What's the dealio with SA Leopards?

[TheLastGreen]

They seem elusive in the form. I searched but found very few things about them.
Obviously when SA enacted stricter wildlife exportation laws, it became difficult (impossible) to get the buggers.
With the 11 clades of leopards, surely other leopards must "stand out".
Why are these so unique in terms of breeding, diet, colouration?
How is it going with current efforts to incubate eggs? I know the incubation is long, but any luck so far?
Why are they so fearless, is it how they evolved?

(Mine eying me while soaking)
A few things I couldn't find searching
At what age or size do leopards start laying eggs?
Do they lay eggs regardless if they are alone and would they still try to dig nests?
What size are leopard eggs?
(I do apologise for the question diarrhea, these questions have been bothering me for a while)

 

[zovick]

They seem elusive in the form. I searched but found very few things about them.
Obviously when SA enacted stricter wildlife exportation laws, it became difficult (impossible) to get the buggers.
With the 11 clades of leopards, surely other leopards must "stand out".
Why are these so unique in terms of breeding, diet, colouration?
How is it going with current efforts to incubate eggs? I know the incubation is long, but any luck so far?
Why are they so fearless, is it how they evolved?
View attachment 340227View attachment 340272
(Mine eying me while soaking)
A few things I couldn't find searching
At what age or size do leopards start laying eggs?
Do they lay eggs regardless if they are alone and would they still try to dig nests?
What size are leopard eggs?
(I do apologise for the question diarrhea, these questions have been bothering me for a while)

What do you mean by 11 clades of Leopards?

Also which subspecies of Leopard are you asking about? The S. pardalis pardalis or the S. pardalis babcocki? Those are the only 2 types of Leopards I know. The pardalis pardalis are the larger of the two subspecies, but both occur in SA.

Plenty of people here in the US are breeding both of these subspecies. The eggs would be about the size of a ping pong ball or slightly larger for a larger tortoise.

Females of the smaller subspecies (babcocki) could begin laying eggs at roughly 20 cm in size. Age would then be roughly 5-8 years assuming a normal growth rate.

The tortoise in your photo appears to be of the babcocki subspecies. Do you know if that is true or not?

 

[TheLastGreen]

Thanks, I'm talking about S p babcoki.
I've heard Tom mentioning the 11 clades before, perhaps there is minor distinction between the leopards as their range extends, but not enough for sub species?
I do think this tort is babcoki, I think I may have asked in an old thread, but I don't have any other way of knowing.
The tort mentioned above is 5 years old, plastron length 15 cm, in my opinion way to small to start with nesting, but with nesting season ahead I was wondering if she would still lay eggs even though no males are present?

 

[Tom]

What do you mean by 11 clades of Leopards?

Also which subspecies of Leopard are you asking about? The S. pardalis pardalis or the S. pardalis babcocki? Those are the only 2 types of Leopards I know. The pardalis pardalis are the larger of the two subspecies, but both occur in SA.

Plenty of people here in the US are breeding both of these subspecies. The eggs would be about the size of a ping pong ball or slightly larger for a larger tortoise.

Females of the smaller subspecies (babcocki) could begin laying eggs at roughly 20 cm in size. Age would then be roughly 5-8 years assuming a normal growth rate.

The tortoise in your photo appears to be of the babcocki subspecies. Do you know if that is true or not?

Somewhere around 2010, "they" decided there were no subspecies anymore, and it was just one species broken down into 11 "clades" across the enormous range. We can see morphological differences to distinguish between the clades, like the giant size and lighter color of the Ethiopians, and the darker color and large size of the South Africans. 6 of the 11 clades are in Southern Africa, and the other five comprise the rest of them including the Ethiopians and Somalians.

Over here we still have the "regular" types which are a mix of imported genetics from all over their range, including the South Africans, and we have the South African type, formerly called Gpp, that has been bred true by a few individuals (Thanks you Randy) since their importation in 1990.

