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What's in that leaf, grocery and garden, published nutrient list.

Discussion in 'Tortoise Diet and Food' started by Kapidolo Farms, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    Stellaria media Common Chickweed

    Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellaria_media
    TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=86&c=6#.W2h6blVKhaQ
    But see this about the alarmist regard for saponins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponin
    USDA Nutrient database no account
    Feedipedia No onsite database but they refer to this article https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...en-macerated/549D5894C3A797C082861F9982871BCF
    with free access here https://static.cambridge.org/resour...0805:S0021859697004759:S002185969700475Xa.pdf

    Capsella bursa-pastoris Shepard's purse (the seeds look like a goat scrotum)
    Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsella_bursa-pastoris
    TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=297&c=6#.W2h9VFVKhaQ
    In this case the alarmists at TTT are concerned with it being goitrogenic, a concern that arose based on the swollen necks of Aldabra and Galapagos tortoises. There is indeed a single Vet journal entry relating goitrogenic foods with swollen necks in tortoises, that has been bemoaned by its author based on further-later study. The Thyroid gland is in the neck, so it was a reasonable 'cause and effect' idea, but now the focus is on the thymus being the corrupted organ in those giant tortoises. Still not a resolved issue what's going on with those necks, but this condition has been found in-situ, so NOT a result of eating kale or shepherd's purse.
    Feedipedia, no account
    It is considered an "important fodder species" in India https://www.researchgate.net/public...Fodder_Plant_Species_of_Ladakh_Himalaya_India

    Malva one type is called cheese weed
    Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malva
    TTT https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=6&c=5#.W2iBkVVKhaQ
    They look at a few species of the many.
    Feedipedia no account
    There are many many papers that look at various mallows as fodder for animals, most are published pre-internet and in an english language.

    You might notice a bit of an attitude regarding the TTT in my written tone. Frankly, they take liberties* with information and post it, where others (readers) regard it as biblical in importance. The publishers of TTT are fighting hard against the low variety, feed them what they 'like', and offer treats - mentality to tortoise diets. It is a very hard fight and one I hope they succeed more at than not. But it has also created zealots that don't think outside the TTT box. These zealots often prowl around on Facebook, pouncing on anyone feeding something that TTT suggests be fed in moderation or not at all, things that are good foods.

    * (from the account for shepherd's purse) "Please be aware that two or more goitrogenic plants should not be fed in conjunction with each other, and the sum total of goitrogenic foods should not exceed the guideline for a single plant of 'in moderation' (amber-green) or 'sparingly' (amber-red). This will ensure that goitrogenic consumption stays within safe limits." (Really, the guideline, what guideline based on what study? Safe limits?)

    @PA2019 I'd stick with adding the mallow for the chance of not getting into a debate with a TTT zealot. I don't use too many weeds, but I have used all of these. The tortoises seem to pick and choose, and I think it has something to do with the maturity of the leaves at the time they are offered. I find this with Mulberry and Hibiscus as well.
    PA2019 likes this.
  2. RosemaryDW

    RosemaryDW Well-Known Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    Folks do not fact check this statement; you will regret it; Just take Will’s word for it! :eek:
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  3. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    Image taking a class called 'weeds science' in college 'cause you're an Ag major, and having this be on a weekly pop quiz, worth 2 points? A fact you should know for Jeopardy.
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  4. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    Air Potato Vine Dioscorea bulbifera

    Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioscorea_bulbifera

    Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/540 This is for a different species, but offer some idea about the nutrients in the ariel part?

    TTT No data

    USDA food nutrient data base For the tuner only https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/...qlookup=dioscorea&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=

    With 600 species ans some made into many cultivars it would be difficult to know precisely what may or may not be a best practice using this plant as tortoise food.
  5. PA2019

    PA2019 Active Member

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    @Will Thank you very much for the information.

    Regarding the change in focus towards the thymus, I would love to know if the organ in a tortoise changes in the same manner that it does in humans. I recently dissected an 84 y/o in my cadaver lab, and it was incredibly difficult to differentiate the thymus from the surrounding adipose tissue. Does it normally begin to shrink and become replaced by fat in giant tortoise species over time as well?

