What To Do About Pics Of Inappropriate Tortoise Practices?

[Tom]

All opinion and discussion is welcome here. What do you guys do when you see this sort of thing?

REMINDER:
The above quote is the end of post number 1 of this thread.

I think all of this discussion is fantastic. I'm thankful for all points of view expressed here, and thankful for everyone who has taken the time to comment.

If I didn't care about others, I would have no dilemma regarding this subject, and no need for this thread. The opinions expressed here have the potential to make me a better person, and also to help our forum be even better. This is what I'm most thankful for.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I just wanted to help bring us back to the title of this thread…

 

[Tom]

Interesting thread. As a sideline participant, it often appears to me that the TFO regulars/pretend chatters/socializers (I'm not knocking it, just not my scene) don't always realize that there is more than just TFO vs the Petco refugees in the hobby, and not everyone with knowledge/experience agrees with the TFO standard of care.
Here's an example; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth.

Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.
I think I might have some things to share of interest on, say, microclimates. I've not shared previously because I don't need 20 people telling me to read Toms threads. I've read them and appreciate them, but that doesn't end the discussion, at least not for me. So anyway, to provide at least one additional answer to the original question, if you have first hand knowledge, solid reasoning, or a source you can point to, then drop some knowledge and don't worry so much about diplomacy. If you don't have those things, then all the diplomacy in the world doesn't change the fact that you are just the first to arrive from the bandwagon.
And now I await your diplomatic replies

Where have you been hiding lurker man? You've got some good info to share here.

Here is the problem: Many people come to this site and make all sorts of assertions and do nothing to back up where those assertions came from, or why they think the things they think. I, on the other hand, have provided years and years of hard cold facts. Proof. People all over the world have duplicated my set ups and gotten the same positive results. One of the many things I've been accused of is that I think MY way is the ONLY way. This is total non-sense, but that is the accusation. If that accusation were true, why would I continue experimenting and trying to learn new things year after year? Why would I want you to explain in detail what YOUR methods of success have been?

When I started here on this forum a few years back I came in talking about all this same stuff with humidity and hydration. Some of the "regulars" jumped me pretty hard. I got some really nasty PMs. I persevered because I knew I was right and I knew they were wrong and I was determined to show them. After months of arguing I decided to "Put up or shut up" and asked the same of my "opponents". I started three new hatchlings "MY" way and asked them to do the same, so that we could compare results every so often for months or years to come. If I was wrong, then their predictions would come true and I would like like the total idiot that they thought I was. If THEY were wrong… well. You know… This is where the "End of Pyramiding" thread came from, and it is still going strong 5 years later. None of my opponents chose to take me up on my offer, but many of them got real quiet and left when the sky didn't fall as they strongly asserted it would. I'm very sad that they left just because some young upstart hd something new to teach them. Many of those guys open their minds and learned a little something. They tested my theories and methods for themselves and found something useful and worthwhile.

I'm asking you to do the same thing that I did. I don't care how anyone is achieving success, I want to know all about it. I want to LEARN from YOUR experience. Start a thread. Explain the techniques. Show your success. I will happily go toe to toe with anyone that want to hassle ANY PERSON that is demonstrating a new, novel successful way to care for tortoises.

And by the way, I also use glass tanks, I also don't rub oil on their shells, but I do feed some Mazuri from time to time… My point is that you aren't so far off base from the "regulars" as you might think.

I can't speak for everyone, but my mind is wide open. Teach me. SHow me what worked and how you did it. Convince me with lots of evidence and lots of similar cases. Please.

One last thing: Have you read my threads???

 

[leigti]

@SteveW you haven't researched enough on the site to realize that not everybody thinks the same way. Not everybody does things the same way. Everybody's situation is different. You sound like you were being some sort of rebel raising your tortoise the way you are. But you're not. Many people do the same exact thing you do and do just fine. Many people do things totally different and do just fine. The information given on this for him is all given with good intentions. But you still have to tweak it to fit your exact situation.
For instance, when I upgraded and enclosure I followed a bunch of specific recommendations for lighting and heating etc. None of them worked well enough. So I had to take a combination of the suggestions until I found what worked. That doesn't mean I badmouth the people who gave me information that didn't work, or thought other people were absolute tortoise gods for giving information that was closer to what works for me.
Read all you can, be open-minded, and figure out what works for you. But don't badmouth information that doesn't. Or the people that give it.