 

[Tom]

They seem elusive in the form. I searched but found very few things about them.
Obviously when SA enacted stricter wildlife exportation laws, it became difficult (impossible) to get the buggers.
With the 11 clades of leopards, surely other leopards must "stand out".
Why are these so unique in terms of breeding, diet, colouration?
How is it going with current efforts to incubate eggs? I know the incubation is long, but any luck so far?
Why are they so fearless, is it how they evolved?
View attachment 340227View attachment 340272
(Mine eying me while soaking)
A few things I couldn't find searching
At what age or size do leopards start laying eggs?
Do they lay eggs regardless if they are alone and would they still try to dig nests?
What size are leopard eggs?
(I do apologise for the question diarrhea, these questions have been bothering me for a while)

1. They are unique because we only have "regular" leopards over here which are a mix of genetics that have been imported since the 60s, and then we have the SA leopards which came over in 1990, and a few scrupulous breeders have kept them pure. Main differences would be that they are larger, different shaped, more adaptable, much bolder, and they are grass eaters.
2. One friend gets a reported 40-60% hatch rate. I get far less, but I do manage to hatch out a few each year.
3. Don't know why their personalities are so difference, but I like it!
4. Egg laying age will vary, but if they are fed and raised right, most people get eggs by seven years old. I did.
5. Like most tortoises, they can lay eggs with no male, but they almost never do. That would be a rare and unusual occurrence.
6. Like Mr. Z said, the eggs are like a ping pong ball, and slightly larger for older larger females. Some females lay smaller eggs in higher numbers, and others lay larger eggs in lower numbers, I have noticed.

I've been keeping them since 2010. I don't know everything, but I'm happy to share what I do know. Your questions are welcome.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have what are supposed to be five South African leopards, and while they grew faster than the babcocks from babies, now that they are about ten or so years old, they are just normal size leopard tortoises. I s'pose if I live long enough I might see them grow BIG, but I'm not seein' any difference now. If I think about it later today I'll get some pictures.

 

[Tom]

I have what are supposed to be five South African leopards, and while they grew faster than the babcocks from babies, now that they are about ten or so years old, they are just normal size leopard tortoises. I s'pose if I live long enough I might see them grow BIG, but I'm not seein' any difference now. If I think about it later today I'll get some pictures.

The SA leopards get bigger than the "regular" leopards. What you are seeing is that the "regular" leopards here in the US are now a genetic mix from all over the leopard tortoise range. For practical purposes, this means that most of the regular leopards here in the states get bigger than what they would be in their native range, because they have those SA genes mixed in. This is also why many people argue that their regular leopard is just as personable, fearless and outgoing as our SA leopards. Because they are due to their mixed genetics.

The guy who bred our SA leopards also had "pure" leopards imported from 3 other parts of their range. He pointed out the morphological differences to me and it was obvious. They were all much smaller and much more fearful than the SA leopards in the pen next to theirs. When seen side-by-side like that, the difference becomes very obvious. When buying a normal leopard tortoise from most breeders, you are going to get a genetic mix that has been brewing since the 60s, and SA traits like larger size, outgoing personality, and a dietary preference for grass and hay, are likely to be seen.

 

[TheLastGreen]

Well, here's a good example of their fearlessness, I picked her up just now to get an image, and she just looked around, trying to walk
(She's still light enough to be held in one hand luckily)

 

[Yvonne G]

Here is my 2010 SA female along side BenAwes, a SA leopard male appx. 8 years old, and my size 8.5 female shoe:





And here's an older, full grown babcock female alongside a stunted male rescue and my 8.5 female shoe:

 

[TheLastGreen]

Wow, the females get massive!
That stunted male you have Yvonne, has he grown since you took him in?

 

[Yvonne G]

Wow, the females get massive!
That stunted male you have Yvonne, has he grown since you took him in?

No. But he's a perfect little specimen. Perfectly smooth and well proportioned for his size. I got him from someone in New Mexico in October 2018, and I neglected to note his size and weight, but he looks the same size as when I got him.

