Why do people breed Sulcata's

[-EJ]

This is stupidity at it's best. Send her my email ([email protected]) and I'll place them all in the central to southern Cal area.

This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .

On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.

 

[terryo]

This is stupidity at it's best. Send her my email ([email protected]) and I'll place them all in the central to southern Cal area.

This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .

On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.

Why don't YOU e-mail her and help her out Ed....
http://turtlebunker.com/

 

[Laura]

I took two in from her the last few years. She said I was crazy. But then again she donest have the space for them. So when you live on 8 acers and have a barn like we do.. it is easier. Not EASY, just doable. more so then most people. The heating is always an issue. The $$ is also. Not just for heating but material cost to build something they cant destroy! It can be done and done right, but it can also go very wrong... EDUCATION! is the Key!
Felice is an older lady who does most of what she does on her own. Be kind. If you can truely help her, then by all means do so!! Networking within groups and working TOGETHER is awsome.
When I was building my enclosure and contacted a place in Southern Calif who said they needed homes, they stopped adopting out and doing rescues. They are now concentrating on Education and Conservation issues. Yvonne is also in Central Calif, and Im sure she could use some help occasionally as well! Got a list of people wanting? Be sure the rescues know! The one in the Bay Area of San Fran also needs homes for MANY.. Ed.. I think you are going to be REALLY busy!

---

I will post the Bay Areas contact info and current list in Adoptions.. GO EJ!!! ( not ED)

 

[Candy]

I don't know the point you were trying to make with the cats comment, but an adult female sulcata will lay around 30 eggs in a clutch and she will nest three or four times a year. That would be way more sulcata babies in a year than one female cat can produce.

Yvonne

My point was that a pair of kittens, over the course of 10 years, will produce many more kittens than a pair of baby sulcatas over the same amount of time. The kittens would be multiplying yearly, and those kittens yearly. Nothing would happen with the sulcatas until the 10th year, give or take. The amount of cats (1000's), dogs (1,000's), and sulcatas (0) in shelters and rescues here in Vegas clearly back up this fact.

Call me the bad guy, but in all my attempts, I've never had a female sulcata lay 30 eggs 3 or 4 times a year. And I have a lot of females

I agree with you on one point Tyler...that they will produce that many kittens if you have an irresponsible owner (or breeder). That's why I started this thread is because we're not talking about responsible owners (or breeders here) we're talking about people who try to make a profit at the animals expense. Now you yourself have people on this site who believe you are a reputable breeder so we're probably not talking about you, but how many more are out there who are not? At the reptile show alone I saw a good 300 Sulcata's for sale more then any other tortoise there. Are these breeders giving the best advice in the 15 minutes that it takes to sell one? What about the ones on here who I've seen selling Sulcata babies, are they even caring who there selling to or how these babies will be raised? I don't think so. I prefer people like Danny or Terry who sell their tortoises and then offer to give advice and even websites available so these people can take care of their tortoise properly. I think a lot of people do buy Sulcata's in the moment and that's not a good decision most of the time. Anyway that's just my take. I do know from meeting you that you do care about your tortoises and your wife and your son too. I know that you love reptiles from seeing you at the reptile show. It was nice to see that it's a family affair with you.

---

This is stupidity at it's best. Send her my email ([email protected]) and I'll place them all in the central to southern Cal area.

This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .

On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.

Do they not do all of the things that she stated? Why does that seem stupid? Maybe because she had some sarcasm in her writing, but that doesn't mean that she's not correct. Just because you might have a lot of space for your Sulcata's does not mean that most people do.
I know that this is a species that you obviously enjoy and even seem to love, but that's not what we're posting about we're posting about whether irresponsible people are producing something that might be too much for most people to handle just for profit not because they want to keep this species going. I don't believe most of your breeders care that much when they're selling these.

 

[terryo]

Julie M. posted this today on the LIR group
I still have six here Sohni. Two are big guys, 60-80 pounds that we'll be shipping Delta hopefully next week. Two are about ten pounds that I just the homes I had for fell through but they won't be a problem if I have to keep them here, one is the terribly deformed sick one and a hatchling that I'm hanging onto because I can. I had two hatchlings and placed the other. I almost got two more in last week but luckily the fellow had a friend of his take them and we went over care so things will be changed for them and another today that I told them they need to change things so they will do that and try to hold on to him. This was a real big year for Sulcata's. I haven't gone through my records yet, but I think we had over 30 and about 15 out of state that I have helped or am still helping place. Once things settle down here I'll have time to update all my notes and get a final count.

 

[-EJ]

Why do people have horses or cows...

This is a pretty judgemental post.

Again... Sulcatas used to be rare.

This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.

 

[Yvonne G]

Why do people have horses or cows...
This is a pretty judgemental post.
Again... Sulcatas used to be rare.

But that's the whole point, Ed. If you want a horse and you live in an apartment or in a house in the city on a 50x100 foot lot, you just have to go without getting the horse of your dreams. But the person who lives in an apartment goes ahead and gets the sulcata of their dreams and the poor animal suffers for it.

Yvonne

 

[-EJ]

To put it in perspective... how many Sulcatas are produced a year... how many are a problem?

Many people who buy a Sulcata when they are living in an apt... move on... to a house... with a yard.

Again... a very judgemental point of view.

Why do people have horses or cows...
This is a pretty judgemental post.
Again... Sulcatas used to be rare.

But that's the whole point, Ed. If you want a horse and you live in an apartment or in a house in the city on a 50x100 foot lot, you just have to go without getting the horse of your dreams. But the person who lives in an apartment goes ahead and gets the sulcata of their dreams and the poor animal suffers for it.

Yvonne

 

[Meg90]

You keep saying how many end up in shelters?

And we all know the answer: NOT many.