 

[leigti]

View attachment 151548View attachment 151549View attachment 151550
I just wanted to help bring us back to the title of this thread…

It is often recommended that you do not keep tortoises in pairs. thanks for a little tortoise porn just to bring us all back on track!

 

[Bogie=babyDINO]

Now, this very helpful and interesting thread has given me courage to post some info on a photo I've observed recently. I'm off to try to do some good!

I think you were very well spoken on this thread, Praire mom!

 

[SteveW]

Where have you been hiding lurker man? You've got some good info to share here.

Here is the problem: Many people come to this site and make all sorts of assertions and do nothing to back up where those assertions came from, or why they think the things they think. I, on the other hand, have provided years and years of hard cold facts. Proof. People all over the world have duplicated my set ups and gotten the same positive results. One of the many things I've been accused of is that I think MY way is the ONLY way. This is total non-sense, but that is the accusation. If that accusation were true, why would I continue experimenting and trying to learn new things year after year? Why would I want you to explain in detail what YOUR methods of success have been?

When I started here on this forum a few years back I came in talking about all this same stuff with humidity and hydration. Some of the "regulars" jumped me pretty hard. I got some really nasty PMs. I persevered because I knew I was right and I knew they were wrong and I was determined to show them. After months of arguing I decided to "Put up or shut up" and asked the same of my "opponents". I started three new hatchlings "MY" way and asked them to do the same, so that we could compare results every so often for months or years to come. If I was wrong, then their predictions would come true and I would like like the total idiot that they thought I was. If THEY were wrong… well. You know… This is where the "End of Pyramiding" thread came from, and it is still going strong 5 years later. None of my opponents chose to take me up on my offer, but many of them got real quiet and left when the sky didn't fall as they strongly asserted it would. I'm very sad that they left just because some young upstart hd something new to teach them. Many of those guys open their minds and learned a little something. They tested my theories and methods for themselves and found something useful and worthwhile.

I'm asking you to do the same thing that I did. I don't care how anyone is achieving success, I want to know all about it. I want to LEARN from YOUR experience. Start a thread. Explain the techniques. Show your success. I will happily go toe to toe with anyone that want to hassle ANY PERSON that is demonstrating a new, novel successful way to care for tortoises.

And by the way, I also use glass tanks, I also don't rub oil on their shells, but I do feed some Mazuri from time to time… My point is that you aren't so far off base from the "regulars" as you might think.

I can't speak for everyone, but my mind is wide open. Teach me. SHow me what worked and how you did it. Convince me with lots of evidence and lots of similar cases. Please.

One last thing: Have you read my threads???

I'm sorry, which threads are you referring to?

I'll put together a thread and show you what I'm up to, but I can offer no revolution. I too stress hydration, I just approach a little differently. So you and I are clear, I wasn't making assertions about my methods or taking shots at your methods. Furthermore, this is my first leopard and going on 6 months. She's off to a good start but miles away from proving anything. More of a proof of concept than a case study.
What pulled me in from the lurking fringe was not some amazing insight, but your question about how to address the sometimes appalling ignorance or misguided care that some folks post. My point was (is) that bandwagoneers do more harm than good. By offering no insights beyond 'I know somebody that says that's wrong', particularly en mass the real message convened is 'you're not in the cool crowd'. I submit my experience as exhibit A. As you noted, I provided no differences that are really substantial. However, I've had my motivation, experience, and attitude questioned and in a fit of irony been called argumentative. If I really fit any of those descriptions I'd be gone already and if I was new to this tortoise world, I'd be running right back to petco for advice. Hence my suggestion that alternative methods be employed.
I'm hoping this all sounds like constructive criticism and not a lecture.

 

[Tom]

I just wanted to help bring us back to the title of this thread…

I'm sorry Ken. I just don't see any inappropriate tortoise pics here…

Unless of course your poor unfortunate tortoises are all living as pairs. If that is the case then I will try out Steven's technique on you:


You have nice grassy enclosures.
Tortoises should not be kept in pairs!
Your pancakes have lovely color and patterning.


Okay Ken. How did that make you feel?

