Why are my Russian Males So Diff?

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CroAT

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Hello everyone im new here to this forum and just had a quick question me and my girlfriend have a few Russian torts and 2 of the males are like night and day when u look at them looks wise and she thinks one of the males may have some greek in it.
IMAG1280_zps90423997.jpg
Here is a pic of the 2 male Russian torts that we have. Leviathan is on the left and Comet is on the right. Now Leviathan is very bright in color and has very solid shell patterns compared to Comet who is very dark and more monotone looking and almost all chocolate looking in color. Is there any specific reason why these 2 males look so diff in color and in shell pattern?
 

Jacqui

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A lot would depend on where they originally came from. They both are full Russians, they just have different coloring.
 

Laura

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i think they look very much the same.. maybe as different as dawn and noon.. :)
there are different subspecies.. but I don't know enought about that to tell a difference..
 

biochemnerd808

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Russian tortoises come in many different colors, and several different shapes, too. I have a female who is yellow like a sunflower, and one of the males I fostered was black and shiny. It depends on the region they hatched, how much 'real' UV they were exposed to, and a lot of other factors. You definitely have two Russians there, not a hybrid. They just most likely came from separate populations from different areas.

BTW: To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a part-Russian-part-Greek tortoise - the two species are different enough that no viable young would come from an accidental mating. :)

CroAT said:
Hello everyone im new here to this forum and just had a quick question me and my girlfriend have a few Russian torts and 2 of the males are like night and day when u look at them looks wise and she thinks one of the males may have some greek in it.
IMAG1280_zps90423997.jpg
Here is a pic of the 2 male Russian torts that we have. Leviathan is on the left and Comet is on the right. Now Leviathan is very bright in color and has very solid shell patterns compared to Comet who is very dark and more monotone looking and almost all chocolate looking in color. Is there any specific reason why these 2 males look so diff in color and in shell pattern?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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biochemnerd808 said:
Russian tortoises come in many different colors, and several different shapes, too. I have a female who is yellow like a sunflower, and one of the males I fostered was black and shiny. It depends on the region they hatched, how much 'real' UV they were exposed to, and a lot of other factors. You definitely have two Russians there, not a hybrid. They just most likely came from separate populations from different areas.

BTW: To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a part-Russian-part-Greek tortoise - the two species are different enough that no viable young would come from an accidental mating. :)

The closest relative of the Russian tortoise (Testudo horsfieldii) is the Hermann tortoise (T. hermanni), and unfortunately, they have occasionally formed viable hybrids in captivity. I don't know if those offspring were fertile, though. As for the Greek tortoise (T. graeca), it's more closely related to the marginated and Egyptians tortoises (T. marginata and T. kleinmanni, respectively). However, hybrid offspring of Russian and Greek tortoises have, again unfortunately, been reported in captivity, too:

http://reptile-database.reptarium.cz/species?genus=Testudo&species=horsfieldii

Having said that, I agree with the others that these two guys are pure Russian tortoises. In fact, they appear to be wild-caught, in which case they would not be hybrids. They may, however, come from different populations, so they could just have some noticeable differences between them, but still be conspecifics. From this picture, though, they don't seem that different. Most Russians in the pet trade are wild-caught from Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are from the same region. Differences between them could still be attributable to differences in diet, condition, age, etc. They seem fine, though. :)
 

Tom

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There is a range of color and shapes for russians, but these two look almost identical to me. They are so close that they could be clutchmates that were raised side by side.
 

theTurtleRoom

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
biochemnerd808 said:
BTW: To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a part-Russian-part-Greek tortoise - the two species are different enough that no viable young would come from an accidental mating. :)

The closest relative of the Russian tortoise (Testudo horsfieldii) is the Hermann tortoise (T. hermanni), and unfortunately, they have occasionally formed viable hybrids in captivity. I don't know if those offspring were fertile, though. As for the Greek tortoise (T. graeca), it's more closely related to the marginated and Egyptians tortoises (T. marginata and T. kleinmanni, respectively). However, hybrid offspring of Russian and Greek tortoises have, again unfortunately, been reported in captivity, too:

This is why the genus of many of these species is currently being debated and there are two acceptable genus groups for each of these species. graeca, kleinmanni, and marginata are still listed as Testudo in the newer thinking, while hermanni is Chersine and horsfieldii is Agrionemys. This newer suggestion of genera demonstrates the relations you mention.

For at least 3-4 years now, both the old and new are considered acceptable. I'm sure one day, more work will have been done that demonstrates which way will take over.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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theTurtleRoom said:
This is why the genus of many of these species is currently being debated and there are two acceptable genus groups for each of these species. graeca, kleinmanni, and marginata are still listed as Testudo in the newer thinking, while hermanni is Chersine and horsfieldii is Agrionemys. This newer suggestion of genera demonstrates the relations you mention.

For at least 3-4 years now, both the old and new are considered acceptable. I'm sure one day, more work will have been done that demonstrates which way will take over.

Ah, the debate between the Lumpers and Splitters rages on. ;)

I see no reason to split up this genus. A genus, after all, is meant to contain different species that are closely related. Russians may be closer to Hermanns, but they're still closely related to Greeks, Egyptians, and marginateds, too. I think they all belong in Testudo.
 

theTurtleRoom

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
theTurtleRoom said:
This is why the genus of many of these species is currently being debated and there are two acceptable genus groups for each of these species. graeca, kleinmanni, and marginata are still listed as Testudo in the newer thinking, while hermanni is Chersine and horsfieldii is Agrionemys. This newer suggestion of genera demonstrates the relations you mention.

For at least 3-4 years now, both the old and new are considered acceptable. I'm sure one day, more work will have been done that demonstrates which way will take over.

Ah, the debate between the Lumpers and Splitters rages on. ;)

I see no reason to split up this genus. A genus, after all, is meant to contain different species that are closely related. Russians may be closer to Hermanns, but they're still closely related to Greeks, Egyptians, and marginateds, too. I think they all belong in Testudo.

Haha. The lumpers vs splitters even goes to the species/subspecies level at times.

My preference in this case would be to use the subgenus, which has presented itself in the taxonomy of the Chelodina genus. This way, they'd all still be in the Testudo genus with 3 subgenera to show the relationships between the 5 species.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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theTurtleRoom said:
Haha. The lumpers vs splitters even goes to the species/subspecies level at times.

My preference in this case would be to use the subgenus, which has presented itself in the taxonomy of the Chelodina genus. This way, they'd all still be in the Testudo genus with 3 subgenera to show the relationships between the 5 species.

More like two subgenera, with one clade consisting of Russians and Hermanns, and the other of Greeks, Egyptians, and marginateds.
 

theTurtleRoom

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
theTurtleRoom said:
Haha. The lumpers vs splitters even goes to the species/subspecies level at times.

My preference in this case would be to use the subgenus, which has presented itself in the taxonomy of the Chelodina genus. This way, they'd all still be in the Testudo genus with 3 subgenera to show the relationships between the 5 species.

More like two subgenera, with one clade consisting of Russians and Hermanns, and the other of Greeks, Egyptians, and marginateds.


That could work, too. But, you get my point. I don't see the need for separate genera for each monophyletic clade like some do, but I really like the extra description that can come from a subgenus.
 
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