But why is that? Because people let them loose, or frankly, kill them with bad care. How hard is it to kill a young tortoise? Not hard. Even with complete and proper care, some still perish. I cant imagine the death rate of hatchling sulcata who's owners don't know, and could care less what the proper care is.

The bottom line, is sulcata are cheap. Cheap cheap cheap. I've seen them as low as 40$. At that price, its a throw away pet. Just like an Ig. Get em while they are cute, for cheap, and when they become a nuisance, OH WELL. It was only 40$.

I've seen it over and over and over again. WC Russians are more expensive than little CB sulcata.

 

[Laura]

I think a lot more die at the hands of the naive or un caring then anyone knows or relalizes.. or even cares.. Doesnt make it right.
Too bad people wouldnt look at them like a horse.. and have a boarding facility to have them at and PAY for the care.. but it will never happen..

 

[Candy]

I would like to ask Ed if they're rare anymore? The answer to that question is no they are not they are very popular as Oh sooooo cute little tortoises that grow up to be huge. Most people take a while to get from an apt. to a house Ed sorry.

 

[TylerStewart]

As a general request to everyone against breeding them, I would like to know a realistic solution to the problem. You're never going to get everyone to stop breeing them. If you're able to convince a few breeders to stop, there are hundreds more people that are still going to be producing them. Should the lowest price retail vendors be the target of your campaign? The people that sell them as a good investment? The people that produce the most quantity are people you've surely never heard of, and nothing is going to stop them.

 

[Meg90]

This wasn't a debate to brain storm ideas HOW to stop them.

It was a debate on WHY people do it at all.

I think we all know that we're not going to stop those big producers from hatching out thousands of little sullys to make a quick buck.

But I was stunned that we still have people on this forum that think is OK to keep saturating an already saturated marker with young sulcata, when so many need homes, and so many are already in bad homes being mistreated.

 

[TylerStewart]

Well, I won't speak for everyone else that sells them, but I sell them because that's the species that many people want. People love the species and people love the size. I have well over a dozen species and sulcatas are probably my favorite - from the standpoint of enjoying a tortoise that I can interact with. The fact that an animal here and there end up in rescues, and a few outspoken people make it sound like there's a huge overpopulation of them with no homes is inaccurate.

 

[chadk]

Here in WA, the only area i'm familiar with, it is hard to find them. I've been watching CL and rescues closely for the last year and found 2 I could rescue, but had lots of competition from others who wanted them. Then had another that really NEEDED to be rescued, but he was trying to sell it. Had him convinced to give it to me, but at the last minute he wanted money as he suddenly had another buyer interested.... But that little Thunder needed some TLC or he would probably die. So I took him. So with much searching this year, I was able to get 3. I've seen a few offered for sale - usually over a hundred dollars - usually more if you take the supplies. Recently some babies were listed for 75, but that is as low as I've seen.

I wonder if everyone stopped breeding, would the black market on the WC become more active?

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm sure its regional. The folks in WA who don't do it right, probably end up killing them rather than giving them to a rescue.

Here in Central Calif, where the weather is really good for eight or nine months out of the year, there are many more throw away tortoises that end up in the rescues. Its usually the larger ones that are starting to cause trouble at home that people get rid of, but occasionally I'll get a smaller one too.

And in Southern Calif. The American Tortoise Rescue had to quit taking in sulcatas because they were starting to get over run with them.

We're never going to get people to stop breeding them, because there is a market for them. Take a look at this site:

http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/egg-laying-sulcata-tortoises.cfm

He doesn't say what he does with all the babies.

Yvonne

 

[chadk]

It is kinda interesting that 2 of my 3 were imported from other states and eventually the owners could not longer care for them here (apartments). One came from Cali and the other from Nevada (or Utah, ...I forget).

 

[katesgoey]

I don't think the debate should be limited to WHY because I think that answers are obvious and rather pointlessly frustrating without contemplating Who, What, When, and Hows.

I think Laura's on to something - let's open a boarding facility for Sulcatas owners who live in the City. Doubt anyone would pay much for it and I wonder how often they would visit their boarders?

Chad has a good point about the black market if breeding were too limited.

Unfortunately there will always be sulcatas and other animals who need help from someone knowledgeable about their care because of those who are unknowledgeable or just don't care. For centuries there have been unwanted, neglected and abused children in the world while millions more are born daily - unfortunately, that will never end either. I think its more productive to focus on how to help care for those in need and venting is a release but not a solution.

 

[terryo]

posted today by J.M.

Is that guy still so disillusioned that he thinks the overpopulation
> of Sulcata tortoises is not a problem here in the states?
> Unfortunately that's how most breeders are, they turn a blind eye to
> the problem because they make a few bucks. Sad that they have no
> regard for the animals future that they are breeding. Idiots! The Lot
> f them!
>
> I've been lucky so far, but finding good homes is hard. I get quite a
> few that seem to be collectors and don't care how many they take in or
> what gender and I won't adopt to them. I'm real picky about where the
> tortoises go so that makes it a bit harder to place them, but I want
> to do my best to make sure they go to good homes where they are not
> going to be bred and they will hopefully be long time homes. Because
> they live so long I can't expect them to be permanent homes, but at
> least for as long as the keepers can care for them.
>
> It really helps that others have referred us to those looking for
> tortoises and others have placed our ad, the Sulcata Challenge, in
> Craiglist.org in other states. That reminds me, can somebody post that
> down in Modesto, CA area? Someone is selling them as a garden
> tortoise. Yikes! Yeah, they'll take care of your garden all right!
>

 

[katesgoey]

Sorry for my ignorance Terry, but who is J.M. and where was this "posted today?" Let J.M. know that I think that poster also owns or knows the owner of a pet shop that moved out of the area. Not sure but the terms used are familiar to ones I heard uttered at that store before it moved.