 

[SteveW]

@SteveW you haven't researched enough on the site to realize that not everybody thinks the same way. Not everybody does things the same way. Everybody's situation is different. You sound like you were being some sort of rebel raising your tortoise the way you are. But you're not. Many people do the same exact thing you do and do just fine. Many people do things totally different and do just fine. The information given on this for him is all given with good intentions. But you still have to tweak it to fit your exact situation.
For instance, when I upgraded and enclosure I followed a bunch of specific recommendations for lighting and heating etc. None of them worked well enough. So I had to take a combination of the suggestions until I found what worked. That doesn't mean I badmouth the people who gave me information that didn't work, or thought other people were absolute tortoise gods for giving information that was closer to what works for me.
Read all you can, be open-minded, and figure out what works for you. But don't badmouth information that doesn't. Or the people that give it.

I'm going to respectfully disagree on all counts. I've read extensively and it was that reading that informed my post. I have no illusions of rebellion just because I think for myself. Nor do I think everybody here thinks the same way. Lastly, I didn't bad mouth people or ideas, I just didn't agree with all of them. That's significantly different.

Ok, that's enough from me. Peace Out! (Drops mic)

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry, which threads are you referring to?

I'll put together a thread and show you what I'm up to, but I can offer no revolution. I too stress hydration, I just approach a little differently. So you and I are clear, I wasn't making assertions about my methods or taking shots at your methods. Furthermore, this is my first leopard and going on 6 months. She's off to a good start but miles away from proving anything. More of a proof of concept than a case study.
What pulled me in from the lurking fringe was not some amazing insight, but your question about how to address the sometimes appalling ignorance or misguided care that some folks post. My point was (is) that bandwagoneers do more harm than good. By offering no insights beyond 'I know somebody that says that's wrong', particularly en mass the real message convened is 'you're not in the cool crowd'. I submit my experience as exhibit A. As you noted, I provided no differences that are really substantial. However, I've had my motivation, experience, and attitude questioned and in a fit of irony been called argumentative. If I really fit any of those descriptions I'd be gone already and if I was new to this tortoise world, I'd be running right back to petco for advice. Hence my suggestion that alternative methods be employed.
I'm hoping this all sounds like constructive criticism and not a lecture.

Steve, You and I are crystal clear here. I made no assumptions, took no offense and jumped to no conclusions after reading your words. Your points are well thought out and worded very intelligently. I am receiving your messages in the way you intend them. Thank you for taking the time to repeatedly spell it out, even under the circumstances.

Even if you have only been using your methods for 6 months with one tortoise, the results from the one pic look pretty good, and I look forward to your thread explaining more. I promise not to link any of my threads on your thread, unless you ask for something specific.

 

[Bogie=babyDINO]

What a fun thread! So we love our tortoises, we talk about our tortoises, we argue about our tortoises and then we realize...we are all tortoises lovers and want the best for them! Lets all post more tortoise pics!!

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I'm sorry Ken. I just don't see any inappropriate tortoise pics here…

Unless of course your poor unfortunate tortoises are all living as pairs. If that is the case then I will try out Steven's technique on you:


You have nice grassy enclosures.
Tortoises should not be kept in pairs!
Your pancakes have lovely color and patterning.


Okay Ken. How did that make you feel?

Now I feel all warm inside! Thanks Tom !
It's dry in Oregon, but the land is less expensive than many USA locals...
Pancakes on newspaper isn't the best
Nice roomy outdoor ares for the sulcatas.

Now I even feel fuzzy as well as warm.

 

[Alaskamike]

I feel it is important to say how much I appreciate this thread ( thanks @Tom ) and the great thought and time people have put in here. It is questions like this that are honestly asked and honestly answered that greatly improve TFO.

Only a few forums I have visited have shown the level of maturity of TFO.

Some people can tell you to go to hell and in spite of yourself you'll be looking for a ticket and a train to get there - they say it so diplomatically and kindly. Others can even make a complement sound like an accusation and get our dander up

This is inevitable and understandable but it does not mean we can't all improve. I know I can.

The written word is more easily misunderstood than verbal communication. We can't see the person's expression , hear the tone in their voice or the smile on their face.

One caution I would make - and this is for those with great experience and a willingness to teach and inform. It is way too easy to become defensive when your hard earned education and information is not immediately taken as fact. Or embraced and acted upon without hesitation or question. Be patient. Back up assertion with experience . Don't ask them how many torts they have raised - or how long they've been in the hobby. - show yours.

