When to trust a vet's judgment? Dying tortoise :(

Homeschool Mom

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Thank you, Munchy is miserable physically and I am miserable mentally/emotionally kicking myself and wondering if there were signs we should have seen, or what if I would've opted for more excessive testing when we first got him given we didn't know his background story... Realizing my guilt and what-ifs won't change reality so we just need to learn as much as possible through this, keep his cage immaculate and on top of his cares and see what happens.
 

ascott

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For anyone who's curious, Munchy has been doing well. His food still comes out poorly digested, but eating well a variety of foods and active.


I have to say, simply reading your post here...I would never bring him to the initial vet who peeled and picked away his shell....I also would never take any future reptile to that person....they should never have peeled and picked away that shell...especially the underside...terrible that the vet did this. Also, for reference, Russian Tortoise (especially wild caught) are notorious for damaged/dinged/injured shells....and if a vet who does not know this then begins to pick and peel at any defects in the shell, well, this is what can occur....

If it were me, I would not give up hope...likely that is a wild caught tort...which means it is likely very tenacious and will try to survive at all cost....I am curious, why are you covering the tortoise in a bandage? That only retains moisture and ick/puss/junk within the bandage....and air is friend to a damaged shell....

I would offer soaks a couple of times per day, I also would be sure to have clean jug of warm water handy so that you can rinse/change out any water that he messes in....I would also blot dry the tortoise after each soak and be sure to dry the shell...then apply an anti fungal cream to the area...taking care to not let the tort drink strait away when you do the first soak after applying the cream...I would gently scrub off the cream residue with a soft bristle toothbrush and warm water and then allow the tort to have a fresh soak ...and then do all over again for at least 2 to 3 weeks....I would also offer that tortoise as much romaine as he wants to eat right now..you can fuss with tough love later when he is better....also, the advice to add dandelion to the romaine is perfect...you will want to offer any foods he finds festive and will take in readily right now....do not give up. Where there is a coat tail for him to ride until he has his own strength again...let him do so....best of wishes and be tenacious as his is....
 

Tortshort

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Just a question did you finish giving the deworming medication they sent home?? Maybe he is having some diarrhea from the medications, parasites and overall stress of the situation.
 

BeeBee*BeeLeaves

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And keep giving him his probiotics! Pro = for ... bio = life! Probiotics are really a big boost and help. His poops being weird may be that he needs a little probiotic support or that the meds are getting in the way of his digestion/assimilation. Which they do with people also. Side effects from meds can be just as bad as the original ailment sometimes. Also, as an add, chicory can help with the probiotics because it works as a prebiotic and helps "fertilize" the probiotics so you have more help growing in his belly to work out the antibiotics and other bad bacterias. Good over evil! Everything with tortoises takes time, so just keep on keeping on. Patience little grasshopper. LOL. : )
 

Homeschool Mom

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Tortshort said:
Just a question did you finish giving the deworming medication they sent home??
Yes, I did finish giving Munchy the dewormer.
ascott said:
I have to say, simply reading your post here...I would never bring him to the initial vet who peeled and picked away his shell....I also would never take any future reptile to that person....they should never have peeled and picked away that shell...especially the underside...terrible that the vet did this.
The thing is, although I was really questioning my first vet's actions (and still suspect the injected antibiotic was too much...), the secondary vet affirmed the treatment that he'd received so far, including the picking of his shell to access the fungal/bacterial shell rot inside so we could treat it. So, did I really find 2 bunk vets, even after driving to a vet specializing in exotics the second time?
ascott said:
.I am curious, why are you covering the tortoise in a bandage?
After his initial shell debrisment, he had a couple spots that were bleeding a tinge. To my understanding, the bandage serves 3 purposes: 1. To keep the ointment on that we're applying to combat the shell rot bacteria (which... she treats/treated it as bacterial despite initially telling me it was due to low humidity... I think she is far from an expert but was following protocol and guessing at the cause- which causes a fair amount of emotional trauma to myself and my 8 year old son) anyway.... 2. To keep small particles of bedding out of the injured area while healing- his shell is not all firm and smooth, small particles could easily lodge themselves in the uneven area. 3. To prevent his fecal/urates from coming in contact with the injured portion of his shell.

