why basking spot 115 degrees?

[onarock]

What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out. This idea of extreme temp allong with extreme humidity is like turning the hot and cold water handles on your sink on full blast in order to get WARM water. The recommendation that we give our tortoises MID-DAY sun for 8-12 hours a day just doesnt make sense. I keep all my tortoses outside 356 days a year including nights and none of them (including my 10 month old culcatas) subject themselves to the mid-day sun. Besides that, it never gets above 95 degrees here.

Temp is temp regardless of the source. I understand that there are different ways of providing heat and some are better for you or your torts than others, but 80 is 80. Are you saying that you provide 120 degrees of MVB because it more simulates the sun rays or that you get that much more UV penetration?

Your basking spot needs to be in the 100s...at least. I keep mine around 120. Of course, now that they're back outside most of the day...the point is moot! I'll take 75 - 80 degrees of sunlight over 120 degrees of MVB any day!

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

Are you saying that you provide 120 degrees of MVB because it more simulates the sun rays or that you get that much more UV penetration?

Yes to Both! That's precisely what I'm saying! I consider CA, AZ and FL the BEST places in the lower 48 to raise sulcatas or leopards...but we need a little assistance! There is no comparison to the conditions you get in PARADISE!

BTW! If anyone needs a 100W Powersun, I have a spare! I'll ship it to you for $25! Just send me a PM!

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

Jessdawn. I would caution to the side of DeanS. Like I said I dont keep them inside. I was just hoping to get an answer to a question I have asked in the past (still without an answer). Dean has the indoor experience that I do not and he has proven to raise some darn healthy sulcatas.

Neal also makes some good points.

Lol. Ok, so I am just going to stick with the 96 degrees basking temp and lower 70's for Kali's hide. She seems to be comfortable with these temps. If anyone disagrees feel free to explain! Thanks for all if your help!!

 

[John]

RE: Aloe vera

here's my two cents,first let me say i am not an expert nor am i trying too promote anything i'm just gonna put this out there for you all too chew on. why is it that in every place on the planet ALL animals do what ever they can too avoid extreme conditions i.e 120 degree weather or extreme cold weather?these conditions happen they are not within the animals control even desert dwellers need too escape,just because they can survive these conditions does not mean they require them too thrive.if something drastic happens in an animals enviroment climate wise the species may either die out or evolve too meet the change.why does a sidewinder move the way it does?because the sand is darn hot.the sand is not that hot so the snake can survive the snake has found a way to overcome an extreme.so if you are keeping your torts at an extreme are they thriving,surviving or trying too evolve? thanks john

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

The fact of the matter is that I was doing what Tom was doing before I found this site! We both seem to be getting the same results...therefore I see no reason for anyone to do anything but follow this thread...arguably the most important thread on this forum! All questions asked!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1GXFfXICR

And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!

 

[Neal]

RE: Aloe vera

And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!

I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps. When I make suggestions I start with the temperatures, then move on to humidity. BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.

 

[ChiKat]

RE: Aloe vera

What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out.

Very interesting!!

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!

Why do you say this? What if one has had success raising tortoises dry, doesn't that qualify someone to make suggestions or encouragement?

Again! See Tom's Thriving vs Surviving Thread! I have not seen a tortoise yet that was raised dry that didn't exhibit some pyramiding!

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

But, not all questions answered. I still want to know what 110+ degree basking spots do for tortoises. John (squamata) statements are for the most part true. Weather I live in Paradise or not does not diminish the fact theat it rarely gets above 95 degrees here and my tortoses thrive, not survive, but thrive. According to you and the care sheet, I should be providing additional heating outside for my tortoises. I'm thinking of hanging a 200w basking lamp from a pole in my backyard. Untill someone can tell me the benefits of such high basking temps I am going to assume that the recommendations from you and others who promote these extreme conditions are the sum results of those who are either very "green" at keeping tortoises or just don't understand them at all. It seems to me that the constant soaking and spraying and extremely high humidity% are only necessary at that level to combat the extreme stress put on the tortoses shell at 110+ basking. In my 20+ years of tortoise keeping and breeding I have never seen a tortoise take advantage of the extreme conditions that you put your tortoises through.

All questions asked!

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out.

Very interesting!!

You need BOTH! High temps and dry conditions are not going to promote optimum growth/health! Likewise, med-high temps and high humidity are going to promote questionable health! You NEED high temps AND high humiidty to ENSURE a perfectly healthy animal.

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

So, your saying tortoises that exhibit some forms of pyramiding arent thriving? That is laughable. I have 8 platynota two are pyramid all have been kept the same. They dont act any different than the others and all appear to be thriving. But, hey, what do I know.

And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!

Why do you say this? What if one has had success raising tortoises dry, doesn't that qualify someone to make suggestions or encouragement?

Again! See Tom's Thriving vs Surviving Thread! I have not seen a tortoise yet that was raised dry that didn't exhibit some pyramiding!

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.

BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.

Why take baby steps? If they're new to the hobby (or not), they need ALL the facts laid out in front of them NOW!

I'd like to see these smooth, dry tortoises! I can't recall one EVER being mentioned here.

 

[Neal]

RE: Aloe vera

I don't have all the tortoises I was refering to anymore which is why you have never seen it mentioned here before. I do have one and I will get pictures as soon as I can. The whole humidity thing in my mind is debateable, just because you havn't seen or heard of a tortoise raised dry and smooth doesn't mean it's not possible.

You're experienced Dean, you foget what it's like to be new to the hobby. The correlation between high humidity and temperatures is critical, and can be difficult to figure out in some cases. If you havn't established with someone the adaquate temperature range, why would you suggest high humidity in the same breath? Low temps and high humidity are dangerous. There's more than enough information on humidity on this forum, I didn't feel it necessary to explain the importance of it in my post.

