When to force feed/stomach tube?????

[Tortoise]

HI
I have had a pair of Spekii hinges for over 2 weeks.The female I have seen eat a couple of times(she ate grapes and mushroom) but I have to be very well hidden -they seem to have excellent hearing, sight!
She has defecated in soak waters and will move probably only once a day-very quiet and hides 99% time.

The male I have not seen him eat at all yet. He is more lethargic still and is often in the same place for 23 hrs or so.His eyes will be closed mostly.
Even when I pick him up his eyes are very slow to open, unlike female who retreats in shell very fast!

I have temperature gradients, quiet room, I mist and water mulch daily.They have multiple hides at different temps, 2 large water pans and food offered once a day and left until following day.

I have soaked the male more because I worry more about his health.
His weight is 572g female is 410g and a little smaller in size.

I am at the point where I feel I possibly need to intervene with the male and perhaps stomach tube some food.I also wonder about treating for parasites.I can only assume they are WC.

The tortoise trust article
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/kinixys.html
Suggests lots of worming whereas other folks say leave them alone.

How long can this go on before I could perhaps lose him to lack of food etc?
If there are parasites causing the problems, then isn't leaving them alone lessening their chances of survival?

I have the belliana boys too so not totally inexperienced with hinges.

Any input appreciated as I am worrying over them and don't want to lose them.They are extremely rare here.

I have on hand'
treatment for Flagellates
Fenbendazole wormer paste(safe guard)
critical care formula for tubing.
I am happy to mix up a feed too for tubing with all the added nutrients.
I have a product here too called rapid rehab I think.It was bought for alpacas but I know some of these type of products can help

Thanks

 

[Jacqui]

Okay, as I recall these guys have good weight correct? Feel like rocks? Is the male seeming to be less attentive to you bothering him? More lethargic?
The Vet never got back with the results of the fecals?

 

[Yvonne G]

I think I would get him eating and acting in a more normal fashion before I put the added stress of parasite poison on his system. But I don't really know this to be fact...its just what I would do.


If you have a good tortoise vet, it is much easier to have the vet surgically put the tube through the neck and into the stomach. Then you just fold it over onto the carapace when you're finished and tape it to the tortoise. It is ready for the next feeding with minimum stress to the tortoise. With this tube in place, the tortoise has his mouth free to eat or drink if he chooses.

If you do decide to tube feed, I only do it every third day because their metabolism is so slow.

 

[Tortoise]

HI
Yes the feel of them weight wise is not concerning.But what if this is due to fact they were eating well in the wild possible and since then they don't. They wouldn't drop weight very quickly I assume?

The male is almost as if he hadn't noticed I picked him up and I carried him across basement into laundry room to sink before he started to open eyes-this worries me.He is unlikely to retreat in shell too unlike female who has lightening fast reaction and is always watchful it seems.

Very different between the two of them.
Yes they feel like rocks
male is 572g
female is 410g but smaller in size too.

Thanks for advice on force feeding-I could hold off if it won't starve them (or him mainly)

I will call vet-she never phoned me back.
We have a 10 hour drive(round trip) to good veterinary college-trying to avois that trip if we don't need to go.
Thanks-calling vet right away!

 

[Jacqui]

So even if you decide to go with the tube, you couldn't get a good one in until Monday?

 

[Tortoise]

ok apparently clear for parasites and flagellates!

This was from fecal sample from female-male hasn't produced as far as I can see. Not in indivual soaks anyways-I soaked him for 5 hours in warm water in effort to see a sample but nothing produced.He must be empty of contents I guess.

Well at least I don't need to treat unnecessarily.

 

[Jacqui]

I am much more worried by unresponsive behavior. It makes me think he is going into a shut down.

 

[Tortoise]

I can try tubing with IV tube like I do with pancake baby but tube is very small in diameter.Possibly need something larger.
Always hard to tube-getting really good with baby pancake but he opens his mouth for me now as he is well practiced too!

The hinges I suspect will give great resistance tio this and it will be very stressful on them (and us)

With that surgical insertion of tube, would a regular vet be ok doing that or should it be a reptile vet-not sure if this is a specialist procedure or run of the mill?

 

[Jacqui]

Okay, as I recall he is also sitting on the edge of the basking area correct? So he isn't wanting higher temps or he would go under the light. Just to be sure, he picked that spot himself or did you place him there?

When soaking is he at all active? Or just sits, eyes open? Does he go into his shell at your approach once in the warm water?

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Of the animals I have tubed, the Bells I did it for (worm meds) were the world's worst.

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My belief with worming is not to do it on an animal not eating and/or under stress unless it HAS to be done. So even if the fecal had come back positive, I would not have wormed. I want my animals eating first and foremost.

 

[Tortoise]

What does a shut down mean-he could will himself to pass away -is this a major stress response?
What can be done about this behaviour.
How would I know if he has sight? Could he be blind?

The flight in was not good as shipper didn't do as we requested in terms of correct insulation for flight , there was just a transparent box with paper towel inside and a few hand warmers thrown in. Very rough and not insulated at all.There was no outer box surrounding this one-it was terrible!
The flight was Dec 16th.

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He sits on edge of bask area as I think its too hot directly under and so he chooses his own spot just outside of beam from red heat bulb. He does this consistently from all angles-seems to know where he wants to be.