I am hoping to give him some bandage-free time within the next couple weeks. The softer tissues that were originally bleeding are starting to firm up, so as I watch how he heals I will ask the vet(s) about bandage free time in a super-clean cage or even in a dry tote if the bedding poses a risk to allow some access to air. I agree that it's concerning the lack of fresh air his healing area gets but not sure how to remedy the fact and also prevent infection at this stage in the game.

He is starting to do better. Only soaking and changing bandages every other day seems to cause less stress, but still allow us to keep the area nice and clean during healing.

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:
And keep giving him his probiotics!
I am familiar with probiotics in people so I was thrilled to discover Carolina Pet Supply offers a supplement for RTs which you can have probiotics mixed into. We ordered some and are waiting for its arrival. Thanks for the chicory tip- I was just reading about chicory being especially helpful... somewhere.. :)

Thank you all for your input and support, it's been a roller coaster, but I hope we're on the uphill!
 

Homeschool Mom

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Tonight I noticed that there is an area of concern on Munchy's shell near his rear scute to the right of his tail. It is not an opaque shell portion like the scute on the left of his tail, and although hard to see in the picture, it has light tinges of pink in a few areas. I am thinking his shell infection, while clearing up on his plastron, is showing up elsewhere. Doing some quick research, this looks like he's in a battle with septicaemia. He is eating well, moving around well, digesting his food again (despite the fact that the probiotics we ordered STILL haven't arrived), and his plastron is healing. The emotional roller coaster is back on for myself and my 8 year old, but we are learning through this. I know he needs treatmet, but I am concerned about the injectible antibiotics we used last time since he had the sudden onset of urinating blood after 14 injections, and it cleared up and his appetite increased after stopping the antibiotics. Perhaps a different med this time? I'm not sure. I can email the vet now with an update and pictures and I guess I will hear back on Monday and probably bring him in.IMG_5058.JPG IMG_5060.JPG
 

RussianTort44

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tortoises need alot of care. Feed it the right stuff..give it baths. Make sure the humidity is up, don't want a cold tort
 

Yvonne G

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Hi RussianTort44: I think if you'll read the whole thread, you'll see that Homeschool mom is going above and beyond in the care of this tortoise.
 

Longtabl

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My son and I have been following your baby' progress. Hope he continues to improve. Bacterial infections are a nightmare, and many folks would have given up. I read Your story to my sister (a criticalist vet) and she visibly winced, then said you were the best type of client/owner, and doing everything you could. We are all hoping for the best outcome.
 

BeeBee*BeeLeaves

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Hi Homeschool Mom. I hope things are getting better with Munchy. I agree with Yvonne, above. That being said, I hope that the probiotics have arrived. I have used people one's also and perhaps you can get some to use in a pinch, and then use with family when your order arrives.

I wanted to add a suggestion: Manuka Honey aka MediHoney. You can keep things aired out, no need to bandage. And it is strong stuff as far as antibacterial. They use it in heart surgery for goodness sakes. Maybe a teeny bit messy, but worth it if it is going to stop the infection. The higher the UMF, Unique Manuka Factor, the more potent, and yes more expensive. That might help his shell situation. Like Yvonne said, they are sturdy little tortoises, just keep on keeping on. I am hopeful that Munchy will get over this health hump. You are an awesome owner, how can he not?
 

Homeschool Mom

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Thanks for the encouragement, but with this new development of the infection rising to his upper shell, I am concerned that we will not have the finances to give him the top of the line treatment. Our vet suggested attempting other antibiotics, which we will do, but the next treatment option would involve putting him under anesthetic, removing a portion of his hind shell surgically to do a biopsy and sending it off to a specialist lab. We just don't have over a thousand dollars we can plunk down for this little guy. We'll do the best we can with the hundreds we do have available and try to make this the best summer possible if he makes it that far. Long term prognosis looks very slim for survival at this point from my vet's opinion.
 