 

[TheLastGreen]

I see, I searched a lot about stunted torts and it seems that it differs from tort to tort, but I've yet to get a concrete awnser on the topic.
My tort is still small about 15 cm in plastron length, or about 5,9 inches.
In 3 months she grew 4 cm, a bit more than 1.5 inches.
She is 5 years old but I'm hopeful she'll still grow

 

[Tom]

Well, here's a good example of their fearlessness, I picked her up just now to get an image, and she just looked around, trying to walkView attachment 340277
(She's still light enough to be held in one hand luckily)

This is characteristic of SA leopards from the day they hatch, in contrast to "regular" leopards which close up in their shell in an effort to hide and protect themselves from the giant hairless apes.

 

[wellington]

My two regular male leopards have always been fearless. The two females I had, one a regular leopard feared everything. The other I believe had a lot of SA in her didn't fear anything.
I think females are more skiddish then males with the regular leopards. It also could be the amount of handling when raised. I didn't raise neither female but did raise one of the males from hatchling size and the other was very small for his age and needed lots of handling for rehabbing.
Both were hatched 2011 and both eat grass as adults but wouldn't when young.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I used to hear the leopard tortoise described as a "pretty rock". I never quite understood the phrase until someone pointed out that my leopard is NOT like most other leopards they knew. The regular leopards would hide, unmoving anytime people were around. Hence the term, "pretty rock". My leopard has never been shy. In fact, quite the opposite! He's the most outgoing, inquisitive, territorial, even obnoxious turtle EVER! He bruises my ankles, chases the children, knocks over flower pots/fire pits/buckets and won't sit still for a second (unless he thinks no one is around). He's a likely an SA hybrid and because of him I've coined the term "pretty bulldozer" instead! If you have an outgoing leopard like this, then get ready for years of laughs and his antics! ...and some tears from the ramming too...

 

[biochemnerd808]

What do you mean by 11 clades of Leopards?

Also which subspecies of Leopard are you asking about? The S. pardalis pardalis or the S. pardalis babcocki? Those are the only 2 types of Leopards I know. The pardalis pardalis are the larger of the two subspecies, but both occur in SA.

Plenty of people here in the US are breeding both of these subspecies. The eggs would be about the size of a ping pong ball or slightly larger for a larger tortoise.

Females of the smaller subspecies (babcocki) could begin laying eggs at roughly 20 cm in size. Age would then be roughly 5-8 years assuming a normal growth rate.

The tortoise in your photo appears to be of the babcocki subspecies. Do you know if that is true or not?

@zovick I believe the OP actually lives IN South Africa, and in other photos they posted, it looks like theor tortoise is SPP - the oval and more flat body shape, the double dots in the hatchling scute portion, and the dark shell color and freckles on its legs, in addition with location make me fairly certain. The small size is a bit of a conundrum though.

 

[TheLastGreen]

Well here's a few images of her, perhaps it could help with the identification?
She's a bit stunted, I got her a few months ago and by size you'd think she would be somewhere in the teen stage. I do sometimes wonder if she could be male?

 

[zovick]

Well here's a few images of her, perhaps it could help with the identification?View attachment 344215View attachment 344216View attachment 344217View attachment 344218View attachment 344219View attachment 344220View attachment 344221View attachment 344222View attachment 344223
She's a bit stunted, I got her a few months ago and by size you'd think she would be somewhere in the teen stage. I do sometimes wonder if she could be male?

Not sure, but I would say it looks more like what used to be called S. p. babcocki than S. p. pardalis.

Also, the anal scutes are looking more male than female to me at this time.

 

[TheLastGreen]

Not sure, but I would say it looks more like what used to be called S. p. babcocki than S. p. pardalis.

Also, the anal scutes are looking more male than female to me at this time.

I agree, the gullars do look a bit male to me as well

 

[biochemnerd808]

Well here's a few images of her, perhaps it could help with the identification?View attachment 344215View attachment 344216View attachment 344217View attachment 344218View attachment 344219View attachment 344220View attachment 344221View attachment 344222View attachment 344223
She's a bit stunted, I got her a few months ago and by size you'd think she would be somewhere in the teen stage. I do sometimes wonder if she could be male?

I love how dark its coloring is! So handsome.