Sometimes it is helpful if you talk about what YOU have done or would do in a similar situation rather than what THEY should do as a directive. This may sound obtuse but people tend to react better to a recount of personal experience than sentences that start with " You should ..."

On a lighter note I do like the photos of torts humping , always makes me smile , but I'm perverse that way

 

[Tom]

One caution I would make - and this is for those with great experience and a willingness to teach and inform. It is way too easy to become defensive when your hard earned education and information is not immediately taken as fact. Or embraced and acted upon without hesitation or question. Be patient. Back up assertion with experience . Don't ask them how many torts they have raised - or how long they've been in the hobby. - show yours.

I am guilty of this one on many occasions, but it is in no way a defensive mechanism. It has nothing to do with ego or me feeling threatened or disrespected in any way. I do it to point out to the person arguing with me, and anyone reading, that they don't have a leg to stand on. A very good example of this is our own Ascott. Love her. Think she's great, even if she is proud to constantly point out that I'm on her ignore list. In the past couple of years, she keeps jumping on to threads about how best to raise baby sulcatas or russians and she makes all sorts of well worded, informative sounding assertions about what is best for these species. We don't argue anymore because she has me on ignore, but when we did argue, I did ask her how many baby sulcatas she had raised. How many russian tortoises was she caring for in the manner she was prescribing. I wanted her and everyone reading to know that the answer to both questions was ZERO. Here you have someone with zero experience with the subject matter, zero experience with babies of any species, arguing with someone who lives with those species daily and has literally raised hundreds. My assertions were/are based on the hundreds of babies I have raised the way I'm saying to raise them. I know what works and what doesn't because I have done it many ways hundreds of times. My opponent in the argument knows what? Her guesses? Her feelings on the matter? Isn't it reasonable and pertinent to point out to the people reading that the person telling them how to best to care for their baby or their russian tortoise has NEVER even done what they are telling others to do?

Lets use a different, hypothetical example. Suppose Steve had come on to the forum and said that "Tom's methods are all wrong and baby sulcatas should never be raised that way…" Of course he did nothing of the sort. (Sorry Steve you were just fresh in my mind…) Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask what he based that upon? Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask how he knows what he is asserting? How many babies has he raised "Tom's way" to know that there is something wrong with the method? What way is he using that he has lots of experience with that works better?

I don't know Mike… Seems like if someone is going to make an authoritative suggestion on how a given tortoise of a given age should be housed, they ought to be able to easily back up the assertion with some explanation of their experience. Seems like experience level ought to be a relevant factor in a discussion of differing husbandry techniques. Someone with no experience arguing with me about how best to raise sulcata or leopard tortoises would be like me arguing with Aldabraman about how best to raise Aldabras. I would expect Aldabraman, when confronted with me telling people to do the opposite of what he knows is best to ask me, "Hey Tom. Exactly how many Aldabra babies have you hatched and raised in the manner you are telling people to use here?" Of course my answer would be "zero" and those reading would be able to make a more informed decision about how to care for their Aldabra baby. This doesn't mean I am stupid or that I don't have something to offer here. It just means I don't know jack about raising Aldabras, because I have never done it. I would not find Aldabraman's question to be insulting, a personal attack, confrontational or degrading in any way. When I ask this question it is to either demonstrate that the arguer has no idea what they are talking about, like in Ascott's case, or to learn what they have to offer from their first hand experience like in Steve's case with his one leopard and 6 months of success.

The problem I have with "just showing" mine is that an intelligent person like Ascott can make a compelling, convincing argument, while never having to show her own results, because there are none. I could convince people how I think Aldabras should be raised, couldn't I? Aldabraman could post all the pics he wanted, but some percentage of people would still be swayed by my baseless words and arguments, wouldn't they? This is what I wish to prevent with this line of questioning.

Thoughts?

 

[terryo]

Tom, when I was born, my Dad had box turtles (also tortoises, which I didn't know what they were at the time) and I've raised them all my life. That's more than 60 years of raising box turtles, but you will never see me argue with anyone. I always tell people "that's just how I do it". I've also posted many pictures on how I do it, but still say "it's not written in stone". I've only had 7 years, with great success raising Red foots, but again I always say ..just how I do it. Why? Because I don't believe there is a right or wrong way. We always have to take in consideration where people live and the climate...inside or outside, etc. I do notice a lot of people on other forums actually getting mad at some keepers who aren't doing it right in their opinion, when they only have one tortoise. IMHO, lots of times it has to do with ego, and other times it has to do with their success and just wanting to share.