Tidgy's Dad

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How very sad.
We know you'll do the best you can.
While there's life, there's hope.
Sending good thoughts to the poor little mite.
 

Homeschool Mom

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Good news is, I filed Munchy's beak down a bit tonight using an emery board. It was less traumatic to him than being forced to swallow dewormer a while back. He's looking much better. I think he still needs to be filed more to get him to the right length, but he's certainly looking better and hopefully will enjoy easier eating. I had received recommendations to feed him on a slightly rough surface but was weary of trying to do that since his plastron is healing. I didn't want him to rub his recovering shell on a rough surface, so I was glad to find this helpful site: http://tortaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/12/how-to-gently-file-tortoises-beak-video.html

Also, his TNT supplement with probiotics arrived today from Carolina Pet Supply! My son and I have taken on the attitude that we will treat him like a king this summer with more outside time than last year and we also got some seed to plant him his own section of the garden, praying he lives long enough to eat the harvest. I know this site isn't for bragging about our kids, but I was so proud of my son... when we were discussing the fact that we'd just make the rest of Munchy's days the best as we could, but the fact that I can't say for sure whether he'll live through the summer, my son said, "But if you look at it like a race, Munchy'd get to Heaven sooner!" He's in no way excited for his beloved pet to die, but he's trying so hard to be positive. We got him his own pet to be a life lesson, that's certainly true no matter how much longer Munchy stays with us, we've learned a lot and loved him more than we expected to.
 

Tidgy's Dad

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Enjoy following this story.
Each successive post seems a little more positive.
Please continue your updates.
Bless you, Munchy and your son whom you are quite right to brag about.
 

ascott

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Good news is, I filed Munchy's beak down a bit tonight using an emery board. It was less traumatic to him than being forced to swallow dewormer a while back. He's looking much better. I think he still needs to be filed more to get him to the right length, but he's certainly looking better and hopefully will enjoy easier eating. I had received recommendations to feed him on a slightly rough surface but was weary of trying to do that since his plastron is healing. I didn't want him to rub his recovering shell on a rough surface, so I was glad to find this helpful site: http://tortaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/12/how-to-gently-file-tortoises-beak-video.html

Also, his TNT supplement with probiotics arrived today from Carolina Pet Supply! My son and I have taken on the attitude that we will treat him like a king this summer with more outside time than last year and we also got some seed to plant him his own section of the garden, praying he lives long enough to eat the harvest. I know this site isn't for bragging about our kids, but I was so proud of my son... when we were discussing the fact that we'd just make the rest of Munchy's days the best as we could, but the fact that I can't say for sure whether he'll live through the summer, my son said, "But if you look at it like a race, Munchy'd get to Heaven sooner!" He's in no way excited for his beloved pet to die, but he's trying so hard to be positive. We got him his own pet to be a life lesson, that's certainly true no matter how much longer Munchy stays with us, we've learned a lot and loved him more than we expected to.


I personally would not subject him to any further invasive/abrasive treatments....I think that the best thing you and your son can do is to offer a calm, healthy environment for the tortoise to settle into....it is surprising what can happen when you allow a private creature to do just that....good job on the interaction for your son....sometimes a creature feels low, is less than healthy..and if a human can step in and offer their coat tail for that weak spirit to ride upon..sometimes that ride is just what is needed...sometimes it allows the creature in need to gain strength until it leaps from the coat tail and can stand on its own....I wish you two and your tort friend the best of luck...and health my friend.
 

WillTort2

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I've used the TNT with probiotics for several years now and I'm seeing healthy results. How much is due to the TNT I'll never know. Because I'm not willing to deny the supplement to any of my Russians.
 
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