    When I first starting researching plants to both feed and grow in my pens I leaned heavily on TTT for guidance. Once I found TFO, I shifted from a 'good vs bad' view towards my current focus on variety (hence my original question). I am thankful that I had access to TTT when I first started, but my thoughts also mirror you in some respects to the site.
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  6. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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  7. KarenSoCal

    KarenSoCal Well-Known Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    How about broccoli leaves? I know broccoli has a horrible Ca:ph ratio. I've never seen them for sale before, but got some the other day. Lots of other veggies we only feed leaves...
  8. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    Some Gee Wiz pages
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...are_broccoli_leaves_any_good_a_vegetable.html
    https://gardenmentors.com/garden-he...w-to-harvest-eat-your-broccoli-leaves-recipe/
    https://www.thinkingnutrition.com.au/broccoli-bad-for-you/
    https://www.medicaldaily.com/dark-s...ould-cruciferous-vegetables-be-bad-you-267892

    New web page I found just for this interest, it has many foods we (tortoises) eat ... http://calorielab.com
    http://calorielab.com/foods/broccoli/broccoli-leaves-raw/143/11739/0 so a 48:66 C: P ratio, not good, but another meal with calcium supplements may balance, I think a compelling reason to try broccoli leaves would sell me. Maybe just for the variety, so once a month 10 % of the greens in one day's rations?
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  9. KarenSoCal

    KarenSoCal Well-Known Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    Sounds good...thank you. Now we'll see if he likes them!
  10. Stoneman

    Stoneman Active Member

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    Thank you Will! You are so smart! Did you study biology?

    Do you know of any compilations of recommended daily allowance for species of tortoises? I have been wanting to get my hands on one but I can't seem to find one anywhere.
  11. Stoneman

    Stoneman Active Member

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    I studied nutrition, as a hobby, and as an elective in college. So I am by no means an expert. I believe the person who was concerned about its relationship with calcium had it confused with phosphorus. Potassium is a micronutrient, and of the micronutrients, it is an electrolyte. The most important electrolytes (in humans at least) are sodium and potassium. Often absorbed as potassium chloride and sodium chloride. They are essential for neurological functions, cardiovascular functions, and overall energy levels. I think this might be why they eat dog poop, and carrion. So they can get micronutrients like this not commonly found in plants. I will sprinkle small amounts of both on my tortoise feed from time to time.
  12. Kaeloni

    Kaeloni Active Member

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    That’s hilarious! I never thought of rabbits being such pests! We used to have deer eat our plants until the stray dog problem got so bad that the deer disappeared. I’d love to see a pic of these rabbits!
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  13. KarenSoCal

    KarenSoCal Well-Known Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    I'll see if I can get one.
  14. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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  15. ColaCarbonaria

    ColaCarbonaria Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about occasionally adding chopped honeycomb to the daily salad mix to up the fiber content. My friend is a beekeeper so I’ve got access to all natural comb. The research I’ve found says that ppl boil it and skim the chafe off the top then it’s ready for sale for human consumption. I’m thinking of leaving it as is (not boiling it) which would have all kinds of dead baby bees and whatever else is in honeycomb after the honey is extracted. My thought process says leave it natural and not boil, but that’s why I’m asking. So 2 things, is there any reason not to try this, and should I boil or not?
  16. Cowboy_Ken

    Cowboy_Ken Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    What critter are y’all thinkin’ of feedin’ this to?
  17. ColaCarbonaria

    ColaCarbonaria Well-Known Member

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    Tortoises
  18. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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    https://savannahbee.com/blog/what-is-honeycomb/

    Is Honeycomb Nutritious? Honeycomb is basically beeswax and raw honey. The beeswax has very little nutritional value with the exception of trace amounts of vitamin A. However since our system does not break down beeswax, it is a very good source of roughage.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeswax


    I tend to be a try a little of anything cautiously. I'd skip the beeswax. Fiber has an actual purpose as a substrate fir the muscle along the intestinal walls to act on so they can move food along. I think the wax would not facilitate that.
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  19. Kapidolo Farms

    Kapidolo Farms Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Tortoise Club Tortoise Club

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  20. Gopherus Guy

    Gopherus Guy Member

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    I feed daily with other greens, squash, grape leaves etc.
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