Not very active in water-today he walked up and down a few times and then sat in one place sometimes eyes open sometimes closed.Mostly closed.
He doesn't seem scared when I approach-he just will watch if eyes open or stay with eyes closed.

He has sat close enough to foods that he should smell them too but seems to ignore it.

 

[Jacqui]

A shut down is my term for giving up, yes. Even blind, he should respond to your approach and certainly once you touch him, which as I am understanding he is not, correct?

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Moving when in the water is a good sign, plus your saying he IS moving on his own some? Atleast to get into his choice of warm spots?


I need to run into town to get Jeff some pills. I will be back in like an hour and talk more.

 

[Tortoise]

A shut down is my term for giving up, yes. Even blind, he should respond to your approach and certainly once you touch him, which as I am understanding he is not, correct?

Today when I took him from the sink back to enclosure in other room, he was struggling-legs walking in air and such just as my bells would do.
He isn't as bothered by my presence in same room.The female will hurry to hide if brave enough or simple go into shell.He will just stay put.

he isn't as bothered though-not sure if its illness or personality.Prefer them to react though really.

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about fecal-the sample was in water overnight before being sent to vets following day. Would the parasites die in cold water overnight or would there still be signs .
I did mention this to vets when it was dropped off.

 

[tortadise]

I had a similar scare with one of my male spekks, when the dry winter air came pushing in. I separated him from the other male he was in the enclosure with. Soaked him by himself sprayed them down more than usual and began seeing more response by him. My group tends to have many different active levels. 1 female will eat 24 hr a day, a few males will eat only at night, and a few other males and females will only eat early morning. Does he look dry at all? Winter is very hard on these guys. Especially because it is their natural summer right now and our winter here. I would try soaking him a few times a day and increase humidity in the environment with a humidifier as well to spray them down 3-4 times a day during our very dry winter times. Try minced oysters mixed with some tomatoes and greens mixed in. it smells bad but they tend to like it. I personally would not try a feeding tube at this stage. Its very stressful especially if he is teetering on not doing well.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks I need to decide on what humidifier to get and get one asap.Our air is dry here most of the time.I spray the enclosure but could do that more often.There are 2 large pans of water too.
The soaking is no problem either-it doesn't seem to stress him much.
Thanks for the info.I think if we were in a warm season here it would be a lot easier and we probably wouldn't have as much to worry about.
Not sure whether to switch off MVB or not-its only been put back on today after taking it away a few days back-I think they prefer the darkness.I guess its ok not to have constant UV especially as they are adults and need to be secure in their environment.
So did you have problems when you first got your male? is he ok now?
thanks Kelly

 

[Jacqui]

Okay here are my thoughts...

First when it comes down to it, your the one who has to choose what to do, your the one who is with this animal. Words can only convey so much for us to judge by, your seeing first hand.

If this was my animal... I would just leave him alone for awhile. He is being responsive (just not super shy from the sounds of it) and is of good weight. If it makes you feel better, I have had new animals which did not eat well. I told you I have a spekii who is being slow to come around, as is an import mate from what I am hearing. I have had hingebacks which took a full year before they were really eating. So he may just be a slow one to come around. I know it's hard to sit back and wait, but that is my advise. (It's also why I have Russians, to counter the nonpiggy type tortoises ).

As you can see, even between Kelly and I, we have very different approaches. I know that only makes it harder for you, but the thing is so many different ways might work or it just may be only time that is needed.

I think tubing is not yet called for and would further stress this animal. Have you tried real ripe bananas?

 

[tortadise]

Mmmm yes jacqui bananas are a favorite. I agree with jacqui hingebacks can take a while to adjust.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks I will wait and try to not worry!!(I love watching my piggies too-red foots, hermanns-so satisfying to watch the greedy ones right now, I think I would go crazy if I didn't have those to watch to counter the others) ( as a parent to kids and lots of species of animals-it just is good to see them all eat-its hard not to worry)
Yes I tried really ripe bananas.
I left smelly canned salmon there today too. The female has got up and only seems to make her appearance once in the evening-seems to be a pattern for her.I suspect she eats when I am not there.
The male is sleeping.
Wow they can take a really long time to settle-I can wait him out and i guess weighing him occasionally will help.Presumably I should still soak them?
How often-every day or longer stretches between?

Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions, it does help a lot and it is reassuring-thanks!!!!!

 

[Yvonne G]

Just a little more info to tuck away in the back of your brain:

The surgically implanted feeding tube doesn't bother the tortoise at all once it is installed. they don't really even know it is in there. Of course, they have to be sedated for the surgery. I don't think a regular vet should be asked to do it. I'd shoot for a vet familiar with tortoises.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LZ...phagostomy. tubes. in. chelonians ...&f=false

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks Yvonne, good to know and what a great book that would be to have on hand too.
Yes If we went this route I think we would head off to the veterinary college for sure.

 

[Benjamin]

Have you tried live earthworms or mealworms. I had a group of six WC adult spekii a decade ago. A few of them started to die off after a month. My friend took the remaining three(he had no other tortoises then). He got them feeding on earthworms and mealworms, he still has them today.
In regards to medications, Kinixys are very sensative to metronidazole. Every one that I treated with this medication at a dose of 50mg/kg, days 1 3 and 5 died.
What is the ambient temp of the room? I would also suggest keeping them seperate.