a disclaimer for everyone to read about the dangers of treated grass, which I feel was very necessary and appropriate, but she was also nice about it. (I love Team Gomberg's examples) I responded and mentioned what I was doing to try to reduce the hazard (bringing my own weeds & cleaning my tortoise at home).

Teachers have asked me to bring the tortoise back to the picnic again this year. I intend to do it again and will probably post more photos. We're also raising our tortoise a bit differently than I often see on the forum. She travels with us often and we do take her to family outtings in natural places with us. No, she's not a dog, but I do feel like she is gaining from her experiences with us and we certainly love having her with us.

My feelings about raising my tortoise are definitely different than many other posters I see. I enjoy sharing my experiences on the forum and I know that I could be up for some scrutiny as well.

-Should I shy away from sharing my experiences? Is it considered more appropriate if I add my own disclaimer of what safety concerns I've learned on the forum?

-When anyone responds to my debatable photos, I would appreciate it done in the manner that Team Gomberg, boua boua, and Bogie Babydino suggest, and the example that Wellington has always given me. Slow down and be tactful, and maybe throw out something nice along the way, particularly if no other posters have done it.

I think a few bulldogs are helpful and necessary as long as there are friendly smiles too.

 

[Prairie Mom]

Now, this very helpful and interesting thread has given me courage to post some info on a photo I've observed recently. I'm off to try to do some good!

 

[Tom]

How you like this??
The title of the thread is "Happy feast"......From a tortoise forum in China. Tom will pull all his hair out if he ever visit that forum. Many new comer post this kind of thread/photo on that forum.

I always say something, but with a sandwich that I have my criticism between something nice.

I get a lot of PMs asking question and needing help. I can't even count all the members from Asian countries that contact me wondering why their tortoise is sick, or dead, or not eating anymore. Frequently, we will go over all the basics and everything about the enclosure, heating and lighting seems okay, then I find out that the sick leopard lives in an enclosure with a RF, a radiated and two sulcatas… or something similar. I've seen this soooooo any times and its one of the many things that "color" my opinions on these matters. Of course there is no practical way for me to 100% confirm that disease transmission from foreign species is the COD in these cases, but when all else is good and done correctly, even Jaizei would have to admit that it is a likely cause of the issue at hand.

 

[Prairie Mom]

Now, this very helpful and interesting thread has given me courage to post some info on a photo I've observed recently. I'm off to try to do some good!

Alright...I made two posts. I think I was nice and helpful. Feelin' Good!

 

[jaizei]

Let me ask you something. Have you ever had your entire collection of tortoises die off because of a disease outbreak? This ever happen to anyone you are close to?

What experience are you drawing from to decide what level of risk any of these thing pose?

Do you have tortoises? How many? What species? I can't recall you ever mentioning your own tortoise collection or what practices you do or don't engage in. In fact, the ratio of your criticizing negative posts to helpful positive posts is pretty abhorrent. Are you here to help and enjoy tortoise talk, or is your purpose here to criticize, be negative and attempt to discredit others?

These questions are not rhetorical.

We see what we want to see.


I'm can't play with you anymore because you always run crying to 'mom'.

 

[Careym13]

I'm going to throw in one of my own threads to add into this really interesting discussion. I think this follows into the category of concern that is being discussed here...
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/a-stroller-ride-to-the-park.120701/ it's still open if you want to comment on it.

I think I understand a bit of what Jaizei is saying, because I do want this forum to be a place where members feel like they can freely share. I was saddened when Mike suggested he may censor his pics a bit more often.

My thread definitely has some hazards (that I was already aware of because of good comments on other threads!) and I feel like my own thread was handled really nicely. @wellington put a disclaimer for everyone to read about the dangers of treated grass, which I feel was very necessary and appropriate, but she was also nice about it. (I love Team Gomberg's examples) I responded and mentioned what I was doing to try to reduce the hazard (bringing my own weeds & cleaning my tortoise at home).

Teachers have asked me to bring the tortoise back to the picnic again this year. I intend to do it again and will probably post more photos. We're also raising our tortoise a bit differently than I often see on the forum. She travels with us often and we do take her to family outtings in natural places with us. No, she's not a dog, but I do feel like she is gaining from her experiences with us and we certainly love having her with us.

My feelings about raising my tortoise are definitely different than many other posters I see. I enjoy sharing my experiences on the forum and I know that I could be up for some scrutiny as well.

-Should I shy away from sharing my experiences? Is it considered more appropriate if I add my own disclaimer of what safety concerns I've learned on the forum?

-When anyone responds to my debatable photos, I would appreciate it done in the manner that Team Gomberg, boua boua, and Bogie Babydino suggest, and the example that Wellington has always given me. Slow down and be tactful, and maybe throw out something nice along the way, particularly if no other posters have done it.

I think a few bulldogs are helpful and necessary as long as there are friendly smiles too.

I don't think you should have to shy away from sharing your experiences (nor would I want you to ). I think some photos, even if they do deviate from what is considered an acceptable practice, can still be educational and enlightening. I've seen several people post "controversial" photos, but they accompany it with some sort of an explanation. I don't know if its fair to say that every person who posts a photo of their tortoise with their dog should have to justify it or offer an explanation, but at least when people do choose to post such photos if they follow it up by saying "I know this isn't usually a good idea, but.....or, this was just staged for a photo, blah blah", at least everyone else knows that they are already aware of the dangers presented in the photo. At the end of the day, no one here can stop another person from taking risks with their tortoise...all we can do is try. But what is a risk to some may not be to others. The debate goes on

 

[Tom]

We see what we want to see.