I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.

BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.

Why take baby steps? If they're new to the hobby (or not), they need ALL the facts laid out in front of them NOW!

I'd like to see these smooth, dry tortoises! I can't recall one EVER being mentioned here.

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

I am going to take your inability to answer my question regarding 110+ basking as a sign that you just dont know. When you get a logical answer pease tell us we cant wait to hear

What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out.

Very interesting!!

You need BOTH! High temps and dry conditions are not going to promote optimum growth/health! Likewise, med-high temps and high humidity are going to promote questionable health! You NEED high temps AND high humiidty to ENSURE a perfectly healthy animal.

 

[John]

RE: Aloe vera

I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.

BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.

Why take baby steps? If they're new to the hobby (or not), they need ALL the facts laid out in front of them NOW!

I'd like to see these smooth, dry tortoises! I can't recall one EVER being mentioned here.

so where excactly have you published all these facts?other than a public forum.where is the scientific evidence,where did you get yor herp degree?how long have you studied these animals in their natural enviornment. in order for me too except something as fact i need more then two guys word on a public forum.

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

Please Dean tell us these facts. What is the relationship between heat and humidity? For every degree of heat how much humidity do you need to provide to ensure a smooth shell. Quit beating around the bush and tell us your formula

I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.

BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.

Why take baby steps? If they're new to the hobby (or not), they need ALL the facts laid out in front of them NOW!

I'd like to see these smooth, dry tortoises! I can't recall one EVER being mentioned here.

 

[John]

RE: Aloe vera

The fact of the matter is that I was doing what Tom was doing before I found this site! We both seem to be getting the same results...therefore I see no reason for anyone to do anything but follow this thread...arguably the most important thread on this forum! All questions asked!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1GXFfXICR

And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!

i've said it before and here itis again i respect tom's knowledge.that being said this whole thing is not his idea,it is an old idea taken too an extreme i am not convinced it needed too go too.i see no problem with 80-95 degree temps 50-60% humidity and a humid hide.which was all promoted by the fifes and others long ago.you guys are reinventing the wheel and trying too shove it down everyone's throats without any hard proven facts.(a dozen or so torts proves nothing if you don't believe that from me try too publish your work let me know what they say when you present your findings i'm very interested.

---

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: Aloe vera

I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, but my 2cents on this subject is:

I like my indoor habitats to be upwards of 80 degrees for my babies. They are in a Christmas tree storage bin. Its big. and open. If I want the whole habitat to be warm enough, then I have to have the basking spot be 105 degrees or so. The babies don't use that particular spot, but it does manage to keep the rest of the floor of the habitat in the 80's. If I raised the light so it was 80 under the light, then the rest of the habitat would be too cool.

---

 

[DeanS]

RE: Aloe vera

80 - 95 degrees overall is fine! I said they need a basking spot of 100-120! They come from the Sahara! Sometimes the Sahara doesn't get rain for a decade. Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! Why do I have to be published?!? I've worked with animals for more than 35 years. I've worked in reptile facilities! I've worked in zoos! I apologize if you think I'm 'cramming' anything down your throat! In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding! I, for one, don't need information spooned to me like a baby taking his first bite! Give it to me all at once. This is the problem some of you have with Tom and myself (and a few others). Fife set the wheels in motion and Tom and I took it to the next level. Sorry if you were too apprehensive not to take the next logical step. Science is ALL about experimentation. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment. It's a good degree of guesswork! Some of us got it and some of you didn't! Don't sit there and criticize because you don't agree out of stubbornness or because what I said hurt your pride! Try it for yourtselves. Think outside of the box for a change. Just because your hatchlings are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving! EXPERIMENT! Take one or two of your hatchlings and raise them the way Tom and I do! See what happens! Good luck!

 

[onarock]

RE: Aloe vera

Finally someone who knows what hatchlings do in the wild. When did you go to the Sahara? Must have been a really fun trip to go and study these animals in the wild. Can you share with us the pics of the babies in the burrows? I would love to see them. I don't think you need to apologize for cramming stuff down our throats, I think you need to apologize for the mis-information that your providing. No you didnt take it to the next level, you took it to the next extreme! You still have not answered any of my questions. You can list all the facilitys and Zoos you have worked at, but it all means Zero. You first stated that nobody and you mean nobody has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment and then you go on to tell us how how they spend their early years. You Just Loss All Credibility!! You Dont Know Why Your Doing What Your Doing and you cant answer anyones, especially my questions. You Dont Know How The Method Works. You Are Dangerous!!

80 - 95 degrees overall is fine! I said they need a basking spot of 100-120! They come from the Sahara! Sometimes the Sahara doesn't get rain for a decade. Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! Why do I have to be published?!? I've worked with animals for more than 35 years. I've worked in reptile facilities! I've worked in zoos! I apologize if you think I'm 'cramming' anything down your throat! In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding! I, for one, don't need information spooned to me like a baby taking his first bite! Give it to me all at once. This is the problem some of you have with Tom and myself (and a few others). Fife set the wheels in motion and Tom and I took it to the next level. Sorry if you were too apprehensive not to take the next logical step. Science is ALL about experimentation. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment. It's a good degree of guesswork! Some of us got it and some of you didn't! Don't sit there and criticize because you don't agree out of stubbornness or because what I said hurt your pride! Try it for yourtselves. Think outside of the box for a change. Just because your hatchlings are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving! EXPERIMENT! Take one or two of your hatchlings and raise them the way Tom and I do! See what happens! Good luck!