 

[Elohi]

I love this thread. Look! Humans! Actual caring, intelligent, passionate humans!
Sorry, the rest of the Internet is usually so full of dark side of humanity.
Jokes aside, I really do love this thread.

 

[Tom]

...Why? Because I don't believe there is a right or wrong way.

Terryo you are, and have always been, one of my favorite people on this forum. You are an example I point to for how to do it "right".

However, I have to disagree with the above statement. While I do think there is more than one "right" way to do things, there is most certainly a wrong way. There are lots of wrong ways. We see the wrong things constantly. Pet stores are constantly giving the wrong advice and selling the wrong products. We see baby tortoises die on this forum constantly because people did things one of many "wrong" ways. It is to try and prevent people from doing things the wrong way that I argue, fuss and fight so much. For example: The typical advice of raising leopard, sulcata, russian or DT hatchlings on dry substrate in a dry open topped tortoise table, feeding them romaine lettuce and soaking once a week is WRONG. Putting a red bulb over a 10 gallon tank with rabbit pellets and leaving it on 24/7 is wrong. Not soaking babies because they get all the water they need from their food is wrong. There are lots and lots of wrong ways, and I think it is a good thing to point them out, explain why they are bad, and offer better ways to do things.

There is a right way. Your methods are one demonstration of this.

There is also a wrong way and that is what I am here to combat against.

 

[SteveW]

Suppose Steve had come on to the forum and said that "Tom's methods are all wrong and baby sulcatas should never be raised that way…" Of course he did nothing of the sort. (Sorry Steve you were just fresh in my mind…) ?

No apologies necessary. I'm happy to be a bad (even hypothetical) example. Right in my wheelhouse

 

[Prairie Mom]

hmmm...I'm thinking about the new question that has been posed in regards to expressing experience and Mike's cautions. I liked Mike's cautions, but I also see the point that sometimes it becomes necessary to ask if a poster actually has experience with the care they are professing to be the best method. -I'm not sure there is an easy answer. I'm also thinking about Terryo's thoughtful comment. I know one poster mentioned offense at the term "newbie". I'm a newbie and the term doesn't offend me. As someone that is new and needing help, I WOULD really like to know that Terryo has 60 years of experience raising box turtles. That made my jaw drop! That would be helpful to me and I would place more weight on her advice. It's difficult because how does a member let this be known without then being labeled as arrogant?

This makes me wish that members took more advantage of the "personal profile pages," so those were more frequently viewed. It would be cool if people made more of a habit of looking at WHO they're typing to. On the profile page, members could give this info there in a friendly way and offer to help anyone with that species or kind of care etc. I think I will go into mine and list my single little sulcata and what I feel that I could help with.

I too have loved reading this thread and have been really impressed with some of the viewpoints shared here.

 

[Prairie Mom]

A note in regards to comments made about picking apart threads and photos.

Yes, I agree that there have been times it has happened pretty badly. I think Steven's "sandwich" approach should be used often in the "enclosure" section. None of the members who participated in this thread come to mind as people that have participated in some of the moments that made me cringe.

You might find this tidbit interesting---I wanted to share that I have participated in forums on the Tortoise Table. Many people don't realize that they have their own forums. I've posted under the same user name. There are a couple other not super active members here who have done the same. They give advice on housing and keeping species and the whole nine yards. (-They advise substrate to be a sand/soil mixture, which is why you see this from many overseas members who are surprised about the possibilities of impaction).

It was my gardening interest that brought me there. I was pretty excited and looking forward to some great dialogue about the ins and outs of feeding tortoises. I quickly found that I could post NOTHING. The people that run the forum are SO NICE and go out of their way to answer questions and help people, but the strictness and "only this way" approach was so bad that I couldn't feel comfortable posting anything! They were even encouraging members to shy away from strawberry leaves -strawberry leaves-! Anyway, just wanted to share that this forum isn't the only one that can be accused of strictness and crowd mentality. I think it happens on some level every where.