Are you implying that I should just imagine what tortoises you have or what you do? That doesn't seem very useful. Is it a surprise to you that I don't know what species you keep or what your tortoises look like? Have you posted lots of pics and details and I have somehow missed them all over the years? Since you are the undisputed KING of finding old threads and info, may I respectfully request a link to any old threads you may have done that show pics of your tortoises and or, how you care for them and house them?

 

[Tom]

I'm can't play with you anymore because you always run crying to 'mom'.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Who is mom? When have I tattled or asked for help in dealing with you? I've certainly complained about your negative attitude, snide remarks and lack of helpfulness, but that has been on the open forum in full public view and it is usually deleted pretty quick.

You have no shortage of negative things to say, but have you anything positive to add to this discussion? Do you think feeding lots of fruit to sulcatas is a good idea? How about roaming the floor in someone's house? Is it totally safe to mix species however we see fit? Really what is your point of contention here? Above you asked Mike if he thought "The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe?" What do YOU think the risk is?

 

[N2TORTS]

Tom....what's your opinion on keeping different dog species together?

and if so why?

 

[Tom]

Tom....what's your opinion on keeping different dog species together?

and if so why?

It is my opinion that species should not be mixed. There is a high probability of disease transmission from asymptomatic carriers of either species, and there are often behavior incompatibilities too.

I have this opinion based on first hand personal experience with handling diseases and behavioral issues in tortoises to include my own past mistakes, decades of working closely with many veterinary professionals, decades of observing what happens with the collections of tortoise keeping friends and acquaintances, and the direct advice of multiple veterinarians who specialize in reptiles that I am fortunate to call my friends. I have also been a career professional working with exotic animals of many species since 1986.

How about you JD? What is your opinion?

 

[Yvonne G]

Jeff; Dogs are all the same species, unlike tortoises. All dogs are the canine species. So go ahead and keep your collie with your german shepherd. Both are canine.

Tortoises are different species and sub species, so you're talking apples and oranges.

 

[Tom]

Jeff; Dogs are all the same species, unlike tortoises. All dogs are the canine species. So go ahead and keep your collie with your german shepherd. Both are canine.

Tortoises are different species and sub species, so you're talking apples and oranges.

Hey! Maybe he was referring to dingoes, African wild dogs, and our domesticated canines?

I'm totally against mixing those species!

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't care what anyone says here in this thread. I'm going to continue to advise NEW tortoise-keepers against mixing species, allowing the tortoise free roaming throughout the house, letting the dog be with the tortoise, etc. NEW tortoise keepers don't have the experience to have thought these practices through.

More experienced keepers, like, for instance, Baoh and -E.J. have years of tortoise-keeping under their belts. They don't just arbitrarily buy a new tortoise and dump it in with the old tortoises. It might even be unconscious thought, but they weigh the experience then decide to do it or not. A more experienced keeper probably knows his animals have been de-wormed, or that they've lived on his property for a length of time and aren't harboring any disease, etc.

But a new keeper has none of this knowledge and it's our job to help them gain it.

 

[Elohi]

This is what I've done...

Instead of right away advising them on what is wrong and what they should do instead, I ask them a question about it.

"Cool, tortoise and pretty dog. Do they often spend time together our do they live separately?"

"Strawberries, yummy! How often does Shelley enjoy those treats?"

"Wow, what a lot of tortoises! Do the Russians always eat their meals with the leopards?"

You get the point...

This gives them the benefit of the doubt and allows them to clear it up. If they were unaware, this introduces the opportunity to offer them advice without becoming so defensive.

I feel it's a polite way to bring up an issue, in text, with a stranger on social media.

I think of 1 case where a knowledgeable keeper posted a photo of his newly rescued redfoot enjoying a mud soak. No one knew that of course but it was later brought up after his photo was attacked. The members were well meaning and wanted to help but the approach was so rough he left. I don't remember specifics but it was strong enough that I remember enough!

Anyway. My opinion is to ask a question first. This forum already has a bit of a reputation for harsh criticism. Maybe questions first could change that. ?

Precisely why I think you would make an excellent mod.

 

[SteveW]

Interesting thread. As a sideline participant, it often appears to me that the TFO regulars/pretend chatters/socializers (I'm not knocking it, just not my scene) don't always realize that there is more than just TFO vs the Petco refugees in the hobby, and not everyone with knowledge/experience agrees with the TFO standard of care.
Here's an example; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth.

Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.
I think I might have some things to share of interest on, say, microclimates. I've not shared previously because I don't need 20 people telling me to read Toms threads. I've read them and appreciate them, but that doesn't end the discussion, at least not for me. So anyway, to provide at least one additional answer to the original question, if you have first hand knowledge, solid reasoning, or a source you can point to, then drop some knowledge and don't worry so much about diplomacy. If you don't have those things, then all the diplomacy in the world doesn't change the fact that you are just the first to arrive from the bandwagon.
And now I await your diplomatic replies